Libor H Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Libor, i have question for you if it isn't Company Secret. :) It is a bit off-topic from MiG-21, but somewhat related too. What i am wondering is how Brassin comes to be? It appears that the item is designed in 3D then printed out in a 3D printer, right? For example on MiG-29UB kit i got recently, one can see some traces of 3D printing (small thin horizontal "lines" of plastic that stick very slightly out) on two parts, in other parts, you can see no traces of that at all! I have thought that technology is not yet good enough to leave it all trace-free, but most parts appear trace-free. Is the parts in any way "treated" after being printed to get rid of those lines? I don't ask because it is a problem, not at all (the only traces i have found of those lines are on two MiG-29UB cockpit parts), i am just curious. :) Btw, i got MiG-29 and MiG-21 wheels recently as well, and they are perfect. Yep Berkut, Gabor is right. Brassin sets do not have anything in common with 3D printers. They are all casted. I do know what effect/rippling you are reffering to, but I have no clue why this happens from time to time. Will ask though. Regarding the 3D printers - this technology is not yet on such level so it could be used within our manufacturing. Resolution quality, production time, these are the factors which makes casted resin parts win over 3D printers. For now.... ;) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Otto Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 There are actually 3D printers which are a superior quality today. On modern printers you can set the resolution. We just bought one at work for $650,000 that will print parts in a resolution of 0.0005" (0.013mm) BUT it takes a couple of hours to print out a part one inch cubed. This means that an ejection seat in 1:48 would theoretically cost about $100US. This is only used for ultra accurate prototypes. Such as making the prototype ejection seat for making the silicone molds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
toadwbg Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) Cool stuff. We are that much closer to Star-Trek teleporters ! Beam me up Scotty Given the technology curve, I wonder theoretically how many Years we are away from that? Using computer processing power as an example (Moore's Law?) maybe that puts us 100 years away? That's a guess mind you! Edited December 13, 2011 by toadwbg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Berkut Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Yep Berkut, Gabor is right. Brassin sets do not have anything in common with 3D printers. They are all casted. I do know what effect/rippling you are reffering to, but I have no clue why this happens from time to time. Will ask though. Regarding the 3D printers - this technology is not yet on such level so it could be used within our manufacturing. Resolution quality, production time, these are the factors which makes casted resin parts win over 3D printers. For now.... ;) I think you both misunderstood me. I never meant that the finished product you get in the package is actually printed. I am aware of that it is casted and made of resin. What i asked is if master for the product, which you take copies of and sell, is 3D printed. What i am curious about is how master is treated to get rid of those lines. Or afterwork as Gabor says. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Otto Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 we soak our parts in NaOH for about 6 hours and than we soda blast them at low pressure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RAIN Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Hurting sales at all? No way, I super highly doubt it. I for one had just finished my OEZ kit (which sucks), and then "Pow", Eduard comes out with a new MIG-21...I bought two right away, and they are stunning, just stunning. It's a beautiful kit. To many complaints, and if you really like the OEZ or Academy kit, then build them, they are available to you. I don't feel that Eduard was "holier than thou" either. They have business reasons, practicality reasons, and plain old fashion bottom line $$$ reasons to not make every adjustment...they are still the best in the business even if they are pricey. I simply read this thread because I get a kick out of how serious some people take this kit (a little beyond the hobby and more like a personal attack on family). I can't tell any nose difference between a bis (BIS? lol), MF, SMT, etc.....whatever floats your boat. The kit is amazing, and if you don't like it, either fix it with your skills, or move on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
toadwbg Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Rainman- we already have moved on...thanks for digging it back up... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Otto Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Here's my 1:48 MiG-21. I wonder if Eduard has this in their T.O. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Concerning Brassin I have also seen some signs of "layering" but this could also be from machining in production. If you have a closer look at the surface of the MF kit you will see it too. That one is certainly not a 3D print. Those two phenomena are not related. I'm 100% sure the Brassin stuff is done using CAD and 3D printing technology. The ***very*** faint lines you see (if you look really, really hard) in the MiG-21 plastic are due to the process used to make the mold cavity, not because it was 3D printed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Otto Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 today, all mold cavities are EDMd with carbon. There should be no lines at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
toadwbg Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 today, all mold cavities are EDMd with carbon. There should be no lines at all. OK- I have no idea what that is! My tooling days are long behind me and maybe we call the material by something else here stateside. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SoarinSukhoi Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Any major issues with Eduard's SMT? Also what were some common loadouts on the SMT? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madcow Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 A bit O/T, but I just wanted to say that I just finished painting my MF cockpit using the 1:1 Gunze Sangyo's mix of H25 (Sky Blue) and H46 (Emerald Green) that I had read about here on ARC and other websites. The mix matches the PE colour perfectly. Sure, many don't like the colour of the PE parts but if you are wondering, like I was, what's the best way to get the rest of the cockpit matching the PE parts, look no more. Just mix the paints :) Ricardo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
toadwbg Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 A bit O/T, but I just wanted to say that I just finished painting my MF cockpit using the 1:1 Gunze Sangyo's mix of H25 (Sky Blue) and H46 (Emerald Green) that I had read about here on ARC and other websites. The mix matches the PE colour perfectly. Sure, many don't like the colour of the PE parts but if you are wondering, like I was, what's the best way to get the rest of the cockpit matching the PE parts, look no more. Just mix the paints :) Ricardo I mixed these colors and got pretty close too: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Those two phenomena are not related. I'm 100% sure the Brassin stuff is done using CAD and 3D printing technology. The ***very*** faint lines you see (if you look really, really hard) in the MiG-21 plastic are due to the process used to make the mold cavity, not because it was 3D printed. Hi Jennings, I know they are not related technologies! I did not say so that the kit was done with 3D printing! Altough they are both related in a very direct way and feed from the same 3D model of the MiG-21 in the computer only the "output" hardware is different. One is a multi axis machining tool and the other one is a 3D printer. Concerning the Brassin we should ask Eduard (as did Berkut). But Libor said its not 3D. I am not convinced, but it is more likely that it is a combination of traditional mould making (this is what I was referring to in connection with the kit surface) technology and some 3D printing as well as other added bits and pieces. I think from our (model builder) point of view the end result (the Brassin kit) is what's interesting and not the technology by which it is made. Not for me anyway. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Libor H Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Hi Jennings, I know they are not related technologies! I did not say so that the kit was done with 3D printing! Altough they are both related in a very direct way and feed from the same 3D model of the MiG-21 in the computer only the "output" hardware is different. One is a multi axis machining tool and the other one is a 3D printer. Concerning the Brassin we should ask Eduard (as did Berkut). But Libor said its not 3D. I am not convinced, but it is more likely that it is a combination of traditional mould making (this is what I was referring to in connection with the kit surface) technology and some 3D printing as well as other added bits and pieces. I think from our (model builder) point of view the end result (the Brassin kit) is what's interesting and not the technology by which it is made. Not for me anyway. Best regards Gabor I meant Brassin products are not output of 3D printer(s). Of course they are completely made utilizing CAD technologies. However the final production process in not based on 3D printing tech. IMHO, it will take some time before this tech is able to produce details we'd like to deliver... Btw. we're just about to release new article on Eduard Blog - Brassin Sets for MiG-21BIS. Stay tuned for the content, it will be published, hopefully, during today. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Libor H Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Aaaaand, released: Brassin Sets for MiG-21BIS - Martin Ferkl's short post on upcoming Brassin sets for the new MiG-21BIS, with several render images. Link to article So what do you think? Crisp? Lame? Unreal? Looking forward to your replies guys! Btw. it's more likely you'll get an answer from different person than me(Vladimir Sulc, Martin Ferkl) using the comments on Eduard Blog. So if you have any really important questions (are there any different?:) ), make them worth;) I'm not trying to pull discussion away from this board or anything similar. It's just that I'm the only one who does have some time to participate on forums etc... Usually, I do transcribe important questions directly to Vladimir Sulc, however it would save up a ton of time if you could post on Eduard Blog;) Anyway, let us know what you think anywhere you want! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pollie Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Thanks for the info Libor. Will there be any cockpits for the MiG-21bisD or Romanian LanceR in the Brassin range? Or are these under consideration? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) I've ordered the kit so that I can see if I can do something about the nose. I think that I'll adopt a similar strategy as with the 1/72 Zvezda kit. I didn't like the look of the intake because the profile of the intake wasn't rounded enough... ... so I've cut slits perpendicular to the plane of the intake and glued the strips In the 1/48 Eduard, I think that I'll cut slits again and insert thin spacers in them to make the front nose more tubular and make the curvature more "localized" on the intake ring area. Edited December 15, 2011 by Laurent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Libor H Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Thanks for the info Libor. Will there be any cockpits for the MiG-21bisD or Romanian LanceR in the Brassin range? Or are these under consideration? Cockpit for BIS D version is part of the current kit - 8232 MiG-21BIS 1/48 (plastic parts + some PE details). We don't intend doing Brassin details for Lancer, nor the BIS D version... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gene K Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 I think that I'll cut slits again and insert thin spacers in them to make the front nose more tubular and make the curvature more "localized" on the intake ring area. Laurent, I ALWAYS enjoy your posts!! But, I don't quite understand what you mean by making the nose more "tubular", or by making the curvature more "localized". Could you elaborate a little, please? Also, why make slits and then insert spacers - seems counterproductive.... Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Otto Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Take a look at the pictures of the real airplane some pages ago. The nose is not so tapered on the real airplane as it is on the model. That is actually a pretty nifty way of doing it. The nice part about the larger scale is that you can cut more slits and keep things more round. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
A.C.Acikgoz Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) I do not understand why a company produces detail sets for its own products... if you can do it better, do it and put all of them in a box with the kit... Edited December 15, 2011 by A.C.Acikgoz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) Hi Gene. But, I don't quite understand what you mean by making the nose more "tubular", or by making the curvature more "localized". Could you elaborate a little, please? I don't know if you followed this topic closely but there are some photographs that have been posted that could be clearer to you than my words. Links: - Gabor's photograph of MF and bis - about the same on makettinfo.hu - more general view of Bulgarian MF on Airliners.net to compare with an Hungarian bis from hunavia.hu Also, why make slits and then insert spacers - seems counterproductive.... No because the diameter of the front of the nose is bigger in the bis Edited December 15, 2011 by Laurent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Modelmkr Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) I do not understand why a company produces detail sets for its own products... if you can do it better, do it and put all of them in a box with the kit... Because your $60 MiG-21 will turn into a $100+ kit if they did that. Marketability states you should appeal to the broadest financial base of modelers with as low a price as you can. For the uber MiG-21 fanatics out there that want to go the extra mile, the Brassin sets fill that need. Since someone will make resin cockpits and A/B sections, why not do it yourself and grab a share of that market?... it's just good business sense. Edited December 15, 2011 by Modelmkr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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