Fuji Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6703446 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Interesting ... Do they even have Razorbacks in Poland ? Gregg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fuji Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) Interesting ...Do they even have Razorbacks in Poland ? Gregg Yes, Razorbacks are not indigenous to the Americas, they were imported. They are officially called European Wild Boar. French "Razorback" Markings http://www.nato.int/isaf/media/photo/2007/...ges/090728a.jpg http://www.airliners.net/photo/France---Ai...000D/0750647/L/ I just find it funny how many countries copy American nose and tail art Edited November 8, 2009 by Fuji Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Yes like the recent "Grim Reapers" F-2A in Japan ... I knew that Wild Boar was not indigenous to the Americas, I was just wondering about Poland ... Gregg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fuji Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 Yes like the recent "Grim Reapers" F-2A in Japan ... I knew that Wild Boar was not indigenous to the Americas, I was just wondering about Poland ... Gregg Oh I think when they called it the European Wild Boar - they pretty much meant all of it and then some!! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...a_range_map.jpg More borrowed markings http://www.cavok-aviation-photos.net/Israel/AS665_882.jpg I haven't seen the Grim Reaper F-2 - Link? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Oh I think when they called it the European Wild Boar - they pretty much meant all of it and then some!!http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...a_range_map.jpg More borrowed markings http://www.cavok-aviation-photos.net/Israel/AS665_882.jpg I haven't seen the Grim Reaper F-2 - Link? Yeah, that's pretty much ALL of Europe ... and then some ... >>> Grim Reaper F-2A <<< Gregg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
martin_sam_2000 Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 I hate to say it, but with the multitude of nose art and tail art that is out there now and has been done in the past...it is getting pretty hard to BE original. almost anything you can come up with has been used before or is a variation of what has been used before. I think the most used is the shark mouth..it works so people are going to keep using it. Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BAM'n'IVM Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) It's Poland...maybe the pilot went to college in Arkansas and has school spirit, then moved home and joined the Air Force... Edited November 8, 2009 by BAM'n'IVM Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fuji Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 >>> Grim Reaper F-2A <<< Oh that one - as far as I'm concerned they can have and keep it. Worst thing VF-101 did was change the design of the Reaper from the traditional Moe which dates back to 1941 to that piece of Shinola . I hate to say it, but with the multitude of nose art and tail art that is out there now and has been done in the past...it is getting pretty hard to BE original. almost anything you can come up with has been used before or is a variation of what has been used before. I think the most used is the shark mouth..it works so people are going to keep using it. Sean I wouldn't mind a variation and while the sharkmouth may not be original, at least they usually change it up since there are a multitude of sharmouth variations on almost every type of aircraft ever made. Funny thing is most people think the Flying Tigers were the first to use the sharkmouths on their P-40s but it was really the Brits on thier KittyHawks. An AVG pilot saw a pic of a Brit P-40 in North Africa with it and proposed the idea to Chennault who agreed. Speaking of .. another Israeli borrowing of insignia 102 Squadron flying A-4s Back to the Razorback - This is a direct copy, no change what so ever. Granted, I think it works on the Fitter, I just find it funny how its been used. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hemspilot Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Gee, like the USA has some kind of trademark over what the unit insignia may be? Had you bothered doing a search for it, you would have known the the razorback has been the insignia for the EC 3.003 since its induction in 1939. Try to grow up. :blink: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Gee, like the USA has some kind of trademark over what the unit insignia may be?Had you bothered doing a search for it, you would have known the the razorback has been the insignia for the EC 3.003 since its induction in 1939. Try to grow up. :blink: Maybe so but that artwork is from the Arkansas ANG ... Try and do a little research yourself ... Gregg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fuji Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) Actually, considering the Razorback design originated for the AR ANG, there could be some copyright issues with the Poles using it if the artist wants to make a stink over it, international copyright laws and all As for the French, there is no copyright violation or anything, I used them to illustrate the fact of a "European" Wild Boar theme. That is all. Don't tell me to grow up if you have no clue what's going my friend, you only come off as a rude wanker that jumps to conclusions. You obviously missed my last sentence This is a direct copy, no change what so ever. Granted, I think it works on the Fitter, I just find it funny how its been used. Edited November 8, 2009 by Fuji Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Skull Leader Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) for what it's worth, 8elt's jets not long ago had flaming boar's heads on many of their aircraft... which I've been begging Diego incessantly to release in his Hi-Decal line (I've got a pair of 1/48 KP Su-22s which would be perfect for them!). I have to say, it does my heart good to see the artwork from my home state used abroad... that solid black Su-22UM3 is wicked sick ^_^ Here's the old style: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Poland---Ai...c617969ad00c6e0 Edited November 8, 2009 by Skull Leader Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevan Vogler Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Does anyone not remember that exact same wild boar head on the tail of a RAAF 6 Sqn. F-111 to mark the unit's anniversary. I think that might have actually pre dated the Arkansas ANG usage of it. For images like that, I suspect very strongly it was just a matter of picking the image out of a clip art catalog. I've seen more than a few university/college spots team emblems (including that exact boar's head motif) in more than one clip art catalog. The Grim Reapers' tail art that ended up on the F-2 tail is pretty much the same matter, straight from a clip art catalog. Very hard to be original when so many are getting their pre prepared art from the same sources. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fanakit Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Yes, Razorbacks are not indigenous to the Americas, they were imported. They are officially called European Wild Boar.French "Razorback" Markings http://www.nato.int/isaf/media/photo/2007/...ges/090728a.jpg http://www.airliners.net/photo/France---Ai...000D/0750647/L/ I just find it funny how many countries copy American nose and tail art I'm not sure the french copy the american razorback tail art. The razorback was adopted by BR44 squadron in 1915 during first world war, the original art : and the actual squadron insign of Escadron 3/3 Ardennes is dated of 1977 source winkipedia I don't know the history and origin of your squadron, what about this ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tornado64 Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 they taste good !! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fuji Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 I'm not sure the french copy the american razorback tail art.The razorback was adopted by BR44 squadron in 1915 during first world war, the original art : and the actual squadron insign of Escadron 3/3 Ardennes is dated of 1977 source winkipedia I don't know the history and origin of your squadron, what about this ? They didn't and I never said they did. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trigger Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 I don't know the history and origin of your squadron, what about this ? The Razorback mascot comes from the University of Arkansas (founded in 1871, renamed in 1899. Originally known as The Cardinals, the students elected to change the mascot to the Razorback in 1910). The 188th FS was formed in 1953 and there's a lot of Razorback pride in Arkansas. So no, the French didn't borrow this from Arkansas and Arkansas didn't borrow this from the the French. Neither the RAAF, the Polish Sukhoi nor the Arkansas ANG use the same design for their boar's heads as the University of Arkansas. With regards to the French insignia, there's little reason to include the French mascot in this aside from the following... Because of limited canvas space and the need to be recognizable from at least a moderate distance, your mascot's drawing is limited to that of it's head. So what makes a boar recognizable? Ears, tusks, the fur on it's back and it's snout. Those are the elements you're going to have to render. And no self-respecting squadron will ever have a passive mascot on it's aircraft, said animal has to be charging with its eyebrows furrowed, teeth bared and hair standing up. That's why the French insignia and Aussie ones look as similar as they do. Arkansas ANG got approval for their own tail art in 1996. Even though the Razorback had been used on the squadron insignia (which featured a full boar drawing that more closely resembled the UA mascot), it had never been used as tail art. One of the pilots came up with a design as did two ad agencies ("at considerable expense"), the designs were applied to different aircraft and a vote was held (BTW, if your organization feels it has to vote on a design, you're going to fail miserably). The pilot's design was the winner (no doubt the fact that it was way cheaper (free) than the two agency's submissions helped it out). There are too many common elements between the Aussie insignia and Arkansas one to say it's just a coincidence. Polish AF borrowed from Arkansas ANG which borrowed from RAAF (or maybe the Polish AF borrowed directly from the Aussies, but given the line weight on their Boar art, I'm inclined to believe the former). And I'm going to tell ya, in this age of Google and people thinking just because they found something online it's theirs to use, we're going to see this more and more... The Grim Reapers' tail art that ended up on the F-2 tail is pretty much the same matter, straight from a clip art catalog. I'd like to see this clip art. they taste good !! Agreed. I think I'll pick up some BBQ this afternoon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Seems only fair, really. Look how many US aircraft ripped off the sharkmouth. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
richter111 Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Ipersonally prefer patriotic slogans scrawled across the fuselage... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trigger Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Seems only fair, really. Look how many US aircraft ripped off the sharkmouth. [sarcasm]Yeah, because no one else ever did that[/sarcasm] I'm not picking on Russia or any of those other Air Forces for using the shark mouth. Frankly, the shark mouth has been around so damn long, no one cares where it came from. It's become a tradition internationally, so, you can just slow your roll right there. This was about the actual artwork itself, not the use of a Boar as a mascot. Was the design of the Polish Boar's head created per government specs? Probably not. Someone saw the Arkansas ANG tail art and was inspired to redrew it with their own hand. Same thing with the Arkansas ANG; that design came from one guy who wanted to have cool tail art like Montana or California. He saw the Aussie squadron emblem and redrew it to look more like a sports mascot. What the Sukhoi art shows is that this unfortunate practice is not exclusive to any nationality. This is not to defend the guy in Arkansas nor the guy in Poland who drew those Hogs, but as I said before... Because of limited canvas space and the need to be recognizable from at least a moderate distance, your mascot's drawing is limited to that of it's head. So what makes a boar recognizable? Ears, tusks, the fur on it's back and it's snout. Those are the elements you're going to have to render. And no self-respecting squadron will ever have a passive mascot on it's aircraft, said animal has to be charging with its eyebrows furrowed, teeth bared and hair standing up. If you want to draw a Boar's head and not look like the Aussie, Arkansas or Polish versions and it still look good, you're going to have to put in some time and thought. ---Break--- This is why I don't miss RA. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Thanks Trigger ... With all three lined up like that, one can see subtle differences in each artwork ... Gregg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fuji Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 Nice one there Trigger - gotta agree, its the artwork that is the thing. No one wants to put time and effort into it, they just google it and go. As a photographer I've been th victim of it myself and seen others as well. Case in point, Revell.de recently snagged an image off of airliners.net and used it to promote their now released 1/144 F/A-18D. That was a blatant violation of copyright law. I am still wondering how to further my case against a polish company who had an artist paint a picture based on one of my images for their cardboard aircraft model. No credit no compensation :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Fuji, I don't know if you have any way to prevent artwork being made or 'inspired' from your photos ... That would be like you owing Boeing for taking a picture of their Super Hornet design ... It would be one thing if said artwork was an altered version of your photo, such as a photo manipulation though ... Gregg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fuji Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) They can use my image as inspiration, but my image can only be used for 10% of the image. Here its pretty much a direct copy with only the markings changed. It is copyright violation, especially since its for commercial use. I have talked it over with many people in the industry. The problem is they are in Poland and I am here. Eastern Europe is notorious for copyright violations. But even though Poland has signed the international copyright laws, its harder to prosecute. As for Boeing - If its anything like Northrop-Grumman, I'm allowed to sell images of aircraft as long as its less than 5,000 copies of any one image. More than that and its time to cough up some cash and obtain a license. That's for commercial uses. If its journalistic in nature, which most of my work is, I don't have to worry about a thing. Edited November 8, 2009 by Fuji Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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