New Airbrush for christmas

[terryt]

Thanks Terry, these are exactly inputs I was looking for. Even with VL I can paint pretty consistently, but the low pressure painting and the new tip construction are exactly what I was missing.

I forgot to mention the Talon needles are made of a new alloy that is harder than the ones for the VL. You can still bend it but it is more durable than before.

[denstore]

Also Olympos...

very similar to Iwata, I've got one and works fantastic

Best airbrushes out there. I have 6 myself. Have sold most of my other airbrushes, including Iwatas and H&S, just to stock up on my Olymposes. Love them. Smooth as silk, and performs better than any other.

But, there´s one problem. The rumour is that they are about to close up the shop, since the owner, who is 80+ havn´t found a worthy successor.

[RichardL]

I found few reviews of Paasche Talon and they are all very positive. Anybody here using it and what is your experience?

I bought a Paasche Talon a couple of weeks ago, and so far I'm loving it. It's easy to use, gives a very nice, smooth, consistent spray pattern, and the adjustment knob at the end of its handle is very useful when preshading panel lines.

I tried the new Badger Patriot for a week and didn't like it as much. The Patriot was slightly easier to clean, but it didn't feel comfortable in my hand, and its trigger was a little slippery. I have been using the metal Aztek double action airbrush over 10 years, and to me, the Talon is just as easy to use and clean. I just recently retired my metal Aztek.

[MikeV]

Aztek/Iwata = Volkswagon/Cadilac

Not a good comparison because I would say a VW is far better built than a Cadillac. :)

[MikeV]

I have a Badger Patriot, I LOVE it. It does everything I need it to and more. Easy to clean and does fine lines. About to start a WWII German build so I am about to find first hand how it does painting mottled fuselages.

GOd Bless,

Ken

I agree. Buy American! I have 13 other Badger airbrushes as well. :)

Edited January 17, 2010 by MikeV

[MikeV]

Deleted.

Edited January 17, 2010 by MikeV

[MikeV]

Agree on the Hi Line. I've got both the Iwata Revolution and the HP-CH (wih MAC valve) and they are great!!

Wish I could get a Custom Micron though but waaayyy too expensive.

Rob

Rob, why would you need an overpriced Micron for modeling?

If you want to get into finer airbrushes then for what you paid for that HP-CH you could have bought two Badger Renegade Velocity's and had a finer spraying airbrush. :)

Edited January 17, 2010 by MikeV

[denstore]

Rob, why would you need an overpriced Micron for modeling?

If you want to get into finer airbrushes then for what you paid for that HP-CH you could have bought two Badger Renegade Velocity's and had a finer spraying airbrush. :)

Some of us like our overpriced Microns. I wouldn´t trade my Microns for the whole Badger line.

[MikeV]

Some of us like our overpriced Microns. I wouldn´t trade my Microns for the whole Badger line.

Hey it's your money. Might as well buy a Rolex for an everyday work watch as well.

I thought you liked your Olympos airbrushes the most? Why are you defending an Olympos copy?

Edited January 18, 2010 by MikeV

[denstore]

Hey it's your money. Might as well buy a Rolex for an everyday work watch as well. :blink:

I thought you liked your Olympos airbrushes the most? Why are you defending an Olympos copy?

I do prefere the Olymposes. But both Olympos and Iwata make the Microns. Biggest difference is that Iwata have a bit different shape of the cups, and that they carry a side feeder in the Micron line. But 90% of the parts are interchangable. The question is what you have against that people buy them, or even wish for them? As I see it, if Rob want´s a Micron, why would anyone recommend against it? Is it his money or not? Lots of people out there find them to be the best airbrushes that money can buy. Also modellers. They spray most paint, if properly thinned. And they do it with precision and consistancy, and probably atomize as good as, or better, than any other brand or model.

Either way, I normally don´t recommend an airbrush purely out of brand. The most important thing about an airbrush is how it feels in your hand, and that you find it to perform as you expect. In the $100 range there are a number of airbrushes that would fit the needs of the starter of the thread. Iwata, Olympos, Grex, H&S, Richpen, Paasche or Badger. Among others. Nobody recommended any Micron.

You are free to push for Badger if you wan´t, but why the negative comments about other brands? Do Badger need that kind of support to sell?

[MikeV]

I do prefere the Olymposes. But both Olympos and Iwata make the Microns. Biggest difference is that Iwata have a bit different shape of the cups, and that they carry a side feeder in the Micron line. But 90% of the parts are interchangable. The question is what you have against that people buy them, or even wish for them? As I see it, if Rob want´s a Micron, why would anyone recommend against it? Is it his money or not?

Yes it is his money and if he wants to buy the most overpriced, overrated airbrush made to use for modeling then so be it.

I am only trying to help the guy save his hard earned money by recommending what will do anything any modeler could ever possibly need for this hobby for far less money.

By the way Rob agreed with me if you read his post again because he said, "Wish I could get a Custom Micron though but waaayyy too expensive."

If he wants to try his hand at murals on autos and motorcycles with HOK urethanes or paint fine art like Dru Blair then I would tell him that the Micron would be worth looking into although many others for less money will also do the same thing.

Some people would recommend you buy a $400,000 Bugatti as well but it isn't going to do anything better for it's normal use than the $80,000 Porsche.

Nobody recommended any Micron.

Really? Did you read what you posted? Let me refresh your memory:

"Best airbrushes out there. I have 6 myself. Have sold most of my other airbrushes, including Iwatas and H&S, just to stock up on my Olymposes. Love them. Smooth as silk, and performs better than any other."

If that is not a recommendation I don't know what it is.

Do Badger need that kind of support to sell?

Badger sells more airbrushes annually than all other brands combined so they don't need my support.

I push what I believe in and an American made airbrush, backed by the best customer service of any airbrush company period, plus the fact that I have owned an Iwata and saw no advantage whatsoever, is why I stand in what I say.

It is the airbrush user than makes the art not the airbrush itself and recommending a $400 airbrush to someone who is not an expert airbrush user is foolish in my opinion.

I would love to see some examples of why the Micron is worth the outrageous price they charge for it? If you just like it then that is fine but if you mention it in posts here on a modeling forum as if it will somehow make people produce better work I find that disingenuous.

Edited January 19, 2010 by MikeV

[denstore]

Yes it is his money and if he wants to buy the most overpriced, overrated airbrush made to use for modeling then so be it.

I am only trying to help the guy save his hard earned money by recommending what will do anything any modeler could ever possibly need for this hobby for far less money.

By the way Rob agreed with me if you read his post again because he said, "Wish I could get a Custom Micron though but waaayyy too expensive."

If he wants to try his hand at murals on autos and motorcycles with HOK urethanes or paint fine art like Dru Blair then I would tell him that the Micron would be worth looking into although many others for less money will also do the same thing.

Some people would recommend you buy a $400,000 Bugatti as well but it isn't going to do anything better for it's normal use than the $80,000 Porsche.

But isn´t that up to each and everyone? You might think that something is expensive, that others find quite OK. At $3-400 it´s about a dollar a day, if you save for a year. Even most kids could accomplish that.

Try the same with the Porsche vs. Bugatti example.

You say that the Micron would possibly be worth it if you are into custom painting and fine arts, but not modelling? Know what? I consider modelling just as advanced, and important as both. If well performed, modelling is art, just as much as any other field. The difference is that we always have to fight against people who consider it playing with toys. And if somebody spends more than a few dollars on toys, he´s crazy, but if he spends thousands on canvas and Windsor Newton oils and brushes, he is cultivated.

And don´t get me started on what people spend on other "accepted" interests, like golf, cars, clothes or alcohole.

Really? Did you read what you posted? Let me refresh your memory:

"Best airbrushes out there. I have 6 myself. Have sold most of my other airbrushes, including Iwatas and H&S, just to stock up on my Olymposes. Love them. Smooth as silk, and performs better than any other."

If that is not a recommendation I don't know what it is. ;)

OK. So where does it say Micron in that text? Since Olympos has something like 30 airbrushes in their line, and three of them are Microns, I can´t see how that would be a recommendation for the threadstarter to buy Microns. And it was a reply to another person who did recommend Olympos. Not Microns.

Badger sells more airbrushes annually than all other brands combined so they don't need my support.

I push what I believe in and an American made airbrush, backed by the best customer service of any airbrush company period, plus the fact that I have owned an Iwata and saw no advantage whatsoever, is why I stand in what I say.

It is the airbrush user than makes the art not the airbrush itself and recommending a $400 airbrush to someone who is not an expert airbrush user is foolish in my opinion.

OK, here it comes again. I didn´t recommend any Micron to any beginner. Not in this thread, and not in the last one where we argued about this. And I´ve never done it either.

But, if somebody asks for what I believe is the best airbrush out there, I would definitly mention the Microns. And probably a few others. Maybe even the new Badger Renegades.

So, you´ve owned one Iwata airbrush, and that made you see that all their models, including the Microns would not gain you any advantages? You must be good. I had to try at least 5 Badgers before I realised that I found them to be OK airbrushes, but nothing more. I still have a 200, since I find it to be a very good single action. Point is, Badger might fit you style and expectations, but it might not fit mine. And I would never buy something purely from where it´s made. Definitly not just because it was American made. Or Swedish for that matter.

I would love to see some examples of why the Micron is worth the outrageous price they charge for it? If you just like it then that is fine but if you mention it in posts here on a modeling forum as if it will somehow make people produce better work I find that disingenuous.

As all tools, they produce as good as the user. But also, as with all tools, it´s probably better that the user sets the limit, than the tool. If I buy a Micron, I know that it will be my fault if the results will be bad, or not up to my expectations. We can talk about price over and over, but in todays society, time is usually much more valuable than anything else. If I can produce what I want with a tool, with as little hassle as possible, it might save me hours, which I can spend on other things, like more modelling. And outrageous prices? All brands has outrageous prices on their top models. Badger Sotar? Hardly anyone sells it anymore, but they sold at about $400. Paasche AB Turbo? $300. None of them as versatile as the Microns. As a collector, I will probably buy one of each someday, but they are hardly to be considered cheap or more affordable than the Microns.

We could continue this over and over, and please do reply if you want, but I don´t see us going anywhere good with this. Enough about it in this thread for me.

[little-cars]

An interesting exchange guys.

The phrase that summs this all up for me is 'fit for purpose' , what is right for one is not for someone else.

I always try and point people towards airbrushes that I know will do the job they have for it, but takeing into account their level of experience.

Some end up going for higher priced or spec airbrush, some end up doing for a trigger brush when they find out that a traditional double action is not for them.

We are all different, different things to paint , different levels of dexterity, levels of skill and incomes.

So we all suggest the products that we find work for us, which is what you would expect from modellers.

Paul

Edited January 19, 2010 by little-cars

[gotarheelz14]

If I could personally afford it, I would stock up on microns as from what I have read, they are THE BEST airbrush that there is out there. Olympos or Iwata, they are basically the same thing with very few cosmetic and mechanical differences. I would also give the MLEARN Mojo a shot as from what I have read on various airbrushing-art forums, some people really prefer these.

Its whatever you can afford. If you can purchase a Micron, why not have the best?

[MikeV]

Badger Sotar? Hardly anyone sells it anymore, but they sold at about $400.

When they first came out they were close to that price because of buyer perception.

I was with Ken at the IPMS Nationals in Phoenix in 2004 and he was selling them for $100.

Paasche AB Turbo? $300.

This is really not an airbrush and it was designed for photo retouching.

So, you´ve owned one Iwata airbrush, and that made you see that all their models, including the Microns would not gain you any advantages?

No, I know that the Micron would not give me any advantage because I know airbrushes and I know three of the most knowledgeable airbrush experts in the world in my opinion and from what I have learned from them plus my experience airbrushing T-shirts and models off and on for the last 20 years has given me insight into what works for what.

One of those experts is Dave Monnig at Coast Airbrush in Anaheim, CA. Call him and ask him his opinion of the Micron for plastic modeling. He is a huge Iwata seller and is personal friends with some of the biggest names in the airbrush world and I guarantee you he will say the Micron is a waste of money for plastic modeling.

You will say, yes that is just his opinion though, and yes it is, but I would venture that he knows more about airbrushing than anyone on these forums except for the occasion when Ken Schlotfeldt posts a quick response on here.

I stated earlier that if you want to buy an airbrush that is 4x more money than others that is your choice as it is your money, I really don't care.

What I don't like seeing is beginning and intermediate skill level airbrush users on forums being told that these are the best airbrush out there and thinking that their work will improve if they buy one which I know many will think, and that is false. I agree with you that if an airbrush works well then all of the end results are the users skill and not the airbrush, but my problem with that is that all well made airbrushes are good enough and that it is the users fault if the paint job came out great or not so good. A $400 Micron is not going to make your camo paint job on an aircraft come out any better than someone who painted it with a Badger Patriot, Omni 4000, Paasche VL or any other well made double-action airbrush.

My entire argument boils down to this...with a good airbrush in the hands of a skilled user the results speak for themselves regardless of the airbrush and that is why I do not recommend, nor do any of the experts I know, airbrushes like the Micron for this hobby and until someone can convince me that there is a real advantage to them other than a perceived advantage I will not change my opinion.

Here is a good example of what I am talking about skill verses equipment:

This was painted with an Aztek:

[MikeV]

If I could personally afford it, I would stock up on microns as from what I have read, they are THE BEST airbrush that there is out there. Olympos or Iwata, they are basically the same thing with very few cosmetic and mechanical differences. I would also give the MLEARN Mojo a shot as from what I have read on various airbrushing-art forums, some people really prefer these.

Its whatever you can afford. If you can purchase a Micron, why not have the best?

This is exactly what I was talking about in my last post. Don't let Mike Learn and the other pros who are paid by Iwata to push their products sway you.

These guys could outpaint all of us with a piece of junk Chinese made Harbor Freight airbrush.

Besides that, these men are painting murals on autos and motorcycles with paints that are far finer pigmented than our modeling paints.

[gotarheelz14]

Hey mike, have you ever tried a micron? I ask because I have and quite frankly, there is just nothing that's like it. I can appreciate what you are saying about how for most modelers, a micron is overkill. But, if you can afford it and want to spend the money, why not?

They are really sick tools and you really do get what you paid for. Other tools will do the same thing. Like you said, a junky Chinese product will do the same in a pros hand but, how many of us are pros? Would an Iwata Micron make things easier for us?

The answer to this is heck yeah it would. They are amazing tools. Nothing atomizes like them and nothing draws as thin and precise lines as them. If price is not an option I don't see why you wouldn't shell out and get a micron. Others come close but the simple fact remains:

NOTHING IS A MICRON!!!

This is all my opinion of course...

[MikeV]

Hey mike, have you ever tried a micron? I ask because I have and quite frankly, there is just nothing that's like it. I can appreciate what you are saying about how for most modelers, a micron is overkill. But, if you can afford it and want to spend the money, why not?

They are really sick tools and you really do get what you paid for. Other tools will do the same thing. Like you said, a junky Chinese product will do the same in a pros hand but, how many of us are pros? Would an Iwata Micron make things easier for us?

The answer to this is heck yeah it would. They are amazing tools. Nothing atomizes like them and nothing draws as thin and precise lines as them. If price is not an option I don't see why you wouldn't shell out and get a micron. Others come close but the simple fact remains:

NOTHING IS A MICRON!!!

This is all my opinion of course...

No I have not tried a Micron and I never will as there is no use as I already explained and even if I had the money I wouldn't spend it needlessly.

Is nothing like a Micron? I have talked to pros who have used the Micron and they said the Sotar 20/20 was a better airbrush and some said the Renegade was every bit as good at 1/4 the price of the Iwata. Personally, I think even the Sotar is overkill as far as modeling is concerned unless you are doing something with paints that can benefit from such fine art airbrushes.

I own 14 Badger airbrushes and have been airbrushing since you were in diapers so there is no need for anything else as far as I am concerned. ;)

If I can't paint models with the Patriot, Omni 4000, 100LG, Sotar, Renegade or any of the others I have then I might as well give up the hobby. Tell me, which modeling paints you can spray reliably through a Micron or Sotar with the fine needle and tip anyway? Every expert I have talked to has said that modeling paints do not reliably spray through these instruments.

By the way I am not trying to argue here for the sake of arguing I just don't understand why someone would want to spend that kind of money on an airbrush if it does not do the job any better than any other airbrush? That is why I mentioned Rolex in an earlier post. Is it a great watch? Absolutely! Does it tell time or keep time so much better than the competition that it justifies the extreme cost? No it does not. So in my opinion many people buy a Micron airbrush for the same reason that wealthy men buy a Rolex watch and that is perception and prestige. If I am wrong I apologize but that is how I see it. I know some people just have to have what is perceived as "the best" even though in actuality it is not objectively but to each his own. If I want a high end airbrush I will buy the Renegade Velocity and with the money I saved over a Micron I can buy eight 1/48 Tamiya P-47D's. :lol:

Edited January 20, 2010 by MikeV

[gotarheelz14]

Well perhaps you can stop supporting your arguments by telling us what the pros say. Or perhaps, you can point at all the other Pros who say that microns are the SH*T diggity.

The basis of your argument appears to be this; microns are not needed for modeling. You also have several other axioms to support this statement among which "personal perference" seems to be extremely relevant to your entire argument.

Yet, if we are going by personal preference, especially as objective as this matter is, how can you tell us that they are not every bit as good as we all claim them to be IF YOU HAVEN'T EVEN TRIED THEM!?!?!

:D

I'm done too. This is about as far as this dicussion will probably get.

[MikeV]

Or perhaps, you can point at all the other Pros who say that microns are the SH*T diggity.

If I could find some that are not payed by Iwata I would.

SH*T diggity? Wow! An amazing command of the English language. You kids really need to learn how to speak.

Yet, if we are going by personal preference, especially as objective as this matter is, how can you tell us that they are not every bit as good as we all claim them to be IF YOU HAVEN'T EVEN TRIED THEM!?!?!

No, the matter is subjective not objective and I know enough experts, not endorsed pros, to be very familiar with the airbrush and I stand by what I said.

Yes it is a fantastic airbrush and yes it is popular with fine artists and automotive artists but it is overkill for modeling but since you know so much in all your years of airbrushing expertise I am not going to debate with you. :P

Also, you failed to answer any of my questions in the last post so I will not waste my time discussing this either as you can't even address the subjects at hand.

Edited January 20, 2010 by MikeV