Some Pics from Army Flight Test...

[EDWMatt]

On 3/19/2023 at 9:10 PM, BWDenver said:

Not that I'm aware of.  It's only recently that they were looking at the CH-47.  They did have some H-21's.  They dabbled in heavy lift in the early 50's with the Piasecki H-16 Transporter.  But rapidly lost interest when one of the prototypes crashed.  

 

The AF might have been involved with the procurement of the YCH-1, as they were trying to dabble in Army affairs in the '60s.  Not going to say never, but I've never heard of the AF interest in the H-46.  When I was at the Boeing factory researching the 46, it didn't come up.

 

Bryan

The AF was involved in the YHC-1 procurement.  Up until 1960, the Air Force procured and tested all aircraft for the Army.  The Army wanted more control over the process and AVSCOM was established.  That is how my unit, AEFA, came to be established at Edwards.  It was formed by former Air Force flight test personnel.  The Technical Director for Army Aviation was a former Air Force flight test engineer from Edwards that had been involved in testing Army aircraft.

Dutch, have the CH-46C pics coming.  And some Chinook stuff, too

[EDWMatt]

On 3/28/2023 at 10:14 AM, Dutch said:

@rotorwash,

Ray, I'd like to go back to page 11 & 12 of this thread and revisit the LOH competition circa 1965-66.  In the photos (beautiful, btw) I can't really discern the Bell YOH-4 or Hughes YOH-6 serials, but the Fairchild-Hiller YOH-5 serials are rather prominent.  I thought that each competitor provided five examples for test.  There seems to be some confusion over the serial numbers. 

 

Here is the entry from J. Baugher's US Army & USAF serial number page for 1962:

62-4202/4206        Bell YHO-4-BF Kiowa [MSN 4/8.  Redesignated YOH-4A in 1962.]  It is believed that this batch was built as 62-4201/4205.  It was discovered that the serial of the first aircraft in the batch (62-4201) clashed with a VC-140B Jetstar.  The new serials, although allocated, were never applied.

4202: An article in a 1987 edition of 'FlyPast' magazine states that this aircraft was at US Army Aviation Museum, Fort Rucker painted with serial 62-4201. 
              4204 Assigned to US Army Aviation Test Activity (USAATA), Edwards AFB, CA.  Assigned to NASA Langley Research Center, Langley Field, VA Apr 1, 1965 to Jan 23, 1973.  Registered as NASA 532.
Assigned to Mississippi Highway Patrol; registered as N51HP; sale reported Jul 6, 1990, cancelled Dec 11, 2012.
              4206 (MSN 4) is a Bell YOH-4 preserved at US Army Aviation Museum, Fort Rucker, Alabama.  Built with the serial 62-4206, this machine was reserialled as 62-4207 when it was discovered that the serial of the first aircraft in the batch, YOH-4A 62-4201, clashed with a VC-140 Jetstar. The new serials, although allocated, were never applied and the aircraft remains painted as '624206', which is technically inaccurate, but historically correct!  The original 62-4206 was a Hiller YOH-5A.  It competed in the US Army's Light Helicopter contest.  At some point, it was found that 62-4201 had been assigned twice, to a C-140 and to a Bell YOH-4 Kiowa, and some serials were changed, and the Hiller YOH-5A was reassigned 62-4207.

 

62-4207/4210        Hiller YHO-5A-UH [Redesignated YOH-5A in 1962.]
              4207 assigned to US Army Aviation Test Activity (USAATA), Edwards AFB, CA. Assigned to NASA Langley Research Center, Langley Field, VA Oct 11, 1965 to Dec 17, 1968, registered as NASA 530.  Assigned to Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD.

 

62-4211/4216        Hughes YHO-6A Cayuse [Redesignated YOH-6A in 1962.]
             4211 (MSN 73-0006) transferred to USAF Flight Dynamics Laboratory.  Last seen derelict at Grayling, MI Jul 1980.  Registered to Kirtland Community College as N17427 Oct 15, 1974.  Cancelled Mar 2, 1981.
             4212 (MSN 73-0007) first flight Feb 25, 1964.   Transferred to USAF Mar 1979.
             4213 (MSN 73-0008) in 1987 was at US Army Aviation Museum, Fort Rucker, AL
             4214 (MSN 73-0009) last reported at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland.
             4215 (MSN 73-0010) displayed at 1965 Paris Air Show.
             4216 (MSN 73-0005) registered N9699F with Hughes 369.  Transferred to US Army

 

While Baugher explains the initial serial number error of the first YHO-4 62-4201 with the last Lockheed C-140B, he totally confuses me with his explanation of shifting serial numbers to correct the issue.  

 

Rotorspot.nl serial website helps clarify things a little. While it shows the serial shift for the YHO-4 & YHO-5 it does not specify the subsequent serial shift for the YHO-6, making 62-4211 both a YOH-5 & YOH-6.

 

Bell YHO-4:                                         CN    Regis/Serial                        Status
Bell YHO-4-BF Kiowa > YOH-4-BF    4    (62-4201 ), 62-4202             cnx
Bell YHO-4-BF Kiowa > YOH-4-BF    5    (62-4202 ), 62-4203             cnx
Bell YHO-4-BF Kiowa > YOH-4-BF    6    (62-4203 ), 62-4204 , NASA 532 , N51HP    prs
Bell YHO-4-BF Kiowa > YOH-4-BF    7    (62-4204 ), 62-4205             cnx
Bell YHO-4-BF Kiowa > YOH-4-BF    8    (62-4205 ), 62-4206             prs
         

Fairchild-Hiller YHO-5:                   CN    Regis/Serial                    Status
Hiller YHO-5-UH > YOH-5A-UH    4    (62-4206 ), 62-4207 , NASA 530         cnx
Hiller YHO-5-UH > YOH-5A-UH    5    (62-4207 ), 62-4208 , N815Z, '62-4208 '    prs
Hiller YHO-5-UH > YOH-5A-UH    6    (62-4208 ), 62-4209             cnx
Hiller YHO-5-UH > YOH-5A-UH    7    (62-4209 ), 62-4210             cnx
Hiller YHO-5-UH > YOH-5A-UH    8    (62-4210 ), 62-4211             cnx

 

Hughes YHO-6:                                                               CN        Regis/Serial        Status
Hughes 369 > YHO-6A-HU Cayuse > YOH-6A-HU    430004        N9698F, 62-12624     prs
Hughes 369 > YHO-6A-HU Cayuse > YOH-6A-HU    730005        N9699F, 62-4216     cnx
Hughes YHO-6A-HU Cayuse > YOH-6A-HU    730006        62-4211 , N17427    wfu
Hughes YHO-6A-HU Cayuse > YOH-6A-HU    730007        62-4212         cnx
Hughes YHO-6A-HU Cayuse > YOH-6A-HU    730008        62-4213         prs
Hughes YHO-6A-HU Cayuse > YOH-6A-HU    730009        62-4214         cnx
Hughes YHO-6A-HU Cayuse > YOH-6A-HU    730010        62-4215         cnx

 

Another issue arises from the Rotorspot.nl serial listing.  Bell & Fairchild-Hiller furnished five machines each, while Hughes furnished six or seven? 

 

Lastly, one of the b&w FH-1100 photos on page 11 of this thread shows the removal of the aft engine cover. It appears that a civil registration is N81006?   

 

Thanks for posting these excellent photos and mini-articles.  I love it!

Kind regards,
Dutch
 

 

Dutch, I've got some LOH stuff coming soon.  Just have to clean up the scans a bit.  I've been really busy lately, had to travel out of the country for a bit, and I'm trying to get a first flight off on an aircraft.  Soon, though!

[BWDenver]

15 hours ago, Tank said:

15 May 90 

Fuel System Kit, Increased Capacity Stubwing, CH-46E SR&M (ECP 537)

15 Aug 90

 

2 Jan 91

Helicopter Emergency Flotation System, Installation (ECP H-46-544)
1 May 91

 

HTH

Great info, what was the capacity increased to?

 

Bryan

[BWDenver]

8 minutes ago, EDWMatt said:

The AF was involved in the YHC-1 procurement.  Up until 1960, the Air Force procured and tested all aircraft for the Army.  The Army wanted more control over the process and AVSCOM was established.  That is how my unit, AEFA, came to be established at Edwards.  It was formed by former Air Force flight test personnel.  The Technical Director for Army Aviation was a former Air Force flight test engineer from Edwards that had been involved in testing Army aircraft.

Dutch, have the CH-46C pics coming.  And some Chinook stuff, too

You are absolutely correct on the YHC-1, prior to 6 Nov 1956 the AF had an iron grip on Army aircraft procurement. 

 

However, in an MOA dated 6 Nov 1956 issued by Assistant Secretary of Defense (Supply and Logistics) gave the Army access to the Navy for procurement of some AC and aviation equipment.  As the Navy had responsibility for the OH-13 and OH-23, the Army went through the Navy directly to obtain these two airframes by passing the Air Force.  Additional OH-13/OH-23's were purchased from the Navy via a NIPR.  They also utilized the Navy for initial Aquisition of the engine that would become the Allison 250-18.  The proposals that lead to the LOH were a joint Navy Army working group.  Needleless to say there were more than a few Stars in the Army who loathed going to the Air Force for aircraft.  In 1060 OSD killed an Army plan to assume full control of it's aircraft Aquisition.  However, the Army was given authority, via OSD, to acquire FAA certified "off the shelf" aircraft and engines from the civil market.

 

The last bird I flew in the Army was the CH-487D, hard to believe it was regarded as a complete disaster in the early YHC-1 days.

 

EDWMatt, I would love to see your stuff on the LOH as I'm working on a book for the OH-58/206.  At some point I would love to talk to you about your work at Edwards.

 

Bryan

[BWDenver]

9 hours ago, Dutch said:

Bryan,

Excellent photo.  In the foreground, 153960 shows the wheel/fuel sponson extended forward to just under the third cabin window, hence a true Bull Phrog.  On the CH-46E in the background, the sponson only extends to half way between the third and fourth cabin window, hence NOT a Bull Phrog, but still an E will all the other rotor, hydraulics  and avionics upgrades at the time.  Not all E's were converted to Bull Phrogs at NADEP Cherry Point.  Not sure why. Maybe a funding issue. 

K/r,

Dutch    

Dutch, Here's a Boeing shot of the float deployed at the factory in an engineering test.  the scoops are to increase stabilization.  Boeing shot

[BWDenver]

9 hours ago, Dutch said:

Bryan,

Excellent photo.  In the foreground, 153960 shows the wheel/fuel sponson extended forward to just under the third cabin window, hence a true Bull Phrog.  On the CH-46E in the background, the sponson only extends to half way between the third and fourth cabin window, hence NOT a Bull Phrog, but still an E will all the other rotor, hydraulics  and avionics upgrades at the time.  Not all E's were converted to Bull Phrogs at NADEP Cherry Point.  Not sure why. Maybe a funding issue. 

K/r,

Dutch    

Dutch,

 

Not sure when the program started that created the Bull Phrog.  The SR&M program was initiated in the 80's, but in the early 90's not all the birds had been updated to the Bull Phrog config.  and as you pointed out, not all the birds go the big tanks. 

 

I was going over some engineering drawings the other day and came across a tid bit, the H-46A and H-46D had a short pylon, and an overall fuselage length of 540.3".  While the CH-46D and CH-46F had a long pylon and overall length 547.5".  Both the NATOPS manuals I have H-46D SR&M and CH-46E have the fuselage at 45' 8".  I have a fascinating flight manual on the HKP-4A dated 1985-12-10, but unfortunately, I don't speak or read Swedish!  The HPK-4A fuselage was 45' 6", this manual has a ton of info and detail, more so than any other flight manual I've seen or used.

 

I've got a shot of a shot up H-46A that later turned up at Cherry Point as HH-46D 151948 -  PEDRO, in the rescue configuration.  Really with Squadron Signal had not killed the 46 work as I have a lot of interesting shots and stuff on the Phrog...

[EDWMatt]

3 hours ago, BWDenver said:

You are absolutely correct on the YHC-1, prior to 6 Nov 1956 the AF had an iron grip on Army aircraft procurement. 

 

However, in an MOA dated 6 Nov 1956 issued by Assistant Secretary of Defense (Supply and Logistics) gave the Army access to the Navy for procurement of some AC and aviation equipment.  As the Navy had responsibility for the OH-13 and OH-23, the Army went through the Navy directly to obtain these two airframes by passing the Air Force.  Additional OH-13/OH-23's were purchased from the Navy via a NIPR.  They also utilized the Navy for initial Aquisition of the engine that would become the Allison 250-18.  The proposals that lead to the LOH were a joint Navy Army working group.  Needleless to say there were more than a few Stars in the Army who loathed going to the Air Force for aircraft.  In 1060 OSD killed an Army plan to assume full control of it's aircraft Aquisition.  However, the Army was given authority, via OSD, to acquire FAA certified "off the shelf" aircraft and engines from the civil market.

 

The last bird I flew in the Army was the CH-487D, hard to believe it was regarded as a complete disaster in the early YHC-1 days.

 

EDWMatt, I would love to see your stuff on the LOH as I'm working on a book for the OH-58/206.  At some point I would love to talk to you about your work at Edwards.

 

Bryan

I'll defer to you, Bryan, as you've obviously done the research.  I was just speaking from lore and the official ATCOM history documents.

I'll have some LOH pics up before TOO long.  I MAY also have some LOH flight test reports, but am not positive about that.  Would love to chat with you sometime about my time at AEFA/AQTD

[BWDenver]

2 hours ago, EDWMatt said:

I'll defer to you, Bryan, as you've obviously done the research.  I was just speaking from lore and the official ATCOM history documents.

I'll have some LOH pics up before TOO long.  I MAY also have some LOH flight test reports, but am not positive about that.  Would love to chat with you sometime about my time at AEFA/AQTD

Hi Matt,

 

Likely a lot of what your heard was accurate, I just know of some of the broad strokes. 

 

You can get in touch with me via email initially.  BryanHWilburn@Reagan.com.  As an aside, I was one of the pilots that delivered the UH-1H RC birds to Edwards in late 1975.  I think at least one of them were kept with the fire suppression gear.  We had a lot of fun working 500 Gal fuel spills in the Gray AAF fire pit.  One of the most memorable was a nigh fire training session, it got awful dark when the fire went out!

 

When you get a chance reach out and we'll see about putting something together.

 

Regards,

 

Bryan Wilburn

[Dutch]

6 hours ago, EDWMatt said:

Dutch, I've got some LOH stuff coming soon.  Just have to clean up the scans a bit.  I've been really busy lately, had to travel out of the country for a bit, and I'm trying to get a first flight off on an aircraft.  Soon, though!

Ed thanks!  I can wait.  I'll be out of the country next month and again in June.  Usual sandbox tour. Kind regards, Dutch

[Dutch]

5 hours ago, BWDenver said:

Dutch,

 

Not sure when the program started that created the Bull Phrog.  The SR&M program was initiated in the 80's, but in the early 90's not all the birds had been updated to the Bull Phrog config.  and as you pointed out, not all the birds go the big tanks. 

 

I was going over some engineering drawings the other day and came across a tid bit, the H-46A and H-46D had a short pylon, and an overall fuselage length of 540.3".  While the CH-46D and CH-46F had a long pylon and overall length 547.5".  Both the NATOPS manuals I have H-46D SR&M and CH-46E have the fuselage at 45' 8".  I have a fascinating flight manual on the HKP-4A dated 1985-12-10, but unfortunately, I don't speak or read Swedish!  The HPK-4A fuselage was 45' 6", this manual has a ton of info and detail, more so than any other flight manual I've seen or used.

 

I've got a shot of a shot up H-46A that later turned up at Cherry Point as HH-46D 151948 -  PEDRO, in the rescue configuration.  Really with Squadron Signal had not killed the 46 work as I have a lot of interesting shots and stuff on the Phrog...

Bryan,

I think the differing lengths were due to the different APUs.  The A models and early Ds had a smalll APU, while later Ds(*), & Fs had the larger APU with a longer tail pylon.  

(*) I will have to go research where in the BuNo sequence the changes were made on the production line between early & late Ds. Certainly, all the UH-46Ds for the Navy were the early version.

 

As to the flotation bags, after a few years in service, certainly after the first sea deployment, the water tight tape seal around the whole thing became not so water tight and leaked.  Rain water would drip down the fuselage side and collect in the folds of the float bag.  The whole rig added 700 pounds to the bird dry, if I remember correctly, not including the added rain water.  We would uninstall them for prolonged periods of overland flying.  Even with the uprated engines and cambered rotors upon conversion to E model, we still could not carry a full complement of Marines in the back with the flotation bags.  None of the crews were a fan. We were not sad to see them go.  The last four Phrogs were the HH-46E Pedros at Cherry Point, and I think two of them did not have the bags and two did because they routinely flew over water to cover their rescue area of responsibility.  

Edited April 15, 2023 by Dutch

[BWDenver]

I think that took place when I was at the MCCOG at Quantico.  

 

Your point about the APU is interesting.  Below is a close up of the engineering drawing showing the outline of the short and long pylons.  While I knew about the APU VS No APU on the BV/KV birds I did not know about the differences in the pylons.  I pretty much stopped research on the Phrog about 5 years ago, focusing instead on the OH-58/206.

 

Have managed to get a lot of shots, and two different types of IR suppressor stacks.

Edited April 15, 2023 by BWDenver

[Tank]

18 hours ago, BWDenver said:

Great info, what was the capacity increased to?

 

Bryan

Unknown in that document, it was just listing of changes not what the changes are outside of the title listed. wiki specs list 350 US gal for the E model, not sure about the accuracy of that information.

[BWDenver]

1 hour ago, Tank said:

Unknown in that document, it was just listing of changes not what the changes are outside of the title listed. wiki specs list 350 US gal for the E model, not sure about the accuracy of that information.

That would likely be the figure for unmodified systems, as the cell 1 & 2 in the NATOPS 15 Aug 1985 CH-46E (SR&M) manual I have list them at 177.6 Gql each, (I think I misread the doc earlier.)  With provisions for up to 3 250 Gal internal tanks on pallets.  The little sir scoop on the Port side near the top of the cabin is to pressurize the (to a degree) the aux tanks.  You can see it in most shots of the SR&M birds, mid way up the "M" for MARINES.  Sometimes it spans both the M & A.  I have s shot of a CH-46E 153372 at PAX, that apparently is one of the prototypes(?), it lacks the air scoop, although there does appear to be some sort of vent in the area.

 

The attached shot is of one of the 250 Gal tanks carried on the GunEx I went on.  The line from the top of the tank appears to go to the vent.  The line at the bottom lft would goes to the left stub wing tank.  Most the birds I saw lacked the sound proofing in the cabin.  In the CH-47D's we always had the sound proofing, although the damage to my hearing points to the fact it did little to dampen the cabin noise!

 

Bryan

[Loach Driver]

23 hours ago, EDWMatt said:

I'll have some LOH pics up before TOO long.  I MAY also have some LOH flight test reports, but am not positive about that.  

This sounds very interesting. Looking forward to the LOH photos, especially any OH-6A pics! And hopefully you do get the opportunity to post up the flight test reports.

 

LD.

[EDWMatt]

On 4/14/2023 at 5:24 PM, BWDenver said:

Hi Matt,

 

Likely a lot of what your heard was accurate, I just know of some of the broad strokes. 

 

You can get in touch with me via email initially.  BryanHWilburn@Reagan.com.  As an aside, I was one of the pilots that delivered the UH-1H RC birds to Edwards in late 1975.  I think at least one of them were kept with the fire suppression gear.  We had a lot of fun working 500 Gal fuel spills in the Gray AAF fire pit.  One of the most memorable was a nigh fire training session, it got awful dark when the fire went out!

 

When you get a chance reach out and we'll see about putting something together.

 

Regards,

 

Bryan Wilburn

Cool beans!  I'll be in touch, but I'm sometimes a little slow getting my act together.  I'm supposed to be retired, but it seems I'm busier than ever.

 

Cool story on the Hueys.  We had 3 "Firebirds", 70-16295, 296 and 331.  295 and 296 retained the light water kits and booms until the late '80' or early '90's and carried "Crash Rescue" markings on the doors.  We very 'occasionally' did suppression training at the Edwards fire pit (maybe once every couple years). My first ever Army Huey flight was in 295.  I don't ever remember the kit being installed in 331 while I was there.  I used 331 to test the ERA high gear/pop-out floats for the Kwaj birds.

[BWDenver]

19 hours ago, EDWMatt said:

Cool beans!  I'll be in touch, but I'm sometimes a little slow getting my act together.  I'm supposed to be retired, but it seems I'm busier than ever.

 

Cool story on the Hueys.  We had 3 "Firebirds", 70-16295, 296 and 331.  295 and 296 retained the light water kits and booms until the late '80' or early '90's and carried "Crash Rescue" markings on the doors.  We very 'occasionally' did suppression training at the Edwards fire pit (maybe once every couple years). My first ever Army Huey flight was in 295.  I don't ever remember the kit being installed in 331 while I was there.  I used 331 to test the ERA high gear/pop-out floats for the Kwaj birds.

Great info!  I flew 296 to EDW.  Planed the flight over a weekend and had a great time.  I made sure we did an RON at DM so I could photograph the Bone Yard on the way out.

 

Bryan

[NRALIFR]

Greetings helicopter modelers.
 

I’m not a modeler myself, but I found this topic while searching for some historical information about a specific USAF CH-3E helicopter. The helicopter’s tail number is 65-12797, and I worked on it at Tyndall AFB from 1978-1981 when I was enlisted in the Air Force. I hope it’s OK if I post on this old topic, as there appear to be a few members contributing to it of the correct “vintage” and background to have possibly encountered this helicopter in their past. I was unable to get registered as a forum member, so I couldn’t open a new topic. 
 

Edit: When I posted this, the member registration process worked and I was able to get signed up as a member. I wasn’t getting the confirmation email for all of my previous attempts, but for some reason it worked this time. No problem, I’ll just leave this be for now. If admin wants me to open a new topic I’ll be happy to do so. 
 

From about 1970 to 1981, 797 was configured for mid-air retrieval of drones (UAV’s), and had some specific equipment installed to support that mission. 

 

The known history of this helicopter shows that it was built in 1965, and originally belonged to the US Army. In 1968 it was transferred to the USAF, and was at Holloman AFB, NM until 1970. From 1970-1973 it was at Edwards AFB, CA and this may be where the mid-air retrieval (MARS) equipment was installed. From 1973-1975 it was at Hill AFB, UT and then at Tyndall AFB, FL from 1975-1981 where I encountered it.
 

It was performing mid-air retrieval missions the entire time at Tyndall, and I suspect at Hill and Edwards as well. The MARS equipment, which included a large computer controlled winch installed inside the cargo area and the removal of the rear cargo ramp made the helicopter unsuitable for other missions.

 

The last maintenance I did on 797 was to remove all of the MARS-specific equipment, and ready it for transfer to Myrtle Beach AFB, SC in 1981. A rear ramp was acquired and reinstalled at some point. It was assigned to MB from 1981-1982, and then was moved to Patrick AFB, FL. At some point after that it was retired from service, and spent several years on display at the Warner Robbins AFB museum, GA. It was then acquired in 2000 by the Carolinas Aviation Museum in Charlotte, NC which has since been renamed the Sullenberger Aviation Museum. 
 

What I’m looking for is any historical information and especially pictures of 797 from the time periods before 1977 and after 1981. A picture of it in Army colors would be priceless. I’m not affiliated or working for the museum. I’ve been collecting information about all of the helicopters I worked on at Tyndall for several years, and it’s become sort of a hobby for me. 797 is the only one that managed to avoid the scrapyard. The information and pictures I collect MAY ultimately end up being donated to the museum however. I’ve had occasional contact with museum staff ever since discovering that 797 was part of their collection. 
 

There were very few H-3 helicopters configured for MARS missions. I remember there were four of them at Tyndall, and that could very well have been the total number of them at that time. The H-3 MARS missions got their start during the Vietnam War, and were performed by a group known as the Buffalo Hunters. As the H-3’s were retired, the limited number of MARS missions were performed by H-53’s. 

 

If anyone has information and/or photos of 797, l would love to hear from you. I can be reached at this email:

*********Removed and deactivated temp email. Please use forum messenger. *********

I’ll also keep any eye on this topic to see what happens with it. 

 

This is 797 at Tyndall AFB, FL about 1979. Note that it has no rear ramp, and the mid air retrieval catch poles are extended out the back.

This is 797 after a MARS mission. The drone is a BQM-34A subsonic model. 
 

 

This is 797 at the Sullenberger Aviation Museum. I’m hoping they are able to refurbish it sometime soon!
 

 

Thanks for any help you can provide!

 

Kevin

Edited June 26, 2025 by NRALIFR
Removed and deactivated temp email. Please use forum messenger.

[JohnEB]

In my books it days the USAF procured or tested a Vertol 107.

Any photos of one in USAF markings?

[andyf117]

1 hour ago, JohnEB said:

In my books it days the USAF procured or tested a Vertol 107.

Any photos of one in USAF markings?

There was a promotional film which tried to sell it to them, but as far as I'm aware none ever wore AF titles: 

U.S. AIR FORCE MISSIONS WITH THE BOEING-VERTOL 107

[BWDenver]

I'm not sure if this is an actual bird or a PR add.  It is likely Boeing painted it up as a sales promotion.

 

At the time USAF had Test and Eval responsibility for the Army.  I believe the CH-47A was the first departure where the Army controlled the Test and Eval work, with USAF trying to control the issue.

[Loach Driver]

On 6/16/2025 at 8:20 PM, NRALIFR said:

Greetings helicopter modelers.
 

I’m not a modeler myself, but I found this topic while searching for some historical information about a specific USAF CH-3E helicopter. The helicopter’s tail number is 65-12797, and I worked on it at Tyndall AFB from 1978-1981 when I was enlisted in the Air Force. I hope it’s OK if I post on this old topic, as there appear to be a few members contributing to it of the correct “vintage” and background to have possibly encountered this helicopter in their past. I was unable to get registered as a forum member, so I couldn’t open a new topic. 
 

Edit: When I posted this, the member registration process worked and I was able to get signed up as a member. I wasn’t getting the confirmation email for all of my previous attempts, but for some reason it worked this time. No problem, I’ll just leave this be for now. If admin wants me to open a new topic I’ll be happy to do so. 
 

From about 1970 to 1981, 797 was configured for mid-air retrieval of drones (UAV’s), and had some specific equipment installed to support that mission. 

 

The known history of this helicopter shows that it was built in 1965, and originally belonged to the US Army. In 1968 it was transferred to the USAF, and was at Holloman AFB, NM until 1970. From 1970-1973 it was at Edwards AFB, CA and this may be where the mid-air retrieval (MARS) equipment was installed. From 1973-1975 it was at Hill AFB, UT and then at Tyndall AFB, FL from 1975-1981 where I encountered it.
 

It was performing mid-air retrieval missions the entire time at Tyndall, and I suspect at Hill and Edwards as well. The MARS equipment, which included a large computer controlled winch installed inside the cargo area and the removal of the rear cargo ramp made the helicopter unsuitable for other missions.

 

The last maintenance I did on 797 was to remove all of the MARS-specific equipment, and ready it for transfer to Myrtle Beach AFB, SC in 1981. A rear ramp was acquired and reinstalled at some point. It was assigned to MB from 1981-1982, and then was moved to Patrick AFB, FL. At some point after that it was retired from service, and spent several years on display at the Warner Robbins AFB museum, GA. It was then acquired in 2000 by the Carolinas Aviation Museum in Charlotte, NC which has since been renamed the Sullenberger Aviation Museum. 
 

What I’m looking for is any historical information and especially pictures of 797 from the time periods before 1977 and after 1981. A picture of it in Army colors would be priceless. I’m not affiliated or working for the museum. I’ve been collecting information about all of the helicopters I worked on at Tyndall for several years, and it’s become sort of a hobby for me. 797 is the only one that managed to avoid the scrapyard. The information and pictures I collect MAY ultimately end up being donated to the museum however. I’ve had occasional contact with museum staff ever since discovering that 797 was part of their collection. 
 

There were very few H-3 helicopters configured for MARS missions. I remember there were four of them at Tyndall, and that could very well have been the total number of them at that time. The H-3 MARS missions got their start during the Vietnam War, and were performed by a group known as the Buffalo Hunters. As the H-3’s were retired, the limited number of MARS missions were performed by H-53’s. 

 

If anyone has information and/or photos of 797, l would love to hear from you. I can be reached at this email:

gem.saloons_8v@icloud.com

I’ll also keep any eye on this topic to see what happens with it. 

 

This is 797 at Tyndall AFB, FL about 1979. Note that it has no rear ramp, and the mid air retrieval catch poles are extended out the back.

This is 797 after a MARS mission. The drone is a BQM-34A subsonic model. 
 

 

This is 797 at the Sullenberger Aviation Museum. I’m hoping they are able to refurbish it sometime soon!
 

 

Thanks for any help you can provide!

 

Kevin

 

I've had a look through my saved photos of the HH-3 and I can't find anything on that model doing the MARS mission. All references I have on MARS are for the HH-53C in that roll. I couldn't find any photos of 797 either.

 

LD.

Edited June 27, 2025 by Loach Driver

[andyf117]

1 hour ago, Loach Driver said:

 

I've had a look through my saved photos of the HH-3 and I can't find anything on that model doing the MARS mission. All references I gave on MARS are for the HH-53C in that roll. I couldn't find any photos of 797 either.

https://rotorheadsrus.us/documents/173.html

https://rotorheadsrus.us/documents/448.html (sequenced slide show of a MARS recovery)

 

A BQM-34 F Firebee drone is recovered in mid air by a CH-3 helicopter, in tests at Edwards AFB, California

 

Edited June 20, 2025 by andyf117

[BWDenver]

Some odds and end shots from the San Diago Archives.

 

Holloman AFB

 

 

 

 

Be careful where you land...

 

SEA

 

 

 

 

Variations on paint, Holloman AFB...

 

 

 

ROK

 

[NRALIFR]

LD, thank you for looking through your photos for me. If you do happen to come across anything later, remember that my email address is in my first post. 
 

Andy, those are great links you provided. I actually found both the rotorheadsrus and criticalpast sites a few years back when I first started looking for information about the helicopters I used to work on. It’s amazing what you can dig up on the web about a specific aircraft if you can remember the tail number. The rotorheadsrus site was actually how I learned of the 20th Helicopter Squadron and the Buffalo Hunters. I had never heard of them while I was in the Air Force, though I was only on active duty for one enlistment. The very first image in the slideshow running at the top of the Buffalo Hunters page is of another helicopter I worked on at Tyndall, 65-12800. That one ended up in the same helicopter scrapyard (Carson Helicopters) as the one Bryan posted pictures of, 63-9690. 
 

This is a picture I took of 65-12800 at Tyndall, about 1978. Both 797 and 800 were originally Army helicopters. A picture of either one in Army livery would be very cool. 
 

And here it is in the scrapyard. 
 

 

The other two MARS birds we had were 64-14223 and 64-14226. Both were scrapped, but I’m not sure where. 

 

I’ve learned since I first started searching for information about them that there is very little available on the web about the MARS program, the Buffalo Hunters and the type of missions they flew, and the H-3 MARS birds in particular. After finding that 797 was at the Sullenberger Aviation Museum, I’ve communicated with them about what I know of its service life. As far as I know, it was never in Vietnam, it of course was never converted to an HH-3 so any “Rescue” missions it flew would have been very early in its service life with the original tripod rescue hoist apparatus that didn’t work very well. I’ve encouraged the museum staff to consider returning 797 to the appearance of a MARS bird if they ever have the funds to refurbish it, since that’s what it did the majority of its active service life with the USAF. Unfortunately, 797 isn’t SAM’s highest priority at this time, and I get that. They just built a new facility, and their signature exhibit is the Miracle on the Hudson Airbus A320. There’s still a lot of work to do on it. My hope is that they are eventually able to refurbish it, hopefully in my lifetime, and I have a feeling they are going to have the same problem I’ve had finding information about midair retrieval, the Buffalo Hunters, the MARS winch, etc. 

 

Bryan-Those pictures you posted are awesome! I didn’t know they were flying MARS missions at Holloman.
 

The second image is obviously inside the H-3 cabin during a MARS mission. The winch is an early model with an open drum reel, and you can see the drone engagement chute is wound up around it with the cable, so the drone is obviously hanging under the helicopter when the picture was taken. By the time I was in the Air Force, the winch design had changed to look like this. As the caption says thats inside an H-53, but it’s the same model 80H winch built by All American Engineering that was installed on all four H-3 MARS birds. 

 

The color image of 690 looks like it was taken at an on-base airshow or open house. I don’t know if the three monochrome images have any text information with them to identify the helicopter, but I believe those are of 690 as well. It was assigned to the 20th HS in Thailand around 1968.  It apparently had to land on the aircraft carrier USS Bennington for some reason. Probably only did that once!

 

Bryan, it appears you have access to some images that the museum is probably never going to find on their own. If I give you a name and email address, would you be willing to contact them and just let them know you have this stuff, it’s related to the H-3 midair retrieval mission, and they may someday need if they choose to refurb 797 to a MARS helicopter? Even though these aren’t of 797, they could still be used to provide background and historical information on any interpretive signage around the aircraft. The way 797 is displayed currently is more of a tribute to the Vietnam-era Jolly Green Giant rescue helicopters, which is how every other H-3 on “museum duty” is displayed. I’d sure like to see them update their display to show the unique mission that 797 performed. I know they have a database of information they are saving about 797 to be used in the future. They’ve saved what little I’ve given them and I know they can do the same with yours. 
 

Thanks again guys!

 

Kevin

[BWDenver]

10 hours ago, NRALIFR said:

 

 

Bryan, it appears you have access to some images that the museum is probably never going to find on their own. If I give you a name and email address, would you be willing to contact them and just let them know you have this stuff, it’s related to the H-3 midair retrieval mission, and they may someday need if they choose to refurb 797 to a MARS helicopter?

 

Kevin

Send me a message and I'll forward it.  I came across the images when I was researching Firebee drones.  A large number of drones had a ground impact cushion that popped out of the bottom of the drone.  A lot of the recovery's were after it landed, but the SH-3's clearly had the equipment installed at Holloman AFB.   the 147's were tested at Holloman, and the birds destined to fly over Viet Nam appear to be MARS recovered.

 

The images came from the Ryan files that were dumped to the San Diago Aviation Museum archies, online with Flicker.  I went through thousands of images to sift through and find info on the 147 Drones.

 

Regards,

 

Bryan