bungynik Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) Thank you for the link Libor. I've posted on your blob already but here it's easier to post pictures. MF CAD vs "real BIS" Either there's something wrong with the way my brain interprets what my eyes see, either it's the worst manifestation of "mauvaise foi" (insincerness in English ?) that I have seen for some time. Everything is OK with your braim. CAD drawings are not good at all. It is false interpretation of bis vs MF. It looks like the damage control CAD. First, blue field is not correct for MF, And second, bis nose is shorter than MF. Look at the following drawing based on photos. Red is MF, Yellow is bis! Edited November 28, 2011 by bungynik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 That one nails it Gabor! Thanks for posting... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) This one is with original size of Gabor images posted here! Pitty Gabor didn't took the photos of whole noses of MF and bis with the same precision. Than the drawings would show the full difference between the MF and "Gabor" nose! :) Edited November 28, 2011 by bungynik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) Look at the following drawing based on photos. Red is MF, Yellow is bis! Thanks for your efforts bungynik but I'm afraid that this type of Photoshop job is the kind that make the non Rivet Counters (and Eduard ?) laugh: compare the relative dimensions red-yellow distance and the overall nose cross section. I think that Gabor's photos are too close to the intake lip to put things in perspective and that's why I've posted the Airliners.net+hunavia.hu photos. Edited November 28, 2011 by Laurent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deino Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 You guys are really funny and I think Jennings nailed that debate right on spot ! Thanks for Your argument on "how some brains do work !" but honestly I can't understand such statements .... ... Hopefully we get brassin or aftermarket soon as I wont buy bis kit in current form. ... especially since some of You seem to have waited for years for such a brilliant MiG-21 kit. Now You have one and - regardless the reason why the kit-manufactor decided to got that way - it has only such minor flaws in comparision to everthing You had before, that it shouldn't be a real problem to solve for a real modeller. Deino Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) that it shouldn't be a real problem to solve for a real modeller. It's gonna be a very messy job like the one Yufei did on his Bilek MiG-19PM to represent the tubular nose. You'd have to glue plastic card all around the front nose to add plastic, put tons of putty, sand like a mad man and rescribe the plastic+putty mix to restore the panel lines. A real pain I'd say. Edited November 28, 2011 by Laurent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Libor ? since you're here, would it be possible to have the same picture you have provided without the PVD boom base ? It partially hides the nose curvature. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deino Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 It's gonna be a very messy job like the one Yufei did on his Bilek MiG-19PM to represent the tubular nose. You'd have to glue plastic card all around the front nose to add plastic, put tons of putty, sand like a mad man and rescribe the plastic+putty mix to restore the panel lines. A real pain I'd say. Agreed and I won't do it since - maybe I'm one of those, who can't see that difference (or at least I'm not annoyed by it) - but in comparison to the Academy ket we had before ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 - but in comparison to the Academy ket we had before ... I agree on this point. And all this MiG-21 nose discussion show that the Academy kit doesn't have a bis nose. The Academy kit is an MF with a "bissed" spine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Libor H Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Libor ? since you're here, would it be possible to have the same picture you have provided without the PVD boom base ? It partially hides the nose curvature. Will try Laurent. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Thanks for your efforts bungynik but I'm afraid that this type of Photoshop job is the kind that make the non Rivet Counters (and Eduard ?) laugh: compare the relative dimensions red-yellow distance and the overall nose cross section. I think that Gabor's photos are too close to the intake lip to put things in perspective and that's why I've posted the Airliners.net+hunavia.hu photos. Well, I said that i am sorry I didn't have the photos of the complete nose... maybe Gabor can help. We don't have MF or M in Serbia any more. But look at the difference in upper part of the nose and then take in consideration that intake diameter of bis is 3cm larger and you can figure out that this yellow red distance is not small at all because you have to take in consideration the difference in bottom part of the nose and it will give you an idea about the shape difference. You must understand that this difference will be insignificant if bis have the same shape of nose, but considering that bis nose shape is different, this deviation is actually visible... at least for somebody who care about MiG-21 as well as if somebody see the modeling as precision work. Actually, if Eduard didn't made, now seems negative promotion of NEW bis in past months, we will not be in position to discuss here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 So now we're arguing about the photos that are being used to prove the point that's already been proven? Come on folks. Let's not lose sight of the issue at hand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
toniosky Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Who will see a difference between the 2 noses once the kit built and painted ? Nobody ! Thank you Mr Eduard for this awesome kit Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjc2278304 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I say again, 60-70usd for a kit that's not right by choice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sebastijan Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I think I cracked what's this disscussion is all about - you guys are arguing about the shape of a MiG-21bis nose while Eduard is actually releasing MiG-21BIS model. So does anyone have any BIS model Fishbeds sitting in the museum somewhere close for measurement of the nose, or will we have to trust Libor and Eduard that BIS nose is actually different than bis one? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Who will see a difference between the 2 noses once the kit built and painted ? Nobody ! You must be right. Nobody can tell the difference between a Su-9 nose and a Su-11 nose. Nobody can tell the difference between between a P-51D nose and a P-51H nose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) Good evening all, Sorry I had a long weekend away form the net and all the hustle about the noses. Or to be more precise I went to Bratislava in Slovakia for their anual Plastic Zima (Plastic winter) modelling show and my public execution by fans who see no difference in the noses. :) It was fun (not the execution) and lots of nice kits as well as lots of questions on the MiG-21 bis. It was nice to meet with Martin Cerny in person as well as lots of other modellers whom I have know only from forums before. Reading through the posts above, just few comments: - no, I did not take full views of the intake, since there was no poin in doing it. The quarter of the intake that photos were made of perfectly represent the intake shape differences. It is symetrical so there is no point in doing a full view of the nose. Also for it to be accurate one would have to use traditional measuring technique and not a camera. As stated before the photos were taken from the greatest possible distance, same level and same position to minimise the distortion caused by the tradition lens of the photographic camera. Even though they look like a detail photo from a close range they are at the limit of the camera. If I was to do a full nose profile the distortion would be far greater, that would be a problem in its own. There could be a short cut with a composite photo made from several pictures taken at different levels to minimise the distortion and show the full (and almost true) side view but as I said it was near freezing and it was not a premeditated attack on the MF and bis noses just an idea turned into reality. I believe the point was made with the photos and it is up to everyone to make their own decision if they want to convert the nose or build it as it is in the box. While in Bratislava I have acquired a great photoetched set (detail set and accessories set) for the 144 scale MiG-21, a decal sheet from the now Hungarian owned KP Models in 144 for the same MiG-21 kit, the Begemot MiG-21 stencil sheet in 48 and lots of spare instruments, fine plastic strips and so on. One last note on the bis question, it is not only the nose but lots of other things too, but I had a list of them a few pages ago. Best regards Gabor P.s. how can one compare and see the difference of two kits with the same fuselage? We are not speaking about the spine fuel tank here, are we? If you do a mock up scale version of the MiG-21 bis nose in 48th scale and put it next to the MF then one can ask if there is a difference or not. Edited November 28, 2011 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pollie Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Who will see a difference between the 2 noses once the kit built and painted ? Nobody ! Ehhhhr, no, but that's because both kits have the same fuselage???? That's the entire point of this discussion! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ch9862 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 It's an inferior product. Much like Vegemite. Yup - Marmite FTW! Here's one of my bike jerseys: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) Who will see a difference between the 2 noses once the kit built and painted ? Nobody ! And you know this to be true how, exactly? You presume to speak for everyone, when clearly you're not qualified (any more than I am) to speak for everyone. Edited November 29, 2011 by Jennings Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mario krijan Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Now i realize why I take photos of MiG-21 noses, because i didnt see any differncies :wub: Yes there is difference for sure Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mario krijan Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
toadwbg Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 One of those noses has a shark mouth and the other one doesn't :). LOL! Seriously, AWSOME pics, thanks for sharing. at this point I feel we are beating a dead horse. We all agree there is a difference and the difference is well documented. Eduard has stated there is no tooling change for the upcomming release, much to the comunities displeasure. Time to move on or provide an out-of-box solution. I wish I had a $1000 prize to award for a solution, I might have 1000 pennies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pollie Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 at this point I feel we are beating a dead horse. We all agree there is a difference and the difference is well documented. Eduard has stated there is no tooling change for the upcomming release, much to the comunities displeasure. Time to move on or provide an out-of-box solution. I wish I had a $1000 prize to award for a solution, I might have 1000 pennies. Well said. I'm afraid that people who don't see the difference by now will never grasp it. I am looking forward to their PFM, to see what has been changed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) I am looking forward to their PFM, to see what has been changed. New sprue with fin, spine, IP, IP coaming and probably a GP-9 gun pod I guess. I'm more curious about what will be done on the F-13 since almost everything will have to be redone. Edited November 29, 2011 by Laurent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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