Spitfire Details

[MESHER]

Can anyone explain to me what Mk's of Spitfire's used the Sutton Harness seat and what one's used the "Q" Type Harness seat? And what about the 3, 4, 5 spoke wheels?

[Jennings]

I'd say the vast majority of WWII Spits used the Sutton harness. The "Q" harness came into use very late in the war, and was used post-war.

Almost all Spits up until those produced in (probably) mid-1944 had five spoke wheels. Many Mk.Vs, VIs, VIIs, VIIIs, and IXs had the flat hub covers. The four spoke variety came into use in 1944-ish, and was used extensively up through about the end of Mk.XIV production. I believe the three spoke variety was purely a post-war thing that came along with the much heavier Mks 21-24, and was retrofitted to many remaining in service. That's a rough guide.

J

[Edgar]

The biggest cause of the "Sutton v Q" controversy is caused by Suttons, initially, having single letter designations "K" & "M," with the "K" being modified to a "QK" very, very late in the war. However, it was still a Sutton; the only difference was in the anchorage, behind the seat, to the bottom of the seat's bulkhead.

All wartime Spitfire harnesses were Sutton, and (as an extra piece of information) only the QK could be directed through the hole in the backrest, since it had a lengthy piece of cable attached to the end; this arrangement was only possible on the VII, and later, and had to have a specially strengthened seat, before it could be used (the main idea was to use it for the Seafire, due to its extra strain, from arrested landing loads, and a change to the way the seat was fitted.) Although there is a (just one) photo of this harness arrangement, it's doubtful that it was very widespread.

Post-war (1946,) the "K"/"QK" was replaced by the "QS," which was a harness with a "quick-release" box, a la parachute harness. This had just four straps (as supplied in the PCM IX kit,) doing away with the "Y" strap behind the seat's backrest.

Later still, around 1950, with the advent of the rear fuselage fuel tanks, the shoulder straps were redirected back to down behind the seat's backrest, and the designation changed to "ZB."

So far, the Tempest is the only aircraft, that I've found, that refers to a new-type of harness, which I think must be some form of the "QS"-type harness; even the Typhoon's manual shows a Sutton.

4-spoke wheels were introduced from March, 1944, and were probably first aimed at the Spitfires which were to carry bombs on their wings, since the mod states that the wheels are essential when this is intended. Plain hubs were, in fact, just covers, initially designed in 1941 as a counter to snow, and later used against dust and mud. They were easily removeable. 3-spoke wheels were introduced in August 1946, and were designed for the (heavier) 21 & 22.

Edgar

[moeggo]

What about the different style Rudders?

The aircraft that I'm personal wanting to know about is ML407 (Grace Spitfire). Its currently fitted with the pointy style Rudder. When did the pointy style come in?

Since ML407 was built and delivered early 1944, it could have the 4 Spoke wheels or the covers??... and I'm going to guess that it was fitted with the standard round profile rudder aswell?

[Edgar]

The "XII rudder" as Supermarine referred to it, was introduced as standard from February 7th., 1944; ML407 first flew in late April, so could have had the late rudder, and 4-spoke/covered wheels, but, without a photo, it's impossible to say (it means that no-one can say you've done it wrong, either, whichever you choose.)

Edgar

[Griffin]

About the Sutton harness, who knows if this is a part of the harness itself, or if it has someting to do with the chute.... ?

You can find that piece of equipment on many pictures, from Mk Vb to Mk IX, but never seen anything close to that in the seat belt aftermarket sets, so far...

[Edgar]

It's the parachute box, too wide to be the seat's harness.

Edgar

[don f]

The biggest cause of the "Sutton v Q" controversy is caused by Suttons, initially, having single letter designations "K" & "M," with the "K" being modified to a "QK" very, very late in the war. However, it was still a Sutton; the only difference was in the anchorage, behind the seat, to the bottom of the seat's bulkhead.

All wartime Spitfire harnesses were Sutton, and (as an extra piece of information) only the QK could be directed through the hole in the backrest, since it had a lengthy piece of cable attached to the end; this arrangement was only possible on the VII, and later, and had to have a specially strengthened seat, before it could be used (the main idea was to use it for the Seafire, due to its extra strain, from arrested landing loads, and a change to the way the seat was fitted.) Although there is a (just one) photo of this harness arrangement, it's doubtful that it was very widespread.

Post-war (1946,) the "K"/"QK" was replaced by the "QS," which was a harness with a "quick-release" box, a la parachute harness. This had just four straps (as supplied in the PCM IX kit,) doing away with the "Y" strap behind the seat's backrest.

Later still, around 1950, with the advent of the rear fuselage fuel tanks, the shoulder straps were redirected back to down behind the seat's backrest, and the designation changed to "ZB."

Okay Edgar, let me know if I've got this correct. The illustration below was used only for the installation of the "QK", a Sutton harness, and used only in Mk. VII and later versions.

This resin seat below, from Ultracast, represents the Sutton "QK" as the shoulder harness is made for the cable attachment illustrated above. The harness anchor point was for Spitfires prior to the Mk. VII was "behind the seat, to the bottom of the seat's bulkhead. "

This seat made by Ultracast as a"Mid-Late War "Q" Type Harness" was not used during WWII and should be used in post-WWII Spitfires.

Thanks!

Don

[Edgar]

You're close, Don; that illustration is the "K." The QK had a longer cable attachment, which could, if the seat was strong enough, go through the handhold in the backrest. Although it's difficult to see, in any of the drawings, the straps are drawn to show that they went straight up behind the seat. On the drawings of the harness in the Hurricane and Typhoon, for example, the straps have been drawn with a slight "kink," in them, to show where they go through the hole in the (metal, therefore stronger) seats.

It's possible to tell that that illustration is fairly early, since the headrest was deleted in July, 1942, and the bayonet connection (detail "A") was deleted in September, 1942. The rest of what you wrote is perfectly correct.

Edgar

Edited December 5, 2009 by Edgar