flynavy Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Im planning on building both the CO and XO birds included in Twobob's VA-22 Gecko A-7E's that took part in Operation Praying Mantis. The decal sheet mentions Mk82, 83s, cluster bombs, GBU-10s and Walleyes. Anyone know of a good loadout for these two birds? I was thinking two Mk-84 2000pd and six Mk82s (3 each on a MER) and the two drop tanks. Would that be a good loadout for this operation? please let me know Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thegoodsgt Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 I searched on the word "Mantis" and found this thread that makes reference to Walleyes, Mk 82, and AIM-9s. There are a few other threads that refer to the Praying Mantis so ye might want to take a look. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flynavy Posted December 28, 2009 Author Share Posted December 28, 2009 I searched on the word "Mantis" and found this thread that makes reference to Walleyes, Mk 82, and AIM-9s.There are a few other threads that refer to the Praying Mantis so ye might want to take a look. thanks! had a brain fart and didnt even THINK to do a search lol. ill check it out but if anyone has ideas, throw em my way Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mizar Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Just a note about their loadouts,I have set my conclusion after reading different articles here and there on the web,so for my tastes that type of loadout is fine.Gekkos were the FLIR or the Harm squad? Luigi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spejic Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Reddog said in this post that munitions were rarely mixed, and that Sidewinders would be used on any flight carrying live ammunition, and I would certainly follow his advice on the matter. I can find pictures of A-6's during this mission, but I can't find any of A-7's so it is hard to be certain what they would carry. GP bombs, like what you are thinking, would probably be safe. From what I read, Rockeyes would be a very common load because cluster munitions were the only thing they had that had a decent chance of hitting an Iranian speed boat, which was the most pressing threat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flynavy Posted December 29, 2009 Author Share Posted December 29, 2009 Ya ive been searching like mad online and only found some A-6 pics. I HAVE found a pic showing a VA-22 bird with the FLIR pod, unsure of the timeframe but i figure they wouldnt swap back and forth the missions like that. So im guessing they were a FLIR squadron. On one of the other posts i saw this loadout which i like: -2 Walleyes - 4x Mk82s (TER) - FLIR pod - Single Droptank - 2 AIM-9s Im guessing the Mk82s would be on the outter wing plyons and the walleyes in the middle plyons.... think this would be a good/accurate loadout? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flynavy Posted December 29, 2009 Author Share Posted December 29, 2009 Also i know the Gecko schemes werent used on the actual operation but anyone know what color the FLIR pods would be? would they be the standard white or were they the low-viz gray color? Same goes with the drop tanks. I take it the tanks were prob low-viz gray and they didnt get painted the camo? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reddog Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 The FLIR Pod would go on station 6 (right inboard station), that was the only station wired for the pod. A more typcial weapon for SUCCAP (Surface Unit Contact Combat Air Patrol) would be Rockeye. Since Operation Praying Mantis was primarily an snti-surface unit engagment I would load it down with either Rockeye's or GBU-12's, along with AIM-9M's, a FLIR Pod and Drop Tank on station 3. Walleye's wheren't used much against surface targets, mostly against land based ones. The only time we used Walleyes for surface targets was during a SINKEX. As for which pylon the Walleye would go on, usually we put them on 2 or 7, stations 1 and 8 where only rated for 2500 lbs and some of the Walleyes marks where pushing that weight limit. We would put an AWW-9 or 13 ERDL Pod on the opposite side of the Walleye. IIRC the FLIR Pod would be medium grey, that's what color VA-86's where, or they would the same color as rest of the squadrons planes where. And no, the sqaudron would not swap back and forth between HARM and FLIR so if you have a picture with VA-22 with a FLIR Pod then they where a FLIR squadron HTH Reddog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flynavy Posted December 29, 2009 Author Share Posted December 29, 2009 The FLIR Pod would go on station 6 (right inboard station), that was the only station wired for the pod. A more typcial weapon for SUCCAP (Surface Unit Contact Combat Air Patrol) would be Rockeye. Since Operation Praying Mantis was primarily an snti-surface unit engagment I would load it down with either Rockeye's or GBU-12's, along with AIM-9M's, a FLIR Pod and Drop Tank on station 3.Walleye's wheren't used much against surface targets, mostly against land based ones. The only time we used Walleyes for surface targets was during a SINKEX. As for which pylon the Walleye would go on, usually we put them on 2 or 7, stations 1 and 8 where only rated for 2500 lbs and some of the Walleyes marks where pushing that weight limit. We would put an AWW-9 or 13 ERDL Pod on the opposite side of the Walleye. IIRC the FLIR Pod would be medium grey, that's what color VA-86's where, or they would the same color as rest of the squadrons planes where. And no, the sqaudron would not swap back and forth between HARM and FLIR so if you have a picture with VA-22 with a FLIR Pod then they where a FLIR squadron HTH Reddog Roger that! Thanks for the info ;) Ill see if i got some Rockeyes around Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 (edited) I would load it down with either Rockeye's or GBU-12's, along with AIM-9M's, a FLIR Pod and Drop Tank on station 3.HTH Reddog This question gets asked a lot. A-6's and A-7's were the primary strikers for those ASuW engagements. For Reddog: Were A-7's buddy dropping GBU-12s for the A-6's back then? My old S-3 skipper remembers ROCKEYE all over the flight deck. I have searched high and low for A-7 loadouts for that timeframe and can't find anything. I do find mention of GBU and Harpoon use by the A-6's, but nothing for the A-7. I found this when searching..but only focuses on the A-6: http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/e4/enterprise-viiif.htm Meanwhile, the Americans decided to cease action, believing to have made their point, but the Iranians continued by sending Saam-class frigate Sahand across the Gulf to attack U.A.E. oil platforms. A pair of A-6Es from VA-95 flying surface CAP for Joseph Strauss spotted Sahand but were almost immediately attacked by the Iranians. After avoiding SAMs launched from the ship, the Intruder crews responded with two Harpoons, two WE-IIs, four AGM-123s, three Mk 82 LGBs, 18 Mk 20s and 18 Mk 83s. Joseph Strauss finished Sahand off with another Harpoon, the fires burning furiously on her decks eventually reaching her magazines and touching off explosions leading to her sinking. An Iranian speedboat flotilla of five Swedish-built Boghammers attacked Murbaric Oil Platform, an American-flagged supply ship and a Panamanian-flagged ship, but was turned back by a pair of Intruders from Enterprise, the A-6Es sinking one of the Boghammers and “damaging several others.†Late in the afternoon, two AH-1Ts from Marine Light Attack Helicopter Squadron (HMLA)-167, embarked in Trenton, were ordered toward Wainwright to identify “hostile surface contacts.†As Warrior 1-1 was being towed off the helo landing spot, preparing to secure for the evening, Warrior 1-2, Aircraft No. 34 (BuNo 161018), Captain Kenneth W. Hill, USMC, and Captain Stephen C. Leslie, USMC, responded to a call from the cruiser’s CIC to identify a contact. Closing, Warrior 1-2 suddenly reported “being locked up†and dropped from Wainwright’s radar. An immediate CSAR failed to reveal either wreckage or survivors. Hill and Leslie were both later awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for their heroism throughout the action. When the fighting erupted, Sabalan, one of the original targets, was underway, but being apparently warned by radio, came about, fleeing at high speed into Bandar Abbas, hiding by anchoring between a pair of tankers. At 1700, however, the Iranians committed their naval reserve, Sabalan clearing Bandar Abbas. As she did so, Sabalan was spotted by several A-6Es from VA-95 and fired three SAMs at the Intruders, their crews deftly avoiding the missiles. The aircrews responded by dropping a 500 lb Mk 82 LGB down the frigate’s stack, which detonated with devastating force in her engineering spaces, stopping Sabalan dead in the water. Did find this little tid bit interesting: look at the second picture down, A-6 loaded with ROEKEYE on the parent rack and what looks to be a live AIM-9L. A-7E next to the A-6 looks to have a Mk-82 or 83 on the parent rack. http://www.greenlizards.org/mypics/flight_deck.htm There is a ton of beautiful A-6 loadouts on this website if that interests anyone. Seems to be a lack of good photographs of A-7's loaded out in the Summer of '88. Anyone out there have the CVN-65 cruisebook from that deployment? Bet there is a ton of good stuff in there. You hiding some good pics on us Reddog? Cheers ATIS Edited December 29, 2009 by Collin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reddog Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Yes, the A-6's would "lase" for us and those are Mk 82's loaded on that A-7. Also, for an A-6 to have a Winder loaded there had to be something really going on, it would be like putting a nuke on a helo, you'll get the bad guy but then you just have to bend over and kiss rear good-bye. I left A-7's in late 87, when I was there our most common loaded out (besides blue death) was Mk 82's with either con fins or Mk 15's. We also did a lot of Rockeye, APAM and captive carry HARM's with a few Walleye's, Shrikes and LGB's thrown into the mix to keep us on our toes. Once a quarter we would do a MINE-EX and "other" weapons. Most of the stuff we loaded went on parent rack, only doing heavy's off of MER/TER's every blue moon. Reddog :blink: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 In Vol 10 of International Air Power Review on pg143 there is a pic of a VA-94 A-7 with a load of Mk-82s on each of the parent racks on the left side. Can't see what's on the other wing but going by the shadow, there appears to be a tank on the right i/b station. Of course the caption for the pic has numerous errors but says it was during Operation Praying Mantis. Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THX1138 Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 And what about Mavericks ? Not very common on Navy jets though. Also, during Praying Mantis the biggest threat was small fast speedboats and other surface vessels. This also posed a serious SAM thread, but would HARMs really be the way to deal with that ? By taking out a vessel with any other piece of ordnance you also take out the SAM launcher. Right ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reddog Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 And what about Mavericks ? Not very common on Navy jets though.Also, during Praying Mantis the biggest threat was small fast speedboats and other surface vessels. This also posed a serious SAM thread, but would HARMs really be the way to deal with that ? By taking out a vessel with any other piece of ordnance you also take out the SAM launcher. Right ? We never did Maverick. As far as the SAM threat from same speedboats, there isn't a threat, the boats are too small to carry SAM's except for shoulder fired type, HARM are not effective against those type. The best way to take out speedboats was with CBU's, LGB's and 20mm. Reddog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 And what about Mavericks ? Not very common on Navy jets though.Also, during Praying Mantis the biggest threat was small fast speedboats and other surface vessels. This also posed a serious SAM thread, but would HARMs really be the way to deal with that ? By taking out a vessel with any other piece of ordnance you also take out the SAM launcher. Right ? AGM-65F (IR Maverick optimized for ASuW and the Navy) didn't hit the fleet until after Praying Mantis and DSI. The Navy got on the Maverick bandwagon since the Skipper II science project had some problems. I'm sure Reddog can comment on that but all the A-6 BN's I knew from that time period said it was a 50/50 chance that a Skipper would do something wacky after it was dropped and that rocket motor pushed it toward the target. The Surface to Air SAM threat back then wasn't that great like Dog mentioned. Even in the 90's we really only concerned ourselves with the IR MANPAD threat, that's why you saw S-3's still armed with ROCKEYE and MK-82's until we pushed hard enough to get Maverick. Still looking for Praying Mantis A-7 pics. I am tempted to walk across the street to the Navy Museum (I work at the Washington Navy Yard now) and ask to dig through their files. Cheers ATIS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reddog Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 The Skipper was one of the biggest pieces of junk the Navy ever came up with, bigger then the DMLGB and LAU-138 combined. Some idiot thought it would be a great idea to take a GBU-16 and put a Shrike rocket motor on it, too bad they didn't upgrade the guidance section to operate faster due to the faster speed. The only thing you where sure to hit was the ground, everything else was iffy. Think of it this way, put a Tomcat engine on an old commodre 64 computer and that's what the AGM-123 Skipper was, one fast piece of junk. Reddog :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Couldn't sleep tonight...so went looking for A-7E pictures from the 1986-89 timeframe loaded up, gives an idea of what was being carried around the Praying Mantis timeframe: http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imageDownloa...79e79fa87d84c42 http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imageDownloa...24c238156e57d09 Off of Libya in '86 (HARM and ROCKEYE) http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imageDownloa...5aeee8f0e75e2f6 http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imageDownloa...61a8465ec41b80b Fav of mine: (1xHARM, 2xROCKEYE, 2xAIM-9, 1xDrop) [off of Libya I believe in '86] http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imageDownloa...1b0e7a3fee5b812 Cheers ATIS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THX1138 Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Is it me or do SLUF's carry asymmetrical loads (e.g. 1 drop tank on the inner wing pylon) more often then other jets ? Don't have the statistics or anything, it's just that I notice it more often. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reddog Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 A-7's carried at least one drop tank as a norm but it wasn't for aysmetrical purposes, it was for fuel. The internal fuel for an A-7E was 10.2 K, with a drop tank that gave the pilot 2K more. Reddog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrvark Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Fav of mine: (1xHARM, 2xROCKEYE, 2xAIM-9, 1xDrop) [off of Libya I believe in '86]http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imageDownloa...1b0e7a3fee5b812 Collin, Pretty sure that is a Shrike and not a HARM. Compare its relative size to other photos that clearly show HARMs and note the lack of a kink in the wing leading edge. You need to head over to the Navy History office at the Navy Yard and see what they have in the way of post cruise reports from the swuadrons involved. Might be nothing or might be a gold mine. Looking at my list of authorized Navy SLUF mixed loads, the probable configuration of photo DN-SC-87-06093.JPEG was probably: 3x Mk 82, Mk 82, AERO 1D, Mk 82, Mk 82, 3 x Mk 82 In an "inside baseball" observation, it's often been pointed out by our 'experts' how the A-7 couldn't carry a loadout unless it had been specifically approved by NAVAIR. Of the five photos you posted, only one had a loadout approved by the TACMAN. The message traffic that might have cleared these loadouts is probably lost to the ages or stuffed in a box right beside the ARC of the Covenant, or perhaps there was a bit more flexibilty with SLUF loadouts than our experts recall... Reddog, any thoughts? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Shrike.... My NFO may be failing me. My bust on that. Digging around and all this talk about interesting loads on the A-7E...how about this one: http://www.usscoralsea.net/images/dress19754.jpg Lets see: ZUNI on the bottom mount of a TER, 2 x ROCKEYE on the parent racks, a couple of empty racks then a TER with 3 x MK-20 ROCKEYE. I never saw this before. But it's cool as can be. Here are some other loadouts you can pick out from the pictures. http://www.usscoralsea.net/images/a7172bd3.jpg http://www.usscoralsea.net/images/ship%20photo0088.jpg http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/Assets/Still/1...T-87-06660.JPEG http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/...000/u130916.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A-7...etnam_1970.jpeg (Reddog, is that an old MK-117 or something else on the inboard pylon?) http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/SAC/K-108369.pdf (a lot of ROCKEYE and Zuni pods on this flight deck) Don't forget the TALD: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ADM...ched_decoys.jpg Looks like someone trapped on the wrong boat: http://www.usscoralsea.net/images/bob0817.jpg Cheers ATIS Edited December 30, 2009 by Collin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A-7...etnam_1970.jpeg[/url] (Reddog, is that an old MK-117 or something else on the inboard pylon?) Collin, It looks to be the front of an SUU-30. Regards, Murph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrvark Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Collin, It looks to be the front of an SUU-30. Regards, Murph CBU-29 (from the position of the band), can't tell if it was a SUU-30/B, A/B or C/B. Edited December 30, 2009 by mrvark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 So many loadout options... so few models in the stash. ATIS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thegoodsgt Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 So many loadout options... so few models in the stash. One can always buy more! So anyone got clear images that show how the Zuni mounts to the A-7's pylon? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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