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172flogger

1/48 Eduard MIG-21 MF Bis SMT

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That may work but when I spend 60-70 usd on a kit it should be right the first time.

Thank you! My point exactly. That's why I don't buy Hobby Loss and Bumpeter for the most part.

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Drawings done in ten minutes. The bis nose is a bit caricatural but you get the idea3rdgennosevs4thgennosep.jpg

Edited by Laurent

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Ahoj to everyone,

Yesterday I was surprised to see on the Eduard's blog that my nose (Gabor's nose) is the main question of the day. Sorry I could not answer immediately but this morning I had to go and make a few snaps to illustrate my point.

So what it is about Gabor's nose??? Here it is. I hope this answers all questions.

Gaborsnose.jpg

If there are any more questions about my nose I am willing to speak about it. :D :D :D

Best regards

Gabor

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Well, it seems Gabor's nose matches bis one pretty good. :D

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While I was taking some provocative photos of my nose I took the liberty to take some other revealing pictures of few things around. I hope they can answer a few questions. It is not my task to convince anyone about anything but this time I offer you the chance to come with me and make your own measurements. I am just your hands in this case, you can do all the rest for yourself. It is possible to make assumptions, have theories, views and opinions (pleas dont have that D Hary quote again)by having a look at photos but there is a more analitical aproach to this question. I prefer the later. Here you have the chance to make your own measurements. Hope this can help a few people in building an accurate MiG-21 bis from what ever kit they like.

Now this is the easy part. It has been know for ages that the nose ring, or intake ring of the MiG-21 MF (Type 96A) and the MiG-21 bis (Type75AP) is different. This is the part that holds together and connects the main assembly parts of the fuselage nose section. Hope that you can read the meter, I am just holding it for you.

Here is the nose ring of one of the MiG-21 MF's as used by the Hungarian AF.

MFringsize.jpg

Now to the MiG-21 bis (Type 75AP), the ring here is shorter and bigger in diameter.

MiG-21bisintakering.jpg

This was the easy part of the job. The nose section is a bit tricky but it is possible to make it visible. Of course one can go out with a power tool and cut sections to make perfect measurements. I would not like to do that at the moment, but one day . . .

A matt surface hides its true lines but still one can add a grid to it which will show the details. You can do that with a laser, or the traditional measuring device as used in all air forces to control and measure the distortions of an aircraft structure. Both of them are good but you will not see it directly here. Later on one can say whatever he wants, you will not be able to look into the instrument, just have to take his word form it.

I have chosen to add a grid to the nose in a non destructive form with some black insulating tape. The centre line on top was taken as a starting point and going down to the center measuring point of the side of the intake every 10 cm a tape was attached going backward 50-60 cm. While they started parallel at the other end I had to compensate for the increase in diameter so the lines went symetrically backwards in a slight V shape, distributed equally between the top and the bottom marks. Also, small marks were added once again at 10 cm intervals (going backwards) to show the distance from the zero point, in this case the intake lip of the MiG-21 bis. The same procedure was carried out on an MF and a bis aircraft. Photos were taken from the same distance (as far away as I coud get to minimise distortion) in the same direction and from the same level. In case of the side view it was almost at a right angle to the longitudional axis of the aircraft, and in the middle of the area in question. The top line giving a horizon, just visible.

So here is the MF in a side view:

MFnoseside.jpg

Once again the second is the bis:

bisnoseside.jpg

In each case the marks were numbered for easy refeerence.

Now to an approximate 45 degree angle of the two aircraft. Yes, I know they are not exactly at the same angle but still it is the best that I could do in close to freezing temperature and little time to prepare the action.

The MF nose:

MFfront45.jpg

and the bis:

bisnose45.jpg

Also from the front. I was surprised to see the details when "developing" the films on my computer. On the last two lines one can see the shape of the nose curvature and also the corresponding marks on the fuselage side, so you know exactly where and what starts.

The MF:

MFnosefront.jpg

and the MiG-21 bis nose:

bisnosefront.jpg

This is not the best photo for comparison but at least it shows the two noses side by side. I dont like it since they are at a different distance which distorts the shape, but still. I see a difference and I know that the construction of the two fuselages is different. What do you think?

MFandbisnose.jpg

I hope you liked the show, this is the closest I could take you to the real aircraft.

Dont forget that the MF and the bis differ not only in the nose but in many other respects (apart from the new spine and the nose ring)!

Now to the question of my nose . . . :D :) :D

Best regards and Ahoj

Gabor

Edited by ya-gabor

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:lol:

Thanks Gabor

Edited by Laurent

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I think Gabor's latest research seals the deal for me beyond question. What Eduard are giving us, in spite of their claims, is a model INACCURATE BY DESIGN, NOT ACCIDENT.

Not a happy bunny.

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I understand that there are business decisions to be made, and limited resources to work with. But I think the problem a lot of people seem to have is that several times in the past, the principles at Eduard have told us (in so many words) that they were aware of the fairly significant differences between the MF and the bis, and that they planned to do the bis right instead of going with their original intention of using the same core set of molds for all later variants. Now the story has changed, and they're trying to justify their change of heart by saying that it just doesn't make that much difference.

Maybe it doesn't, but then again, maybe it does. When your aim is to put out the be-all and end-all - dare I say it, the mother of all MiG-21 kits - and when you tell the community of modelers who are keenly interested in this (arguably) most important combat jet of the past 50+ years that you're going to go out of your way to do it right.... and then at the last minute you decide to cheap out and not do it right... well, I think you need to expect some flak for that decision. And very rightfully so.

In this case, doing it right *would* cost more (it often doesn't). But as at least one person posted here, and as I suspect many of us who are huge fans of the MiG-21 family would agree, many people would be willing to pay a little more for a really, truly, dead-nuts accurate kit of the last and best variant of the MiG-21. Fully half of the ones I'm interested in are bis's. But as it now stands, we're still going to be paying a premium price for a model that's pretty good. But we (at least I) will always know that it could have been 100% but for a conscious decision on Eduard's part.

Eduard, you still have the ability to do this right. Nobody here can know all the things that go into your decision making process. Undoubtedly there are limited resources to put into this project. But if you did choose to do what you said you were going to do to start with, I think the goodwill and positive PR generated would *far* outweigh the cost of the tooling involved. I'm more than willing to wait another few months for a bis that's really a bis. It's not as if you don't have more than enough data to go on.

Just my $.02...

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I understand that there are business decisions to be made, and limited resources to work with. But I think the problem a lot of people seem to have is that several times in the past, the principles at Eduard have told us (in so many words) that they were aware of the fairly significant differences between the MF and the bis, and that they planned to do the bis right instead of going with their original intention of using the same core set of molds for all later variants. Now the story has changed, and they're trying to justify their change of heart by saying that it just doesn't make that much difference.

Maybe it doesn't, but then again, maybe it does. When your aim is to put out the be-all and end-all - dare I say it, the mother of all MiG-21 kits - and when you tell the community of modelers who are keenly interested in this (arguably) most important combat jet of the past 50+ years that you're going to go out of your way to do it right.... and then at the last minute you decide to cheap out and not do it right... well, I think you need to expect some flak for that decision. And very rightfully so.

In this case, doing it right *would* cost more (it often doesn't). But as at least one person posted here, and as I suspect many of us who are huge fans of the MiG-21 family would agree, many people would be willing to pay a little more for a really, truly, dead-nuts accurate kit of the last and best variant of the MiG-21. Fully half of the ones I'm interested in are bis's. But as it now stands, we're still going to be paying a premium price for a model that's pretty good. But we (at least I) will always know that it could have been 100% but for a conscious decision on Eduard's part.

Eduard, you still have the ability to do this right. Nobody here can know all the things that go into your decision making process. Undoubtedly there are limited resources to put into this project. But if you did choose to do what you said you were going to do to start with, I think the goodwill and positive PR generated would *far* outweigh the cost of the tooling involved. I'm more than willing to wait another few months for a bis that's really a bis. It's not as if you don't have more than enough data to go on.

Just my $.02...

Very well said Jennings, hope Eduard is listening.

Brett,

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Based on all this, I think I can live with Eduard's decision. Going with the MF nose geometry while incorrect, just isn't a deal breaker.

But regardless, I would like to thank Gabor for taking the time to do this work in the field and then post it on this thread. Some of the other pics / descriptions really didn't demonstrate the subtle differences in the nose section of the Bis vrs the others. Gabor's pictures have perfectly illustrated the difference between the two.

Thanks again,

John

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I agree - Gabor, you've done yeoman work on this. Thanks very much for all of it. Very enlightening.

I'm sure a lot of people reading this thread will be perfectly fine with Eduard's choice. Had they said all along that it was simply too expensive to tool a new fuselage for the bis, I might have been okay with it. But to say you're going to do something, then change your mind, then try to justify your decision with obfuscation and excuses just isn't good business as far as I'm concerned. I can't get away with that in my work.

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First off, Gabor thank you for taking the time and the excellent results which made it clear what is different.

The sad part is that we now know up front that an aftermarket nose must be made for those that want the accuracy avoided by Eduard.

Regards,

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thank you so much Gabor to share with us your investigations

the black tape demonstration really shows the nose curvature difference between those variants.

...i know that if i buy the BIS kit from Eduard, i won't be able to let the nose "as is"...

i hope there'll be someone to come up with an affordable solution before it end's up on my workbench!

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Nice comparison Gabor. But why zero on the measure scale is not placed to the same point? Wouldn't be better to place the zero point at the rear edge of the intake lip?

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Based on all this, I think I can live with Eduard's decision. Going with the MF nose geometry while incorrect, just isn't a deal breaker.

John

I have to agree entirely with John. Gabor's work is wonderfull, but not much use in my world. With all the lines and dots, on photos which even the smallest as seen on my screen are three times the size of the model, the difference is only slightly visible. I accidentally sand off more than the difference in cleaning up seams, so for me this is a storm in a teacup.

I'll buy it or I won't, and don't blame Eduard for deciding that a fraction of a millimetre isn't worth an extra $100k or whatever the mould would cost. If I do buy it, and if I care to also make the *other* changes Gabor says are necessary, would this kit or another kit be a better starting point?

Shane

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I have wrote what I have on Eduards Blog page. As well as about their mentioning of Gabor, which was very cheeky from Eduard!

But now I would like to ask you MF or bis? On first look... dont research or check the net. Laurent and Gabor be quiet! Pleasee!!

3f5715c92071.jpg

Edited by bungynik

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Thank you Gabor for this great photos and all!! :worship:

And what about main wheel hubs on the "bis" ?? Is it or not the same one as on the "MF"??

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Ahoj to everyone,

Yesterday I was surprised to see on the Eduard's blog that my nose (Gabor's nose) is the main question of the day. Sorry I could not answer immediately but this morning I had to go and make a few snaps to illustrate my point.

So what it is about Gabor's nose??? Here it is. I hope this answers all questions.

Gaborsnose.jpg

If there are any more questions about my nose I am willing to speak about it. :D :D :D

Best regards

Gabor

You should put some tapes on your nose as welll... just to show us that this is not same one as Eduard'd nose. :rofl:

Well it seam that Eduard adopted the well known Police rule, that you can distinguish the people by eyes or ears. Police do not care about nose for identification.

Edited by bungynik

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Nice comparison Gabor. But why zero on the measure scale is not placed to the same point? Wouldn't be better to place the zero point at the rear edge of the intake lip?

Hi Tango,

A good point. Zero was taken to be the front edge of the bis intake ring and to compare the two different versions I wanted to have a base line from which to start. The ring of the MF is longer then that of the bis so the zero point was further in from the front edge of the MF intake. Mind you this was not a precision measuring this time (I did that in the spring in preparation for the Eudard project) just to show approximately what the shape difference is and to have the grid as an aid in this process. This was just a quick idea with no preplaning so there are mistakes in the process. The tape itself is 15 mm wide, for a precise measurement I would not use it, this is just a SHAPE DEMONSTRATION. You can see that I did not cut precisely same lenghts of the tape, in near zero temperature I did not think it would be that important.

It is a good point to have zero from the start of the fuselage panel after the nose ring but this zero point would not be a common to the two types since there is a completely different diameter. Also the curvature of the nose rings is very different which also adds to the shape, you would not like to leave this out from the equation.

Hope to make some corrections this evening to the photos to show some more detail and correct some of my mistakes from yesterday.

Best regards

Gabor

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And what about main wheel hubs on the "bis" ?? Is it or not the same one as on the "MF"??

Nope but they are MF <-> bis interchangeable. I believe that Piotrek S gave this info here years ago.

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