Some Pics from Army Flight Test...

[Floyd S. Werner, Jr.]

I suspected the Cobra wasn't in operation anymore. When I talked with Warren Hall a couple years or so ago, he said it hadn't flown in a while.

The Cobra was still flying around last year. It was at Ft Eustis when I was down there taking photos for the Kiowa Warrior walk around book. I couldn't get the timing right to go out and see her at Felker but it was still flying. I don't know what she looked like then.

Floyd

[BrittMac]

Ray, that is a very different Cobra. Mix of G and Smod stuff is interesting for sure, and very buildable if someone was so inclined.

Is the interior pre-NVG? Hard to tell on my computer.

It has the Smod scoop on the sides of the cowl, but still has the screens on the inlets. No WSP kit, and faired skids. I may have to build this one just because, except for the K-blades. And the Smod wings......

Oh, and it is clean looking except for some soot on the tail. Neat post!

[rotorwash]

Ray, that is a very different Cobra. Mix of G and Smod stuff is interesting for sure, and very buildable if someone was so inclined.

Is the interior pre-NVG? Hard to tell on my computer.

It has the Smod scoop on the sides of the cowl, but still has the screens on the inlets. No WSP kit, and faired skids. I may have to build this one just because, except for the K-blades. And the Smod wings......

Oh, and it is clean looking except for some soot on the tail. Neat post!

Brandon,

The "Smod scoop" isn't even on all the S mods I have pics of. But it certainly isn't on 99.9% of G's. The cockpit is definitely Pre-NVG with all gray interior. Also, the rotorhead is gray which I bet puts this pic in the late 70's sometime. Hopefully, our resident test Guru will have the skinny on her.

Ray

[EDWMatt]

Matt,

Thanks so much for starting this thread. It's kinda like "Ask the expert" for test photos. To that end, here's a awesome set I just digitized. Yes, that is an AH-1G with TOWs and Kaman blades! It's definitely a G too as the nose mounted pitot is still in place. Furthermore, it is AH-1G 66-15335. Gold Book says it spent a whopping total of 1 month in Vietnam before returning CONUS and bouncing around the states. She went to Germany in 75 with the 334th though. Anyway, I see the test boom so what is being tested? I was wondering if the effect of the Kaman blades with the TOW racks was being tested or vice versa. Since there is no TSU, I assume they weren't firing TOWs from an AH-1G. However, you can see the yellow stripes on the bottom TOW missile so I assume it is a live missile. Now we all know what happens when you ASSUME so many things so, Matt, set me straight on this one. At any rate, this would be one cool build!

Ray

Ray, what we have here is the YAH-1R during K747 blade testing in 1977. The R is sort of a half-S (or souped up G), with the L-703 engine and uprated drivetrain, but no TOW missile capability. I suspect the TOW racks were installed to provide a representative drag configuration to compare with baseline AH-1R data. Yes, the yellow stripes normally indicate a live motor, but I can about guarantee those are empty TOW tubes installed just for an external configuration. If you look closely, you'll see aluminum "100 knot" tape over the ends of the TOW tubes and the gun openings on the turret. We almost never conducted live ordinance firing at Edwards (we went to Yuma) and the R couldn't fire TOWs anyway. Those pictures are definitely taken on our back ramp at Edwards - that's one of our old Hobart 28V GPU's with the 383 Chrysler motor. They sounded really cool!

Floyd- great to hear 736 was flying. I suspect they bring it out when they have a paying project. There's not much flight ops going on at Ames anymore (other than Google), and the test helos only tend to fly when they have a paying test project.

Edited January 26, 2010 by EDWMatt

[rotorwash]

Ray, what we have here is the YAH-1R during K747 blade testing in 1977. The R is sort of a half-S (or souped up G), with the L-703 engine and uprated drivetrain, but no TOW missile capability. I suspect the TOW racks were installed to provide a representative drag configuration to compare with baseline AH-1R data. Yes, the yellow stripes normally indicate a live motor, but I can about guarantee those are empty TOW tubes installed just for an external configuration. If you look closely, you'll see aluminum "100 knot" tape over the ends of the TOW tubes and the gun openings on the turret. We almost never conducted live ordinance firing at Edwards (we went to Yuma) and the R couldn't fire TOWs anyway. Those pictures are definitely taken on our back ramp at Edwards - that's one of our old Hobart 28V GPU's with the 383 Chrysler motor. They sounded really cool!

Floyd- great to hear 736 was flying. I suspect they bring it out when they have a paying project. There's not much flight ops going on at Ames anymore (other than Google), and the test helos only tend to fly when they have a paying test project.

Matt,

Holy cow! I have wondered what the YAH-1R looked like for a long time! Thanks so much for filling in the blanks. I saw the white and figured it was tape, but I had no idea what kind. I just saw the yellow markings on the TOW tubes and wondered what was up. Great info. Thanks again for starting this thread. I'll keep em coming if you don't mind.

Ray

[EDWMatt]

Thanks again for starting this thread. I'll keep em coming if you don't mind.

Ray

Please keep 'em coming! You have some fantastic photos of some really unusual subjects. Hopefully they will inspire some interesting modeling projects

[rotorwash]

Please keep 'em coming! You have some fantastic photos of some really unusual subjects. Hopefully they will inspire some interesting modeling projects

Matt,

You asked for it. Here's a AH-1F fitted with TOW on the right and Hellfires on the left. I'm not even gonna waste type speculating, we'll just see what you got. I am gonna go out on a limb though and say this was at Edwards as well.

Ray

Edited January 26, 2010 by rotorwash

[EDWMatt]

Matt,

You asked for it. Here's a AH-1F fitted with TOW on the right and Hellfires on the left. I'm not even gonna waste type speculating, we'll just see what you got. I am gonna go out on a limb though and say this was at Edwards as well.

Ray

Yup, that's Taxiway Delta at Edwards. I remember that test, I was there at the time. 1984 or so. That's JAH-1S(MC) 69-16423, before they made us give back the TSU and gun. We put a "trainer" fiberglass nose on it and a dummy M197 gun. That's was the configuration it was in the pic I sent you.

At one time it was intended that Army Cobras be able to launch Hellfires (using a laser-designation from ground troops), but I don't believe it was ever implemented operationally. Test here was to generate delta drag numbers for the various external stores configs for the -10. This was one of the asymmetric configs.

[g0_command0]

Great shot of NASA 750! I like the Airbus taking off from SJC in the background.

I suspected the Cobra wasn't in operation anymore. When I talked with Warren Hall a couple years or so ago, he said it hadn't flown in a while.

Last time I was at Ames (6-7 months ago) the '58 was on the ramp with the rotors turning, so I guess it flies once in a while.

It was also really interesting to see the Zeppelin flying around.

Its funny because I've seen the NASA guys fly into SJC at least on two occasion. What a short ride. Also SJC activity confuses you when you are at moffett. Youll hear rumbling, it could be a airliner going into sjc or a flight of 4 hornets breaking into the pattern!

Edited January 26, 2010 by g0_command0

[rotorwash]

Yup, that's Taxiway Delta at Edwards. I remember that test, I was there at the time. 1984 or so. That's JAH-1S(MC) 69-16423, before they made us give back the TSU and gun. We put a "trainer" fiberglass nose on it and a dummy M197 gun. That's was the configuration it was in the pic I sent you.

At one time it was intended that Army Cobras be able to launch Hellfires (using a laser-designation from ground troops), but I don't believe it was ever implemented operationally. Test here was to generate delta drag numbers for the various external stores configs for the -10. This was one of the asymmetric configs.

Matt,

Good stuff. So a JAH-1S (MC) would be the same as a JAH-1F, right? I assume MC stands for Mondernized Cobra or something like that?

Ray

[BrittMac]

Awesome tag team Ray and Matt.

Matt, what is that post that extends above the rotorhead on the Cobra. I have seen that or something similar in many test helo pics, but I didn't know exactly what it is.

Thanks,

Brandon

[EDWMatt]

Matt,

Good stuff. So a JAH-1S (MC) would be the same as a JAH-1F, right? I assume MC stands for Mondernized Cobra or something like that?

Ray

Right you are. The Army never used "Block numbers" like the Air Force and (to a lesser extent, the Navy) to denote mods to a basic type, so they had a bizarre system of unofficial prefixes and suffixes to denote mods. The (MC) in S(MC) stood, as you said, for Fully Modernized Cobra (so maybe it should have been FMC?) As you state, the S(MC) later became the AH-1F, but in 1984, it was still an S(MC)

[EDWMatt]

Awesome tag team Ray and Matt.

Matt, what is that post that extends above the rotorhead on the Cobra. I have seen that or something similar in many test helo pics, but I didn't know exactly what it is.

Thanks,

Brandon

Thanks, Brandon. I'm glad to be able to pass on this info.

The device on top of the hub is a slipring assembly. It has a series of rotating and stationary brushes (like in a generator) and is used to pass test instrumentation signals from the rotor to the stationary fuselage. Often there are strain gauges to measure rotor system loads, or instrumentation to measure blade flapping. The strain gauges appear as the colored stripes you sometimes see on test helicopter blades.

If you look at the photos of NASA 748 and 750 in the thread, you'll see very large slipring "cans", especially on 748. There were over 1000 parameters transferred from the rotor system on that project (some wirelessly), necessitating a very large slipring. Wireless telemetry has come a long way, so slipring cans are becoming rarer.

[rotorwash]

Matt,

You're batting a 1000 so far. Here's a few more for you. First pic is a very strange variation of what at least resembles a 540 rotor head. It looks to be on a UH-1D and you can see the beginning of "experimental" on the B pillar. Any idea what it was called and when it was tested? The rest of the pics are of a bird I'm calling a UH-60 Test Hawk (Yes I made that up).

Ray

[EDWMatt]

Matt,

You're batting a 1000 so far. Here's a few more for you. First pic is a very strange variation of what at least resembles a 540 rotor head. It looks to be on a UH-1D and you can see the beginning of "experimental" on the B pillar. Any idea what it was called and when it was tested? The rest of the pics are of a bird I'm calling a UH-60 Test Hawk (Yes I made that up).

Ray

Okay, my batting average in going down, as you've stumped me on the Huey rotor head. I want to say it's a Bell test, but the "Experimental" throws me off, as they usually did their Huey testing on bailed military airframes. The VHF "stick" antenna and lack of wipers is interesting, as are the "Chinese weights" projecting from the top of the head. I've never seen a 540 head on a 205, but its hard to tell from the pic, it might be a 204.

The Blackhawk is easier. It's an Edwards test bird and and that's our old hangar. It doesn't have HIRSS installed, so it's probably 77-22716, the third production Blackhawk. The first pic shows a Loral low airspeed sensor installed in addition to the test boom. It's the same low airspeed system as on a Cobra (or a 64D, for that matter). The second pic is the flight test instrumentation package (all the orange stuff). It also shows the ballast box on the floor. That box was movable in flight to change the CG, using a jackscrew assembly. The next shot shows the rotor flapping instrumentation installed on two blades, along with the slipring "can". The last shot is in flight near Harpers Dry Lake, which is out by Ft. Irwin, east of Edwards. That might even be during the Pitch Bias Actuator failure testing, in which case, I'm probably in the flight test engineers station!

[thatguy96]

The Army never used "Block numbers" like the Air Force and (to a lesser extent, the Navy) to denote mods to a basic type, so they had a bizarre system of unofficial prefixes and suffixes to denote mods.

From what I can see this hasn't changed much. Using a different common name to denote mods to basic aircraft types is another method the Army uses. I want to say the Army's nomenclature habits are the most obnoxious, but I don't think that's true hehe. They're tied with the USMC's mixing and matching of other nomenclature and commercial terminology.

[rotorwash]

Okay, my batting average in going down, as you've stumped me on the Huey rotor head. I want to say it's a Bell test, but the "Experimental" throws me off, as they usually did their Huey testing on bailed military airframes. The VHF "stick" antenna and lack of wipers is interesting, as are the "Chinese weights" projecting from the top of the head. I've never seen a 540 head on a 205, but its hard to tell from the pic, it might be a 204.

The Blackhawk is easier. It's an Edwards test bird and and that's our old hangar. It doesn't have HIRSS installed, so it's probably 77-22716, the third production Blackhawk. The first pic shows a Loral low airspeed sensor installed in addition to the test boom. It's the same low airspeed system as on a Cobra (or a 64D, for that matter). The second pic is the flight test instrumentation package (all the orange stuff). It also shows the ballast box on the floor. That box was movable in flight to change the CG, using a jackscrew assembly. The next shot shows the rotor flapping instrumentation installed on two blades, along with the slipring "can". The last shot is in flight near Harpers Dry Lake, which is out by Ft. Irwin, east of Edwards. That might even be during the Pitch Bias Actuator failure testing, in which case, I'm probably in the flight test engineers station!

Matt,

I'd say you're doing pretty darn good! As for the Huey, you are right it is a 204, a UH-1B, in fact. If you looks at the top of the door, you can see it isn't the small "jump door" of a 205 but the front of a 204 door. Good eyes as usual. I would really like to know more about that rotorhead though. I think that test might predate the 540 and be an early version of it. No way to be sure from what I have, which is just that photo. OK, I better let you post a few pics before I completely saturate your thread with my photos! Thanks again, it means a lot to get info firsthand from someone who was there.

Ray

[rotorwash]

Matt,

I'm still waiting for you to post some more of your photos, but I just scanned this one and I figured you may know these guys. Heck, one of em could be you for all I know! We got to keep this thread alive. I have hundreds maybe thousands of slides I need the skinny on and you are the most qualified guy I know to tell me about em.

Ray

Edited January 29, 2010 by rotorwash

[EDWMatt]

Matt,

I'm still waiting for you to post some more of your photos, but I just scanned this one and I figured you may know these guys. Heck, one of em could be you for all I know! We got to keep this thread alive. I have hundreds maybe thousands of slides I need the skinny on and you are the most qualified guy I know to tell me about em.

Ray

I've been kind of remiss lately, haven't I? Really need to upload more stuff to my Photobucket account so I can post.

Sure, I know those guys. The airframe is 82-23748, which is now NASA 748. Left to right are Quinn Crowell, flight test engineer. He later married an RC-12 PIC (she later went to RC-7's), next is CW4 Joe Lyle, project test pilot. Joe also flew the SA365N that I posted earlier. Joe is now retired and is a weapons test engineer at NAWC China Lake. I still see him on a semi-regular basis. The next two guys are quality assurance inspectors. Steve Sykes, who started as a crew chief and is now an inspection chief with the FAA, and Bobby Kirkbride. Bobby also started as a crew chief (he was the chief on one of my OH-58) projects. Bobby passed away from cancer just last year. Last is Dennis Huckabee, the test instrumentation tech. The less said about Mr. Huckabee, the better. I'd put the date of that picture somewhere about 1988.

Since we seem to be on Blackhawks, here's one pic to maybe inspire the Blackhawk modelers:

77-22716 again, at Duluth, MN for icing qualification of the ESSS. Although 716 was built without fixed provisions, it had them retrofitted to allow ESSS testing. Note the 450 gallon inboard fuel tanks. I have not seen 450s on a Blackhawk very often, although they were an approved store. The tanks were surplus F-105 tanks, which explains the the paint scheme. I once built this configuration in 1/72 with a Fujimi Blackhawk.

[EDWMatt]

To continue on the riff...

716 in the 4-tank config performing artificial icing testing behind the original JC-47C HISS. Icing testing is first done in the controlled environment behind the tanker, then, if no problems are noted, natural icing testing is performed in actual icing conditions. Green sea dye is added to the water in the tanker to make the ice buildup on the test aircraft more visible (it makes the ice appear yellow on the test aircraft). We put some of the sea dye into the hotel swimming pool for our St. Patrick's day party...

JCH-47D 84-24159 Helicopter Icing Spray System (HISS). This is the second HISS, which replaced 814 when it went to Boeing to be converted to a D.

This shows the spray boom in the retracted position and the intake and exhaust for the cabin-mounted APU.

There was a plan to build a "Super HISS" (or "Son of HISS") with a 2500 gallon water capacity, a triple-deck spray boom and an APU from a 747-400 (which was more powerful than one of the Chinook's T55's) to pump and atomize the water, but the design contractor exhausted all the funds before the design was completed.

[Albert Moore]

That Chinook would make for an interesting conversion as well as model contest entry. Don't think there would be many like it on the table.

Cheers,

Alby

[Longbow Mech]

Matt I see that the Helo's used at Edwards had the same big white numbers on the sides of the aircraft. As you know the ATTC here at Rucker call those Bear Cat Numbers. Was this the same with Edwards Helo's?

Brock

[rotorwash]

Matt,

I'll see your HISS pic and raise you a sprayee's eye view of the system. Sorry for the poor quality, but the neg was scratched pretty bad.

I assume this 212 is being iced and that is what the yellow stuff is. I guess that would make this a HISS eye view of it's target.

Finally, I thought this one might bring back some memories.

Ray

Edited February 2, 2010 by rotorwash

[salvador001]

Hey, what helo is in the fourth photo that ray post in his last post? it looks like a 412 but very strange..

Rod.

[rotorwash]

Hey, what helo is in the fourth photo that ray post in his last post? it looks like a 412 but very strange..

Rod.

Rod,

I think you are right. It probably is a 412. Those blades are so close to the camera that they look really big, but here's another 412 and you can see she was sprayed as well with the green sea dyed ice as well.

Ray