1/48 Eduard MIG-21 MF Bis SMT

[Modelmkr]

I do not understand why a company produces detail sets for its own products... if you can do it better, do it and put all of them in a box with the kit...

Because your $60 MiG-21 will turn into a $100+ kit if they did that. Marketability states you should appeal to the broadest financial base of modelers with as low a price as you can. For the uber MiG-21 fanatics out there that want to go the extra mile, the Brassin sets fill that need.

Since someone will make resin cockpits and A/B sections, why not do it yourself and grab a share of that market?... it's just good business sense.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Modelmkr

[bungynik]

Laurent,

I ALWAYS enjoy your posts!!

But, I don't quite understand what you mean by making the nose more "tubular", or by making the curvature more "localized". Could you elaborate a little, please?

Also, why make slits and then insert spacers - seems counterproductive....

Gene K

MF nose shape is asymmetrical while bis nose is symmetrical, eg. if you follow the nose curvature from the side view, you will notice that lover side of the nose have less slanted and smaller curvature, while upper side of the nose have slanted curvature and longer ARC. When you say tube, it is the geometric shape with cross-section as a regular circle. This is what Laurent meant... bis nose cross section is regular circle with the axis of the nose, which coincides with the center of the cross section. This is not the case when we speak about MF nose shape.

So, actually, even the difference in nose diameter is not big when you compare the MF and bis, the shape of the two IS very different. When you compare the difference, by using the side view and measuring from the axis of the MF nose, you will notice that difference is bigger in upper part of the nose than in lower part of the nose, which mean that nose is not simply widened to get the bigger intake opening diameter, but it is reshaped in order that nose shock-wave cone can be more efficient on higher angles of attack, according to R25-300 increased air consumption needs.

I hope that this explanation is not written in a too complicated manner, but this is the only way to explain you this issue properly!

Edited December 15, 2011 by bungynik

[toadwbg]

Because your $60 MiG-21 will turn into a $100+ kit if they did that. Marketability states you should appeal to the broadest financial base of modelers with as low a price as you can. For the uber MiG-21 fanatics out there that want to go the extra mile, the Brassin sets fill that need.

Since someone will make resin cockpits and A/B sections, why not do it yourself and grab a share of that market?... it's just good business sense.

I second that

[Gene K]

I don't know if you followed this topic ....

Yes, I've followed this thread with a lot of interest, but didn't understand what you meant by the word "tubular". bungynik straightened that out for me (thanks bungynik).

No because the diameter of the front of the nose is bigger in the bis

OK, understand now. Have you determined how many slits you'll be making, where, and and how thick the slivers will be that you're inserting?

Thanks for the classifications.

Gene K

[Laurent]

Have you determined how many slits you'll be making, where, and and how thick the slivers will be that you're inserting?

Dunno. Two per fuselage half probably wouldn't be enough (nose cross section may look too polygonal if there aren't enough slits... but if the spacers aren't thick, it may not be visible) so I'd say four (even number because of the AoA vane blister if slits equally spaced). For the thickness of the spacers it will depend on the number of slits and where they would be placed.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Laurent

[bungynik]

Yes, I've followed this thread with a lot of interest, but didn't understand what you meant by the word "tubular". bungynik straightened that out for me (thanks bungynik).

OK, understand now. Have you determined how many slits you'll be making, where, and and how thick the slivers will be that you're inserting?

Thanks for the classifications.

Gene K

Glad that I didn't confused you even more :) I was afraid that I will do more damage than good!

Cheers!

[Otto]

Since the nose is wrong on this kit, is there any easy way to make a MF out of this SMT kit? I can get this kit dirt cheap and I am not interested in the SMT but am in a MF. I believe that I read somewhere that most of the SMT rear decks were replaced with MF decks because of CG problems. Can that be done on this kit?

Edited December 16, 2011 by Otto

[bungynik]

Since the nose is wrong on this kit, is there any easy way to make a MF out of this SMT kit? I can get this kit dirt cheap and I am not interested in the SMT but am in a MF. I believe that I read somewhere that most of the SMT rear decks were replaced with MF decks because of CG problems. Can that be done on this kit?

SMT fuel tanks were replaced with bis-like fuel tanks, not MF. So you can scratch built the MF tank or you can exchange your SMT spine, engine and cockpit, with someone who have couple of MF and want to build SMT. Basicaly the SMT is MF with large dorsal fuel tank and new engine R13F-300 comparing to R-13-300 on MFs.

[Otto]

To do a rear deck is easy, if that is all I have to do.

[Otto]

Is the canopy the same on the SMT and the MF?

[ya-gabor]

I do not understand why a company produces detail sets for its own products... if you can do it better, do it and put all of them in a box with the kit...

This is simple marketing and excellent business planning on the side of Eduard.

What do you have from an Airfix, Heller, Revell, Hasegawa . . . company. You get a kit of a subject with a handfull of marking options. This could be a good kit, medium or even excellent. In each case, for each quality you will have a market share, but only this. You will not be able to sell it to the higher (more demanding perfectionist level of model builders) or to the one below that particular level (due to price and detail level). It will be intended for one small section of the overall pie for that particular kit type. The given kit could be rereleased in a few years time with a new box and decals, but thats about all the potential it has.

What Eduard made is a very different business program:

You make the "core" or basic kit from plastic. It has the same potential as any of the above described kits. It is well designed, you can build it out of the box and be satisfied with it. But the way you sell it is a bit different, and here you can slash a much bigger part from that pie (the over all demand for the particular kit type). You can go both ways, up and down from the given kit level with a version that is accessible for the "simpler" modeller with less cash (and less demand for detail, authenticity) and all the way up to the very premium category. And all this is from a single investment in a plastic kit.

* Make a Profipack version with several decal options and some extras at an X price (take that as the base line). This will be for the medium to high category of model builders. One slice of the pie.

* At half X price you can have the Weekend edition with just one markings option, it will be acceptable for another slice of that pie, the mid to lower section of the market with less cash and simpler demand for authenticity, detail, extra parts... They just want to have the type of kit, no extras.

* You can go even lower than this with the Overtrees version at a fraction of the original X price. Here you only have the plastic kit, some photoetched items and maybe the mask. Why pay for the instruction sheet when you can find it on the net, why buy a decal sheet (with several options anyway destined for the spares box, never to be used in the next 143 years) with the kit when you will not use all of them or non at all. Find the instruction sheet on the net and buy separately any particual marking option that you want to make anyway and is not provided by the kit manufacturer. The third and fourth slice of that pie.

* And you can go even up to the premium category still with the same basic plastic kit parts, by providing photoetched and Brassin detail sets for almost every area of the kit, which will make it a really high quality excellent kit. One more section of that pie. Here the price is (say) double the X or even triple. It all depends on how "deep" you want to go into that kit.

* Then again by offering the photoetched and Brassin products there are millions of further variations on the same theme, what you can do from the same basic kit. One can buy and add them to any of the above categories to make that one particular area more detailed. It only depends on your own interest and financial status.

As for the manufacturer he can carve another slice from the pie of the aftermarket manufacturers by offering his own up-date set, be it Brassin or photoetched (after all this is how Eduard started business). Here the basic kit is good enouth on its own with the plastic parts to a certain level, but you can go furhter. The fit should be excellent since he is working from the same database as the one from which the original plastic kit was made.

If you compare this business model with the one of the "traditional" kit manufacturers then it is apparent that from the company point of view (financialy) but also for the modeling community this is much better.

Is this an answer to your question?

Best regards

Gabor

Edited December 18, 2011 by ya-gabor

[Otto]

Is the canopy the same on the SMT and the MF?

WHAT no one knows the answer to this question? That is a surprise considering the apparent expertise on this thread.

[jester292]

WHAT no one knows the answer to this question? That is a surprise considering the apparent expertise on this thread.

As for the MiG-21 canopies, Eduard provides multiple versions in each box. I'm not sure if the MF and SMT had the same canopies, but I think the one you need will be provided in the kit.

Aaron

[Otto]

The question is still the same MF and SMT, are the canopies the same?

[RAIN]

This is simple marketing and excellent business planning on the side of Eduard.

What do you have from an Airfix, Heller, Revell, Hasegawa . . . company. You get a kit of a subject with a handfull of marking options. This could be a good kit, medium or even excellent. In each case, for each quality you will have a market share, but only this. You will not be able to sell it to the higher (more demanding perfectionist level of model builders) or to the one below that particular level (due to price and detail level). It will be intended for one small section of the overall pie for that particular kit type. The given kit could be rereleased in a few years time with a new box and decals, but thats about all the potential it has.

What Eduard made is a very different business program:

You make the "core" or basic kit from plastic. It has the same potential as any of the above described kits. It is well designed, you can build it out of the box and be satisfied with it. But the way you sell it is a bit different, and here you can slash a much bigger part from that pie (the over all demand for the particular kit type). You can go both ways, up and down from the given kit level with a version that is accessible for the "simpler" modeller with less cash (and less demand for detail, authenticity) and all the way up to the very premium category. And all this is from a single investment in a plastic kit.

* Make a Profipack version with several decal options and some extras at an X price (take that as the base line). This will be for the medium to high category of model builders. One slice of the pie.

* At half X price you can have the Weekend edition with just one markings option, it will be acceptable for another slice of that pie, the mid to lower section of the market with less cash and simpler demand for authenticity, detail, extra parts... They just want to have the type of kit, no extras.

* You can go even lower than this with the Overtrees version at a fraction of the original X price. Here you only have the plastic kit, some photoetched items and maybe the mask. Why pay for the instruction sheet when you can find it on the net, why buy a decal sheet (with several options anyway destined for the spares box, never to be used in the next 143 years) with the kit when you will not use all of them or non at all. Find the instruction sheet on the net and buy separately any particual marking option that you want to make anyway and is not provided by the kit manufacturer. The third and fourth slice of that pie.

* And you can go even up to the premium category still with the same basic plastic kit parts, by providing photoetched and Brassin detail sets for almost every area of the kit, which will make it a really high quality excellent kit. One more section of that pie. Here the price is (say) double the X or even triple. It all depends on how "deep" you want to go into that kit.

* Then again by offering the photoetched and Brassin products there are millions of further variations on the same theme, what you can do from the same basic kit. One can buy and add them to any of the above categories to make that one particular area more detailed. It only depends on your own interest and financial status.

As for the manufacturer he can carve another slice from the pie of the aftermarket manufacturers by offering his own up-date set, be it Brassin or photoetched (after all this is how Eduard started business). Here the basic kit is good enouth on its own with the plastic parts to a certain level, but you can go furhter. The fit should be excellent since he is working from the same database as the one from which the original plastic kit was made.

If you compare this business model with the one of the "traditional" kit manufacturers then it is apparent that from the company point of view (financialy) but also for the modeling community this is much better.

Is this an answer to your question?

Best regards

Gabor

Agreed 100% and it's great for consumers...yes it's money, but I have yet to find a hobby that is cheap. Fishing? Nope. Cars? Nope. Home Entertainment? Nope. Drinking? Nope.

[Hoosfoos]

Hi everyone, this is an incredibly long thread, I'm wondering if anyone can give me the Cole's notes version and tell me why so many people are so unhappy with the kit and how serious are the shape problems.

[mingwin]

Hi everyone, this is an incredibly long thread, I'm wondering if anyone can give me the Cole's notes version and tell me why so many people are so unhappy with the kit and how serious are the shape problems.

here's the "Laurent's digest" of THIS thread

[A.C.Acikgoz]

This is simple marketing and excellent business planning on the side of Eduard.

......

Is this an answer to your question?

Best regards

Gabor

sure, yes.. money=best available model

but, do you really think that ins. sheets and decals costs 1/2 of the kit? if you put PE to a kit, why do you make an other one with "better" details? you can find PE sheets at eduard kits and you can buy an other one as "upgrade" but , size of the sheet is approx. same , so production cost is the same.. if so, why don't eduard put this "better" detailed PE to their own kits?

so, as you say, it is about money... eduard and others see that average age of modellers are getting older. if you are old you have more money and they are trying to milk you as much as possible... and they are building sets to correct their kits faults...

[twhite80]

I just bought a couple of MiG-21bis overtrees. For $25 you can't beat it. The instructions are online and I can figure out the decals later. I wish the overtrees were not a limited time thing.

[ya-gabor]

but, do you really think that ins. sheets and decals costs 1/2 of the kit? if you put PE to a kit, why do you make an other one with "better" details? you can find PE sheets at eduard kits and you can buy an other one as "upgrade" but , size of the sheet is approx. same , so production cost is the same.. if so, why don't eduard put this "better" detailed PE to their own kits?

Hi A.C.Acikgoz,

It's not about the cost or size of instruction leaflet or the photoetched sheet. It's about giving a choice to the modeller: you can do what ever you want at your own level of model building or on the level of your financial status. It can be a really up market kit with down to the finest details provided with Brassin and photoetch or just a simple kit (still with lots of fine details) at a fraction of the price. This is marketing, about selling a product, but I dont think more detailed analysis of this marketing strategy is within the boundaries of this forum.

Best regards

Gabor

[Brad-M]

There is an awful lot of knowledge on the Mig-21 in this thread, so I thought I'd ask this question. I am interested in a North Vietnamese Mig-21 and was wondering if one of the Eduard kits was appropriate?

TIA

Brad

[Otto]

There is an awful lot of knowledge on the Mig-21 in this thread, so I thought I'd ask this question. I am interested in a North Vietnamese Mig-21 and was wondering if one of the Eduard kits was appropriate?

TIA

Brad

I believe that during the war with the Us the NVAF had MiG-21F-13 models. I don't think that they received the PF models until the US pulled out. That variant is not of yet available but is supposed to be in the future.

[Otto]

I was wrong, they did have some PFMs PFVs, and PFLs. during the US involvement. I dont think that Eduard has a PF version as of yet.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Otto

[Laurent]

I believe that during the war with the Us the NVAF had MiG-21F-13 models. I don't think that they received the PF models until the US pulled out. That variant is not of yet available but is supposed to be in the future.

I don't know how reliable the Osprey "MiG-21 units of the Vietnam war" book is but when I look at the profiles it appears that Vietnam used F-13, PF, PFM and MF versions during the war.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Laurent

[Laurent]

I was wrong, they did have some PFMs PFVs, and PFLs. during the US involvement. I dont think that Eduard has a PF version as of yet.

I guess that the PFV is a PF which had some kind of anti-corrosion treatment but what's a PFL ? an FL (single piece canopy, wide chord fin, parabrake fairing at fin base, no blown flaps) ?