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Some Pics from Army Flight Test...


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6 hours ago, Loach Driver said:

 Thanks for the colour tips. I messed around with the pic for a minute and came up with this version of it. Not fully correct but a bit closer to the real colour of the helicopter than the first version of this pic. 

 

275659737_7756223657736292_8925621891328758800_n c

 

LD.

 

Yeah, that looks pretty close, LD. Would make a cool model.

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It sure would. I need to pull out my 1/72 Italeri kit and see how difficult that engine cowling modification might be. Nice paint scheme and the air data boom adds further interest to the model.

 

The Stinger missile system was a feature of much of the early OH-58D artwork and early airbrushed photos. Hughes also fitted a Stinger pod to their OH-6D AHIP entry. I'm not sure if any of the early OH-58D prototypes actually flew with a Stinger pod fitted. I think the Stinger came later with the armed OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. As a kid, I was always fascinated by these images of the Kiowa with the missile pod!

 

16865014_1649710265334215_1944174112674355597_n

 

125072536_418280492881053_9197200811741740865_o

 

LD.

 

Edited by Loach Driver
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2 hours ago, Loach Driver said:

It sure would. I need to pull out my 1/72 Italeri kit and see how difficult that engine cowling modification might be. Nice paint scheme and the air data boom adds further interest to the model.

 

The Stinger missile system was a feature of much of the early OH-58D artwork and early airbrushed photos. Hughes also fitted a Stinger pod to their OH-6D AHIP entry. I'm not sure if any of the early OH-58D prototypes actually flew with a Stinger pod fitted. I think the Stinger came later with the armed OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. As a kid, I was always fascinated by these images of the Kiowa with the missile pod!

 

16865014_1649710265334215_1944174112674355597_n

 

125072536_418280492881053_9197200811741740865_o

 

LD.

 

The engine cowl is essentially that of a 206L, similar to the 206L-4

 

This should give you the images you need to do it, along with a 3 view plan.  The rub comes in duplicating the "overhand".   I've been debating doing it in 1/35 using one of the kits MRC gave me when I helped with the OH-58D KW kit.  I don't think any of the AHIP birds were fitted with ATAS sets, that was wishful PR  marketing on BH's part.

 

https://ravenaircraftsales.com/aircraft/bell-206l4/

 

The drawing is right out of BH marketing on the 206L-4.  The only variance between the AHIP prototypes and the 206L, in engine cowl outline, is the exhaust stack.  the bird is set up for sling work, the bubble window on the pilots side allows the pilot to hang his head out to see the load for pickup and drop off.

206L-4_Plans.jpg

Edited by BWDenver
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The previous drawing, I uploaded turned out to be a bit off.  This drawing is based on a scan of the MRC parts listing.  

 

I've modified the contour of the upper cowling as a best guess based on the limited photos I have of the initial prototypes.  Bell flew Ship 2 with two different exhaust stacks.  One went up at an angle, as depicted in the shot posted of Ship 2.  The other was a 5-segment stack that redirected the exhaust back at around 45 degrees.

 

Ship 3&4 had an early exhaust stack that was comprised of 4 segments and directed the exhaust back at 90 degrees, as seen in the scrap view below.

 

The slight lip around the top of the MRC fuselage parts should be removed, and the vertical sections curved to the top.  The angle on the rise at the front of the cowl looks close to the kit contour.  The kit parts can be utilized to determine where the stack comes out of the engine cowl.

 

The attached uploaded was 1/35, however when its selected on a computer, it may not be depicted in 1/35.  To get the right scale for the MRC kit, the tail boom needs to be 120mm from the tail boom joint to the tip of the tail boom.

OH-58D_AHIP_Proto_Early_Part_2_Sm.jpg

OH-58D_69-16139_Ship-3-AHIP OH-58D005-TB-_VIA-RW_Cowl_Scrap_View.jpg

Edited by BWDenver
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On 3/3/2023 at 3:15 AM, Loach Driver said:

It sure would. I need to pull out my 1/72 Italeri kit and see how difficult that engine cowling modification might be. Nice paint scheme and the air data boom adds further interest to the model.

 

The Stinger missile system was a feature of much of the early OH-58D artwork and early airbrushed photos. Hughes also fitted a Stinger pod to their OH-6D AHIP entry. I'm not sure if any of the early OH-58D prototypes actually flew with a Stinger pod fitted. I think the Stinger came later with the armed OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. As a kid, I was always fascinated by these images of the Kiowa with the missile pod!

 

16865014_1649710265334215_1944174112674355597_n

 

125072536_418280492881053_9197200811741740865_o

 

LD.

 

I don't remember any external stores on the early aircraft.  The first Stinger installation I'm aware of was on the OH-58D(I).  They weren't podded, but had a specialized mount (don't know the weapons system number off the top of my head).  I don't think the Prime Chance aircraft had them.  The Stinger installation is included in the "Thugs" version of the MRC kit, but not the "Black Death" boxing.

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5 hours ago, BWDenver said:

The previous drawing, I uploaded turned out to be a bit off.  This drawing is based on a scan of the MRC parts listing.  

 

I've modified the contour of the upper cowling as a best guess based on the limited photos I have of the initial prototypes.  Bell flew Ship 2 with two different exhaust stacks.  One went up at an angle, as depicted in the shot posted of Ship 2.  The other was a 5-segment stack that redirected the exhaust back at around 45 degrees.

 

Ship 3&4 had an early exhaust stack that was comprised of 4 segments and directed the exhaust back at 90 degrees, as seen in the scrap view below.

 

The slight lip around the top of the MRC fuselage parts should be removed, and the vertical sections curved to the top.  The angle on the rise at the front of the cowl looks close to the kit contour.  The kit parts can be utilized to determine where the stack comes out of the engine cowl.

 

The attached file should be around 1/35

OH-58D_AHIP_Proto_Early_Part_2_Sm.jpg

OH-58D_69-16139_Ship-3-AHIP OH-58D005-TB-_VIA-RW_Cowl_Scrap_View.jpg

 

Wow, excellent info!  Thanks for this, BW

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On 3/3/2023 at 10:08 AM, X-Plane Fan said:

EDWMatt, Great to see you back here. We've missed looking at all the great photos you have to share.

 

Stay tuned. Got some cool stuff coming.  My friend came across some really cool old Army Edwards stuff at a garage sale.  I'm in the process of scanning it.  LOH, early Cobras, short-body Huey's, ACH-47A, CH-46C and more!

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17 hours ago, EDWMatt said:

I don't remember any external stores on the early aircraft.  The first Stinger installation I'm aware of was on the OH-58D(I).  They weren't podded, but had a specialized mount (don't know the weapons system number off the top of my head).  I don't think the Prime Chance aircraft had them.  The Stinger installation is included in the "Thugs" version of the MRC kit, but not the "Black Death" boxing.

There is a "family photo" of the early OH-58D AHIP prototypes, Ship 2 had an ATAS mount similar to the promo picture Loach Driver posted.  The AHIP birds were unarmed. 

 

The first instance of an ATAS on the OH-58 was the Prime Chance AH-58D's deployed in the gulf, and yes all the paperwork on them listed them as AH-58D's.  "Big Army later had a fit on that designation and reverted to OH-58D(I) and later with upgrades the OH-58D(R).  Same hardware depicted in the MRC kit on the OH-58D(I).

 

The Army did test an ATAS dual stack launcher in Oct of 81, as depicted in the advertising shot, but nothing came out of it.  The launcher that was finally installed on the JOH-58C LCH, AH-58D, OH-58D(I) and the OH-58CS is the unit included in the MRC kit.

 

The shot depicted of the OH-58D AHIP with the ATAS launchers was likely derived from the mockup Bell did.  I don't think the aircraft actually flew in that configuration.  Photos of the bird "flying" appear to be heavily retouched photos.

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On 3/8/2023 at 8:01 PM, BWDenver said:

The previous drawing, I uploaded turned out to be a bit off.  This drawing is based on a scan of the MRC parts listing.  

 

I've modified the contour of the upper cowling as a best guess based on the limited photos I have of the initial prototypes.  Bell flew Ship 2 with two different exhaust stacks.  One went up at an angle, as depicted in the shot posted of Ship 2.  The other was a 5-segment stack that redirected the exhaust back at around 45 degrees.

 

Ship 3&4 had an early exhaust stack that was comprised of 4 segments and directed the exhaust back at 90 degrees, as seen in the scrap view below.

 

The slight lip around the top of the MRC fuselage parts should be removed, and the vertical sections curved to the top.  The angle on the rise at the front of the cowl looks close to the kit contour.  The kit parts can be utilized to determine where the stack comes out of the engine cowl.

 

The attached uploaded was 1/35, however when its selected on a computer, it may not be depicted in 1/35.  To get the right scale for the MRC kit, the tail boom needs to be 120mm from the tail boom joint to the tip of the tail boom.

OH-58D_AHIP_Proto_Early_Part_2_Sm.jpg

OH-58D_69-16139_Ship-3-AHIP OH-58D005-TB-_VIA-RW_Cowl_Scrap_View.jpg

 

Thanks for doing up this drawing. It might be useful in the future for a conversion of one of the existing AHIP kits.

 

Any photos of OH-58As or AHIP prototypes fitted with ATAS would be welcome. I think the first ATAS launches from a Kiowa were from an OH-58A in the mid-eighties. I don't know the identity of that particular airframe though.

 

LD. 

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On 3/13/2023 at 9:08 AM, Loach Driver said:

 

Thanks for doing up this drawing. It might be useful in the future for a conversion of one of the existing AHIP kits.

 

Any photos of OH-58As or AHIP prototypes fitted with ATAS would be welcome. I think the first ATAS launches from a Kiowa were from an OH-58A in the mid-eighties. I don't know the identity of that particular airframe though.

 

LD. 

OH-58D Ship 2, 68-16354 was photographed with an ATAS dual stack on the RH side - at least once.

 

This is the same ATAS "launcher" that has been depicted in the AHIP PR shot from BH.  Interestingly enough the PR shot is a retouch job from a mockup of the AHIP that showed up at a Quad A convention.  I can't find any evidence it ever flew in that configuration.   I could be wrong but in all the 18,798 some odd shots of OH-58/206/406/407's I've accumulated from multiple sources I have yet to see that configuration (specific hardware) in anything other than a mockup or PR shot.

 

Most likely the dual stack launcher is simply a mockup to "represent" an ATAS system.

 

The Test Board did a Cobra OH-58 test with an ATAS test install, and even one that hung below the 58 like the MiniTat. But they were only used in tests.  The Canadians use the MiniTat and so do the Iranians on at least one 206.

 

Presently I'm going through my shots to determine what is and is not going to be included in the research project...

 

Still a couple of airframes to account for, but presently I'm up to around 88 separate or sub models of OH-58/206 lineage aircraft.  For example, the OH-58A has two additional sub models, the 58A+ and 58A+ RAID.  

 

Real head ache...

 

Bryan

 

 

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On 3/13/2023 at 9:08 AM, Loach Driver said:

 

Thanks for doing up this drawing. It might be useful in the future for a conversion of one of the existing AHIP kits.

 

Any photos of OH-58As or AHIP prototypes fitted with ATAS would be welcome. I think the first ATAS launches from a Kiowa were from an OH-58A in the mid-eighties. I don't know the identity of that particular airframe though.

 

LD. 

The AHIP birds didn't fly (to my knowledge) with ATAS systems.  

 

The OH-58A's had ATAS units tested, but it never got out of the testing stage.  The first dedicated ATAS systems installed on OH-58's was the OH-58CS (S for Stinger) and the AH-58D Prime Chance birds.  The AH was later dropped as "Big Army" did NOT want the bird referred to as an Attack platform, and it was more politically palitable to refer to it as a "OH" bird.  Those launchers are represented in the MRC kit.  So your only options are to get the MRC 1/35 kit.  Or the OH-58A and convert it to an HO-58CS RG (Round Glass).  You would have to scratch the instrument panel, engine cowls, IR exhaust stacks, and oh by the way, the ATAS launcher...

 

A word on the somewhat available 1/48 kits, at a cost, none are completely correct.  All the 1/48 OH-58A kits have the Bell 206 rotor system.  They lack the swept tip caps.  You can get out the sand [paper and turn a 206A rotor blade into a 206A-1 rotor blade with a little bit of work.  The OH-58A was certified by the FAA as the 206A-1.

 

If you do an OH-58A and build an accurate OH-58A rotor blade (add about 4" to the blade and Scarfe it) , you will also have to add a few inched to the tail boom, as the OH-589A tail boom is slightly longer than the 206A/B tail boom.

 

The attached shot is the only ATAS launcher I can find (in the files Ray Wilhite has provided), with an ATAS launcher, admittedly a kludged together unit... 

 

The shot of the AHIP is really a retouched shot of a mockup.  I can't find any evidence this aircraft in this configuration actually flew...  Again one of the shots Ray provided.

 

Another interesting image would be an OH-58A with 2.75" rockets.  The 6th ACCB tested the bird at Ft Irwin.  Unfortunately, I didn't have my camera with me when it showed up at "Bike" Lake.

 

Bryan

 

 

OH-58C and AH-1G with stingers CEP 052 1981 -0003_Sm.jpg

AHIP_OH-580005.jpg

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Thanks for all that info and the interesting photos. I had a dig through my OH-58A photos saved from the web and found this image of an OH-58A with a Stinger Pod fitted. The cameras fitted on top of it (as well as all the equipment in the rear compartment) indicate that it might actually have been a "live" pod and was used in testing the firing of the Stinger missile from the OH-58A. I reckon it is a second photo of the same OH-58A from your post above. It would be interesting to know the Army serial number for this Kiowa. It would make a nice and interesting little model.

 

(I'm not sure where I found this photo but it is possibly one of Ray's scans from the US Army Aviation Museum.👍)

 

AH-1G and OH-58 Oct 7 1981 CEP 52 AC 972 and 096 Stinger Project005

 

 

LD.

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On 3/8/2023 at 8:26 PM, EDWMatt said:

Stay tuned. Got some cool stuff coming.  My friend came across some really cool old Army Edwards stuff at a garage sale.  I'm in the process of scanning it.  LOH, early Cobras, short-body Huey's, ACH-47A, CH-46C and more!

 

 

@EDWMatt,

I am really interested to see the CH-46C photos.  I am attempting to build one of the YHC-1A prototypes (before redesignation to CH-46C).  I only have a couple of small photos that get blurry when I zoom.  I even spent time with a couple of retired Boeing/Vertol engineers who worked on the BV-107 program who provided me with some neat history.  I created the c/n registry for the YHC-1A at the helis.com/database as well as for the entire V-107 lineage

Kind regards,

Dutch

 

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1 hour ago, Dutch said:

I am really interested to see the CH-46C photos.  I am attempting to build one of the YHC-1A prototypes (before redesignation to CH-46C).  I only have a couple of small photos that get blurry when I zoom.  I even spent time with a couple of retired Boeing/Vertol engineers who worked on the BV-107 program who provided me with some neat history.  I created the c/n registry for the YHC-1A at the helis.com/database as well as for the entire V-107 lineage

Kind regards,

Dutch

These hi-res ones any help, Dutch?

1964-L-02891.jpg

1968-L-09362.jpg

There's a one-minute video on the YHC-1A on Twitter (just click the 'play' button to view it on here):

 

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Andy, Thank you, I do have those NASA shots.  The only Army shots I have are the ones posted on helis.com/database YHC-1A link.  Don't have twitter, FB, or any other social media.  ARC & SCM are the extent of my online social life, so I thank you for the video link.  K/r, Dutch

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1 hour ago, Dutch said:

Andy, Thank you, I do have those NASA shots.  The only Army shots I have are the ones posted on helis.com/database YHC-1A link.  Don't have twitter, FB, or any other social media.  ARC & SCM are the extent of my online social life, so I thank you for the video link.  K/r, Dutch

I take it you haven't seen this page - has a dozen shots, including one with an unusual (to say the least!) fuselage marking!

https://sobchak.wordpress.com/2011/11/29/pix-yhc-1a-il-precursore-del-ch-46-sea-knight/

A few of the pics are larger than displayed (right-click and save or open in new tab/window to see their full-size versions)

Further links on the same site to promotional material:

https://sobchak.wordpress.com/2014/09/04/ad-vertol-107yhc-1-1958/

https://sobchak.wordpress.com/2014/07/29/ad-general-electric-t58-vertol-yhc-1-1959/

And:

chinophrog.jpg

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Andy, thanks for those links as well.  It has been about ten years since I last looked.  My Airfix BV-107 kit has been languishing that long!  I may pull it out of mothballs and see where I stand.  Thank you.  Dutch  

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9 minutes ago, andyf117 said:

I take it you haven't seen this page - has a dozen shots, including one with an unusual (to say the least!) fuselage marking!

https://sobchak.wordpress.com/2011/11/29/pix-yhc-1a-il-precursore-del-ch-46-sea-knight/

A few of the pics are larger than displayed (right-click and save or open in new tab/window to see their full-size versions)

Unfortunately none of those are of "stelar quality".

 

One of the birds ended it's days at Langley,

 

The origins of the 107 actually reach back to the French Algerian war.  Boeing sent a team of engineers to France to talk about what was needed and the French experience.  the goal was to develop a turbine powered transport that could carry a "Reenforced Rifle Squad".

 

Somewhere I have the notes from an interview I did at Boeing in Philly.  I was goign to do an "In Action" for Squadron on teh 46, but they basically decided that the CH-47 was similar to the 46, so why bother...

 

At this point i have around 1300 images and docs on the 46/107.  A significant number of my own taken at New River, and on a flight to the gun ranges for Cherry Point.

 

If you look closely you can see one of the .50 cases dropping into the collector.  The gunner instructor is standing behind the shooter.  They were nice enough to let be blow through a box of .50 Cal.  I was serving in a CH-47D unit out of Ft Meade at the time as a Reservist so getting on the bird was easier than a pure civilian.  Although I was there in the capacity as a "Journalist".  some of the shots from the trip on a tanker hop got published in World Airpower Journal.

 

The interior probably didn't change that much.  The Marines flew their birds without the sound proofing, the Army 47D's flew with it.

 

Bryan

 

 

CH-46E_15xxxx_HMM-261_GunEx_2_NewRiver_BryanWilburn_Sm.jpg

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5 hours ago, Loach Driver said:

Thanks for all that info and the interesting photos. I had a dig through my OH-58A photos saved from the web and found this image of an OH-58A with a Stinger Pod fitted. The cameras fitted on top of it (as well as all the equipment in the rear compartment) indicate that it might actually have been a "live" pod and was used in testing the firing of the Stinger missile from the OH-58A. I reckon it is a second photo of the same OH-58A from your post above. It would be interesting to know the Army serial number for this Kiowa. It would make a nice and interesting little model.

 

(I'm not sure where I found this photo but it is possibly one of Ray's scans from the US Army Aviation Museum.👍)

 

AH-1G and OH-58 Oct 7 1981 CEP 52 AC 972 and 096 Stinger Project005

 

 

LD.

I may have the Ser No of the ship.  I'll check this afternoon when I get back from Denver.

Bryan

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16 minutes ago, Dutch said:

Andy, thanks for those links as well.  It has been about ten years since I last looked.  My Airfix BV-107 kit has been languishing that long!  I may pull it out of mothballs and see where I stand.  Thnak you.  Dutch  

If you're really up for some pain and suffering in 1/72....

XSM area on a 46E.  the State Dept also flew a couple of bailed 46's from (I think) the USN.  Columbia also flew some in the Sand Box for support.

46E_Sm.jpg

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11 hours ago, Loach Driver said:

Thanks for all that info and the interesting photos. I had a dig through my OH-58A photos saved from the web and found this image of an OH-58A with a Stinger Pod fitted. The cameras fitted on top of it (as well as all the equipment in the rear compartment) indicate that it might actually have been a "live" pod and was used in testing the firing of the Stinger missile from the OH-58A. I reckon it is a second photo of the same OH-58A from your post above. It would be interesting to know the Army serial number for this Kiowa. It would make a nice and interesting little model.

 

(I'm not sure where I found this photo but it is possibly one of Ray's scans from the US Army Aviation Museum.👍)

 

AH-1G and OH-58 Oct 7 1981 CEP 52 AC 972 and 096 Stinger Project005

 

 

LD.

The S/N of this bird is 69-16096. It was Larter converted to an OH-58C, RG - Round Glass.  Written off (Read crashed) 3/31/92.

 

Bryan

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16 hours ago, BWDenver said:

Somewhere I have the notes from an interview I did at Boeing in Philly.  I was goign to do an "In Action" for Squadron on teh 46, but they basically decided that the CH-47 was similar to the 46, so why bother...


😔 that is sad. Especially since that isn’t many books like that on the 46. 
 

That’s cool you got to put rounds down range. About 3 yrs after your photo, I had short ride on one in 29 Palms before playing tag in the desert, I think from 364, Purple Foxes. After we embarked, the bird dusted us. We did that twice. Felt like it took months to remove all sand embedded from the rotor wash. I remember that not only from the flight (felt like we punched our way through the air) and rotor wash but we were also given practice grenades that day. The day before when a practice grenade was thrown my direction on patrol by a Sgt, I didn’t know we had them. 😱😱A grenade spoon makes a distinctive sound. I needed a minute afterwards. 

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9 hours ago, Tank said:


😔 that is sad. Especially since that isn’t many books like that on the 46. 
 

That’s cool you got to put rounds down range. About 3 yrs after your photo, I had short ride on one in 29 Palms before playing tag in the desert, I think from 364, Purple Foxes. After we embarked, the bird dusted us. We did that twice. Felt like it took months to remove all sand embedded from the rotor wash. I remember that not only from the flight (felt like we punched our way through the air) and rotor wash but we were also given practice grenades that day. The day before when a practice grenade was thrown my direction on patrol by a Sgt, I didn’t know we had them. 😱😱A grenade spoon makes a distinctive sound. I needed a minute afterwards. 

Every time we crossed the border into Iraq we would drop down to 50' and test the guns.  My ruck lived under the left waist gun.  Needless to say the gun gas and various particles rained down on it.

 

When I got back to the states in late 2003 I would use the ruck to travel.  Then they swabbed it for explosives and security went berserk, it tested positive for explosives.   Security showed up and they were really nervous, and really didn't appreciate the smile on my face as they unloaded the ruck and laid everything out and poked an prodded.  They finally confronted me and I sort of chuckled, that really set them off, and I explained how the ruck got covered in explosive residue.  While they didn't like the story they had no choice but to let me board the plane.  

 

There were two different versions of the YHC-1A tested by the Army.  The first was a 1700 SHP bird, the second with bigger engines was powered by 2440 SHP, Boeing records indicate it was a "Converted YHC-1A".  I'm going to assume (not always the best) that the original bird(s) got bigger engines.  I have shots of two different birds, 85514 & 85515. There was at least one mockup of the HC-1 at Boeing, painted OD, and ARMY on the side of it.   As shown above in an eralyer post was a bird with a CH-47A, 85516

 

The shot on the WEB site of 85515 with "WELCOM TO" on the side of it was taken at Ft Benning related to Project "Man" held at Benning 1 - 4 May 1960.  A label on the back of that shot indicate the weight was 28,400 lb, cruises at e130 kts, max 150 kts, taken on 3 May 1960. 

 

The bird that ended up at NASA Langley was NASA 533.  It also looks like the Army birds lacked an APU that can be found on the later USN & USMC birds, its the small bump out on the vertical housing.  The Canadian AF CH-113 Labrador birds initially did not have an APU, the Canadian Army CH-113A Voyager birds did.  The Army birds also lacked the larger sponson fuel tanks.  The giveaway as to which it was, is the Voyager's had 4 additional nose windows above the chin bubbles.  This was so the Army pilots could better see the landing areas on ships.  After Unification the AF birds got APU and they all got painted the same color.  but they kept the nose windows.

 

Attached is a scan of a B&W shot I have of the NY Airways BV107, likely similar to the YC-1A, but with square windows.  The mockup had contours very similar to the original BV-107 around the engines.  I have a "family" tree shot from Boeing, but my scanner failed this morning when I tried to scan it.  The two direct decendents of the YCH-1A are the NY Airways BV-107 and the USMC CH-46A.HC-1_Mockup_Sm.jpg.276db8f5427f1cc437fe47d2ee3d917b.jpgBV-107_NewYorkAirways001_Sh_Ai_Sm.jpg.37d21a4b239dafb3a5b5c204ec4635e2.jpg

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