Will we ever see one?

[sv51macross]

Now, I know it's a cannon fodder VF, but in all honesty...this looks soooooo much cooler/better than the VF-25. Plus, Yamato did the VF-11 in 1/60 perfect-transform, and that was cannon fodder (for the series the VF-11 was featured in) so there must be a market for this stuff.

I just think that the 171 is much more practical from the standpoint of a space-fighter in terms of design. (also, anyone notice the Battroid 171s had to rely on melee weaponry and chest-guns; they had no gunpod!)

Just saying I think there'd be market for it. Agreement? Dissension?

VF-171 @ The New UN-Spacy

Edited October 1, 2009 by sv51macross

[Skull Leader]

I've got to stop looking in this forum. *sigh*

Now, I know it's a cannon fodder VF, but in all honesty...this looks soooooo much cooler/better than the VF-25.

says you. I think it looks like a VF-17 that got tied up with ugly rope to the ugly bumper of an ugly *** truck and drug down ugly avenue for 3 damn ugly miles. It's a VF-17 that someone beat with an ugly stick. It fell out of the california redwood of ugly trees and hit every branch on the way. It got strapped to the anvil and was beat to ugliness by the ugly hammer.

Plus, Yamato did the VF-11 in 1/60 perfect-transform, and that was cannon fodder (for the series the VF-11 was featured in) so there must be a market for this stuff.

Once again, you need to refine your logic. "suchandsuch aircraft was cannon fodder too, and they made it, ergo there must be a market for this one as well..." Ok, surely you know enough about the Macross genre to understand that there are really only two fighters in the macross universe that have not served as a "common issue aircraft" and thats the VF-19 (and it's variants), and the VF-22. *EVERY* other valkyrie design (yes, including the VF-25... a few glimpses of cannon-fodder Messiahs can be seen near the end of Frontier) has served as a "cannon fodder" aircraft. If you used that as a basis, there is a long and distinguished list of valkyries that have yet to see the light of day in a mainstream toy/model format (no, I don't count studio half-eye or B-club/Club M model kits as mainstream)

-VF-4

-VF-5

-VF-9

-VF-14

-VA-14

-VF-3000

-VF-5000

-VA-3

and thats not even including the Vindirance and/or varuta aircraft:

-Pheyos valkyrie

-Fz-109 Elgerzorene

-FBz-99 Saubergeran

-AZ-130 Panzerzorene

These are all valkyries that were mass produced (and all have finished/confirmed designs except for the VF-5, which has only been postulated... nevertheless it's mentioned in the compendium) and yet beyond some resin kit short runs, have not seen the light of day as a mainstream model or toy.

Yamato has made all of what... two or three "perfect transformation" valkyrie types in 1/60? I really hate to rain on your parade, but I know someone that has Yamato's ear, and surprise, surprise: the VF-171 is nowhere on their to-do list. Right now they're waffling between doing a VF-4 or the VF-2SS From Macross II. (these are the front-runners from a short list of potential projects... which does contain the VF-17, however... something they'd have to wrangle Bandai for a license to make). If that weren't enough to kill the idea, Bandai has a pretty strong stranglehold on the licenses for anything from Frontier... it seems more likely that THEY would produce one than Yamato.

Besides that, I think you're underestimating the following the VF-11B/C Thunderbolt has among Japanese Macross fans. Many I know rate it higher than the VF-1 on their list of favorites. It's an immensely popular valkyrie in it's own right, especially since it is viewed as the spiritual successor to the VF-1.

I just think that the 171 is much more practical from the standpoint of a space-fighter in terms of design. (also, anyone notice the Battroid 171s had to rely on melee weaponry and chest-guns; they had no gunpod!)

...and because of that, they died more often than they lived. At least, if the action scenes from the series were representative of how things usually went. Besides, (Again) if you know anything about Macross, you know that just because you didn't SEE a gunpod does not mean that one does not exist, only that it wasn't used. The VF-17 had it's own gunpod (the MC-17A 40mm gunpod) and was compatible with the howard GU-13 that the VF-19 was equipped with, as well as the Hughes/GE GV-17L gunpods the YF-21 was seen with. Since the 171 is a rebuild, it would only make sense that they can use them too.

In short? Not likely.

This is MY opinion about your fun little variable fighter:

By this point in the series, the aircraft has a taint as an "also-ran" that didn't stack up against the project supernova super-valkyries. The remaining VF-17s after a certain date went into a re-work state to try and keep them up to date when all they really seemed to do was further seal the Nightmare's fate as a deathtrap valkyrie. The VF-17 didn't perform very well at the hands of Diamond Force during Macross 7 (hence the formation of "Emerald Force" making use of the much superior VF-19F/S) and until a hotshot pilot got his hands on a 171 (Altoh, towards the end of the series), anyone who flew the airplane was flying on borrowed time. They would have been better off buying in wholesale on the VF-25 project.

I hate engaging in fanboy mode. *sigh*

Edited October 2, 2009 by Skull Leader

[Skull Leader]

Ok, just because it wouldn't bother me until I looked it up... the VF-171 *does* have it's own gunpod.

(quoted from the compendium)

ARMAMENT

-Machine guns mounted on both sides of the cockpit.

-One gun pod (with retractable fore grip). (SL's note: sounds identical to the VF-17's gunpod, which featured a retractable foregrip)

Optional Heavy Quantum beam gun pod (consisting of MDE vulcan and MDE anti-gravity particle cannon) or standard gun pod (VF-171EX).

-Micro-missile launchers in main fuselage near the wing leading root in Fighter mode.

-Underwing hard points for additional armaments and missile pods.

-Pin-point barrier system.

-Enhanced MDE-specification anti-aircraft missile pod (VF-171EX). Can be used as a shield by expanding pin-point barrier.

OPTIONAL ARMAMENT

-Super Pack Heavy-armament protector equipment available for team leaders (VF-171EX)

-MDE-specification micro-missile launchers mounted on the dorsal section in Fighter mode. (VF-171EX)

-Note: Beam gun pod and MDE-specification warheads developed by L.A.I.. Micro-missile launchers are equipped with MDE-specification warheads (VF-171EX)

The page that YOU quoted for the 171 even mentions the gunpod... although it appears that they ripped everything direct from the compendium. Nice to see plagarism is alive and well on the internets.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Skull Leader

[aurora-7]

While I've heard of no plans for a kit, there is a 1/100 details, articulated and transforming figure coming out under the name VF100s. Some 25s are already out but I think the VF-171s are due early next year.

And while I like the VF-25s better, I still think the VF-171s are pretty cool, too and also would like a 1/72 kit to go along with my two 25s.

Here's the VF-25 being offered from HLJ:

http://www.hlj.com/product/ban954818

Edited October 2, 2009 by aurora-7

[sv51macross]

Well I got pwned.

[Ranger_Chris61]

Probably, given the amount of variety in Bandai's Gundam lineup they are sure to eventualy do it.

[Skull Leader]

Probably, given the amount of variety in Bandai's Gundam lineup they are sure to eventualy do it.

I would be VERY suprised if they didn't. They were quick enough to release some of the Mac-7 valkyries (although those were pretty poor, especially if compared to Yamato's standards)

[sv51macross]

Here's what I really don't understand. With spaceplanes, aero is trivial. And has been shown, the only atmospheric fighting in Mac Frontier was mostly in battroid/gerwalk anyway. So really the only advantage the VF25 would have had would have been engines, avionics, and thrusters, all of which could have been integrated in the VF-171 to make it faster. And it could have been made stronger with uprated actuators in the joints.

And in sixty years, the UN Spacy went through how many VF designs? I get the feeling Macross is kind of like high-quality Transofrmers, it's a vehicle for action figures.

[insert Skull Leader rolling his eyes and yelling at me]

[Skull Leader]

Here's what I really don't understand. With spaceplanes, aero is trivial. And has been shown, the only atmospheric fighting in Mac Frontier was mostly in battroid/gerwalk anyway. So really the only advantage the VF25 would have had would have been engines, avionics, and thrusters, all of which could have been integrated in the VF-171 to make it faster. And it could have been made stronger with uprated actuators in the joints.

And in sixty years, the UN Spacy went through how many VF designs? I get the feeling Macross is kind of like high-quality Transofrmers, it's a vehicle for action figures.

[insert Skull Leader rolling his eyes and yelling at me]

LOL not this time. But I offer this up as an answer to that...

consider real life... If it was the world's opinion that ONE Jet (or we'll take it a step further and say TWO jets) were enough to "get the job done", the world's air forces would be a LOT more boring. As a result, indiginous cultures have developed trends over the years of what they prefer in their fighters to accomplish the missions their air force partakes in. Hence the US has come to rely on the F-16 as its primary ground-attack aircraft over the last 20 years or so while the british employ the Tornado GR.4 in the exact same role.... just for one example.

the Macross world really isn't much different in that respect. If you ever get a chance to read through the new variable fighter file on the VF-1 (you'll need a translator), you learn that the VF-1 Valkyrie was insanely mass-produced/licensed many years after space war I (they even go as far as to include bureau numbers for a few) by various different colonies. As these colonies needs changed/developed/evolved, the need for more advanced machines resulted. Different colonies might've needed different end-products, thus the variety you see. They may all be produced by one or two (or three) different companies, but the divisions that first developed them were indiginous to one colony or the other. "Colony A" probably developed the VF-14 Vampire, while "Colony B" later expressed the need for a new ground-attack Fighter and produced the modified version of the Vampire, the VA-14.

For an example: the VF-3000 Crusader II was designed as a kind of beefed up VF-1 intended to be marketed to independent national factions within the UN Spacy... those independent factions would be required to provide many of their own systems (avionics, fire control interface software, etc) for the chassis.

(the design tanked... the design suffered from some serious flaws in it's transformation actuators, as a result only one or two orders for the aircraft were placed, and those aircraft were summarily replaced.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Skull Leader

[sv51macross]

LOL not this time. But I offer this up as an answer to that...

consider real life... If it was the world's opinion that ONE Jet (or we'll take it a step further and say TWO jets) were enough to "get the job done", the world's air forces would be a LOT more boring. As a result, indiginous cultures have developed trends over the years of what they prefer in their fighters to accomplish the missions their air force partakes in. Hence the US has come to rely on the F-16 as its primary ground-attack aircraft over the last 20 years or so while the british employ the Tornado GR.4 in the exact same role.... just for one example.

the Macross world really isn't much different in that respect. If you ever get a chance to read through the new variable fighter file on the VF-1 (you'll need a translator), you learn that the VF-1 Valkyrie was insanely mass-produced/licensed many years after space war I (they even go as far as to include bureau numbers for a few) by various different colonies. As these colonies needs changed/developed/evolved, the need for more advanced machines resulted. Different colonies might've needed different end-products, thus the variety you see. They may all be produced by one or two (or three) different companies, but the divisions that first developed them were indiginous to one colony or the other. "Colony A" probably developed the VF-14 Vampire, while "Colony B" later expressed the need for a new ground-attack Fighter and produced the modified version of the Vampire, the VA-14.

For an example: the VF-3000 Crusader II was designed as a kind of beefed up VF-1 intended to be marketed to independent national factions within the UN Spacy... those independent factions would be required to provide many of their own systems (avionics, fire control interface software, etc) for the chassis.

(the design tanked... the design suffered from some serious flaws in it's transformation actuators, as a result only one or two orders for the aircraft were placed, and those aircraft were summarily replaced.

Ooooh, I really like that design! Maybe I should get a 'Gawa Vf-1 and have at it. [again, no 'thoughtful' emoticon, so rolleyes has to do]

[EDIT:] That gunpod is ridiculously huge.

You do have a point but from the way the VF-24, 25, and 27 were shown in Frontier I thought the UN Spacy headquarters on Earth or something had a few contractors come up with a basic design and then that airframe design was sent to the colonies for production by them, the colonies modding the design to suit their needs.

And I thought that the F-16 was initially to supplant the F-15, and then gradually GTOW was increased with various upgrades. And though its not as fast, the F-16 is self-escorting.

Edited October 3, 2009 by sv51macross

[Skull Leader]

Ooooh, I really like that design! :lol: Maybe I should get a 'Gawa Vf-1 and have at it. :) [again, no 'thoughtful' emoticon, so rolleyes has to do]

[EDIT:] That gunpod is ridiculously huge.

You do have a point but from the way the VF-24, 25, and 27 were shown in Frontier I thought the UN Spacy headquarters on Earth or something had a few contractors come up with a basic design and then that airframe design was sent to the colonies for production by them, the colonies modding the design to suit their needs.

LOL love it all you want, it was a failed design (although yeah, it was kinda cool looking... most of Kawamori's designs for the "Advanced Valkyrie" series that never saw the light of day were. Several of these were added into the Macross universe and were employed in the game "Macross: M3" for Sega Dreamcast)

Shinsei industries (which was born out of Stonewell-Bellcom, the company that produced the VF-1) developed the YF-24 Evolution, while L.A.I. developed the VF-25 Messiah out of that valkyrie. LAI was pitching the VF-25 to the UN Spacy as the maintstream replacement for the VF-171, while distributing several LRIP ("L.ow R.ate I.nitial P.roduction run) airframes to SMS to field-test at NUNS request before final acceptance. They weren't intended as any kind of "super" valkyrie like the Sturmvogel and Excalibur valkyries were, although they evidently performed as such. There is no VF-24, as the Evolution (at the time of the series) had not made it past prototype phase.

Despite any design similarities (on the battroid level, anyway), the VF-27 Lucifier wasn't designed by the same company or even on the same ship, rather it was produced in secret by the Macross Galaxy Variable Fighter Development Arsenal, but was also derived from the YF-24. There isn't much published information about the development of the Lucifer other than it's controlled by a BDI interface that is a direct advancement of the one used in the YF-21. Evidently the reaction times and capablities of the airframe REQUIRE cyborg control to reach its maximum potential (something most fleets would likely be hesitant to employ.... Galaxy was a corperate fleet though, and likely of lesser moral values) although a regular human could still pilot it.

So you have the YF-24 that was provided as a "proof of concept" (since nothing that has been written about it shows any mention of actual production of a combat-ready version) and two different fleets (Frontier and Galaxy) which have extrapolated their own next-generation fighters based on that prototype.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Skull Leader

[sv51macross]

LOL love it all you want, it was a failed design :) (although yeah, it was kinda cool looking... most of Kawamori's designs for the "Advanced Valkyrie" series that never saw the light of day were. Several of these were added into the Macross universe and were employed in the game "Macross: M3" for Sega Dreamcast)

Shinsei industries (which was born out of Stonewell-Bellcom, the company that produced the VF-1) developed the YF-24 Evolution, while L.A.I. developed the VF-25 Messiah out of that valkyrie. LAI was pitching the VF-25 to the UN Spacy as the maintstream replacement for the VF-171, while distributing several LRIP ("L.ow R.ate I.nitial P.roduction run) airframes to SMS to field-test at NUNS request before final acceptance. They weren't intended as any kind of "super" valkyrie like the Sturmvogel and Excalibur valkyries were, although they evidently performed as such. There is no VF-24, as the Evolution (at the time of the series) had not made it past prototype phase.

Despite any design similarities (on the battroid level, anyway), the VF-27 Lucifier wasn't designed by the same company or even on the same ship, rather it was produced in secret by the Macross Galaxy Variable Fighter Development Arsenal, but was also derived from the YF-24. There isn't much published information about the development of the Lucifer other than it's controlled by a BDI interface that is a direct advancement of the one used in the YF-21. Evidently the reaction times and capablities of the airframe REQUIRE cyborg control to reach its maximum potential (something most fleets would likely be hesitant to employ.... Galaxy was a corperate fleet though, and likely of lesser moral values) although a regular human could still pilot it.

So you have the YF-24 that was provided as a "proof of concept" (since nothing that has been written about it shows any mention of actual production of a combat-ready version) and two different fleets (Frontier and Galaxy) which have extrapolated their own next-generation fighters based on that prototype.

Do have a point. The messiah does not look very much like a hero jet (save Ozma's. Ozma's Valk is bada**!). And you must have an inside source, did not know that about Galaxy (why not mention it in the anime? Would have made a heckuvalot more sense, there were alot of plot holes. "Gaaaah, watch out for those plot holes!" -Matthew Buck )

So then Frontier was the US and Galaxy China- [ducks the rotten veggies].

[EDIT:] and the failed design thing is utter bullcrap. You're telling me that with all that overtech they can't make new joint actuators? Actually with Macross Zero, they could have swiped the Phoenix's actuators and it would have been fine. The VF-3000 would have made a lot more sense than having a brand-spankin' new VF come out every few years. But like I said, toy vehicle. Kawamori might be brilliant but he's still gay and now he's a ho. and he is. Gotta say, the VF-3000 looks kinda like a Gundam in battroid. Still freakin' cool in Fighter.

Edited October 3, 2009 by sv51macross

[Project Phoenix]

Dang it. Now you guys got my interest. But unlike "elsewhere", here I don't have to contend with overzealous Macross wannabe fanboys(read: whiners) who nitpick every single term you use when describing anything remotely related to Macross. But I'll stop my bitching here because it had nothing to do with what I'm gonna add to the thread.

Ahem.

Basically, the VF-171 was the economy version of the highly effective and proven VF-17 "Nightmare" Stealth Valkyrie. The Nightmare Plus was basically a simplified variant with no stealth systems installed and with standardized cockpit controls and armaments. In essence, the airframe proved to be so good that it was adopted as the mainstay of the Variable Fighter wings as opposed to reserving them for SpecOps or Elites such as M7's Diamond Force. Imagine a stripped down Ferrari without all the bells and whistles and you'll get my point. With that said, the Nightmare Plus is STILL a highly effective and versatile machine and it still outperforms the previous 'cannon fodders' such as the VF-11 Thunderbolt. However, the Nightmare line has been eclipsed by the more popular VF-19 "Excalibur" and the VF-22 "Sturmvogel" series of valks which were way more advanced and very expensive to be mass produced. However, keep in mind that we only saw 171s defending the Frontier fleet and also as early as 11 years ago (aka 2048) they were already in use. This may not be true for other colony fleets or even Earth.

[sv51macross]

Basically, the VF-171 was the economy version of the highly effective and proven VF-17 "Nightmare" Stealth Valkyrie. The Nightmare Plus was basically a simplified variant with no stealth systems installed and with standardized cockpit controls and armaments. In essence, the airframe proved to be so good that it was adopted as the mainstay of the Variable Fighter wings as opposed to reserving them for SpecOps or Elites such as M7's Diamond Force. Imagine a stripped down Ferrari without all the bells and whistles and you'll get my point.

So the VF-171 is the 430 Scuderia? The Scuderia's faster than the Enzo...so by that logic... :) The VF-171 is the best VF in the Macross universe!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Edited October 3, 2009 by sv51macross

[Skull Leader]

Do have a point. The messiah does not look very much like a hero jet (save Ozma's. Ozma's Valk is bada**!). And you must have an inside source, did not know that about Galaxy (why not mention it in the anime? Would have made a heckuvalot more sense, there were alot of plot holes. "Gaaaah, watch out for those plot holes!" -Matthew Buck )

There are a lot of details that get released in magazines and whatnot in japanese that never see the light of day stateside. These kinds of details pop up there.

[EDIT:] and the failed design thing is utter bullcrap. You're telling me that with all that overtech they can't make new joint actuators? Actually with Macross Zero, they could have swiped the Phoenix's actuators and it would have been fine. The VF-3000 would have made a lot more sense than having a brand-spankin' new VF come out every few years.

It still costs money. The time and effort it would've required to alleviate the actuator issue with the VF-3000 would've eaten up enough cost to render the very reason for it's existence (an easily affordable advanced valkyrie design). It was easier and cheaper to employ upgraded VF-1Xs which hosted better performance and capabilities anyway until the next generation valkyries were brought online.

But like I said, toy vehicle. Kawamori might be brilliant but he's still gay and now he's a ho. and he is.

You're wasting my oxygen. Get out.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Skull Leader

[Project Phoenix]

Do have a point. The messiah does not look very much like a hero jet (save Ozma's. Ozma's Valk is bada**!). And you must have an inside source, did not know that about Galaxy (why not mention it in the anime? Would have made a heckuvalot more sense, there were alot of plot holes. "Gaaaah, watch out for those plot holes!" -Matthew Buck )

So then Frontier was the US and Galaxy China- [ducks the rotten veggies].

What are you talking about? The Messiah do look like a hero jet. Didn't you notice the loud color scheme with its glaring white with red and black stripes? its design was supposed to invoke the image of the VF-1.

No inside source, he just read something called Macross Chronicles. :)

Frontier the US? Galaxy is China...? Where did you get that idea? It's obvious Galaxy is Communist Russia and Frontier is the Free World! :lol:

[Skull Leader]

No inside source, he just read something called Macross Chronicles. :)

Hence said-magazines I referenced in my post above :lol:

[sv51macross]

You're wasting my oxygen. Get out.

No, I'm sorry, you are. He might have come up with some of the greatest mechanical designs for anime, but there's no getting around it. Anime is full of BS themes, but someone who can construct a whole universe around young women singing wars to a stop, who can endlessly spew BS like that, that peace can be inherent in human nature is just some deluded, sap-a**, cloud-headed genetic reject. And that he kept cranking out endless emcha and had the UN Spacy changing VFs all the time, as opposed to the logical next-gen every couple/few decades and the close ties with the toymakers proves my point about him being a whore for toy royalties.

[Ranger_Chris61]

No, I'm sorry, you are. He might have come up with some of the greatest mechanical designs for anime, but there's no getting around it. Anime is full of BS themes, but someone who can construct a whole universe around young women singing wars to a stop, who can endlessly spew BS like that, that peace can be inherent in human nature is just some deluded, sap-a**, cloud-headed genetic reject. And that he kept cranking out endless emcha and had the UN Spacy changing VFs all the time, as opposed to the logical next-gen every couple/few decades and the close ties with the toymakers proves my point about him being a whore for toy royalties.

You seem to forget that during the 50s and 60s there were new designs coming out all the time.

[Skull Leader]

No, I'm sorry, you are. He might have come up with some of the greatest mechanical designs for anime, but there's no getting around it. Anime is full of BS themes, but someone who can construct a whole universe around young women singing wars to a stop, who can endlessly spew BS like that, that peace can be inherent in human nature is just some deluded, sap-a**, cloud-headed genetic reject. And that he kept cranking out endless emcha and had the UN Spacy changing VFs all the time, as opposed to the logical next-gen every couple/few decades and the close ties with the toymakers proves my point about him being a whore for toy royalties.

Well, in the end it IS just cartoon. I think you're running into the same issues with this that you seem to have with your Fast and Furious kick... you're expecting something that mirrors real life when the vast majority of us are watching this because we want something that takes us away from reality for a bit.

If he was being a whore for toy royalties, then why aren't more of his designs sitting on toy shelves?

And like Ranger said above, the 50s, 60s, and 70s saw an absolute boatload of designs come across the table... and thats not counting the ones that DIDN'T make it into production.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Skull Leader

[janman]

Don't wanna interrupt you guys or anything but this is a bloody interesting discussion!

Eventhough I have absolutely *no* idea what you're talking about. ;) Actually, I do have some knowledge since I've read most of the topics considering the subject posted lately here on the Scifi forum.

[Aigore]

Don't wanna interrupt you guys or anything but this is a bloody interesting discussion!

Eventhough I have absolutely *no* idea what you're talking about. :) Actually, I do have some knowledge since I've read most of the topics considering the subject posted lately here on the Scifi forum.

Time to see some Macross then :D Throw in some Robotech as well and you have w few hundred hours of fun to go through.

[sv51macross]

Time to see some Macross then Throw in some Robotech as well and you have w few hundred hours of fun to go through.

No not Robotech. I'm not a book-burner but Robotech is an affront and an embarrassment to the original. It's hacked, re-dubbed, and over-edited in addition to a mangled sotryline and a very, very, veeery dumbed-down dialogue for American children. It's equatable to Macross 7 in its sheer stupidity and unwatchable-ness.

No, just SDF Macross, Do You Remember Love, Macross Plus, and Macross Frontier.

[Aigore]

LOL, yeah it´s bad...but still has it´s orgin in Macross even if it´s a tad americanized

[Skull Leader]

No not Robotech. I'm not a book-burner but Robotech is an affront and an embarrassment to the original. It's hacked, re-dubbed, and over-edited in addition to a mangled sotryline and a very, very, veeery dumbed-down dialogue for American children.

For once, I agree with him. Robotech is a bloody, festering, rotting abortion of the three great series that made it up. Although to be fair, the Macross Saga got off the lightest.

It's equatable to Macross 7 in its sheer stupidity and unwatchable-ness.

*sigh* you were doing so WELL