Which RLM74??

[Helidriver]

I am at the painting stage of a FW190, and hit upon a small snag.

It specifies RLM74 as one of the colors, but a search gives me two different RLM74, and I can't find a good resource/explanation as to which one to use.

[ThatJeffGuy]

I always get 74/75 mixed up in my head but IPMS Stockholm says RLM74 is Graugrun or Dunkelgrau so it's greyish green and not

the grau-violet 75 I always mix it up with :D

[GGoheen]

RLM74 is the darker than RLM75, which is how I remember the differences.

Greg

[toadwbg]

I recently esed Gunze's RLM 74 and based on some researh added some Tamiya xf27 black green to taste to get some Green flavor going on. It's subtle but I'm happy with the result.

[Helidriver]

http://www.squadron.com/SearchResults.asp?offset=0

Thanks guys, but the problem I am having is that according to Squadron RLM 74 comes as BOTH Gray Green AND Dark Gray....so which one do I order?

I have seen FWs with what looks like green/gray camo, AND with dark/not so dark gray camo....so which one is correct???

KEn

[Patrick_Nevin]

I have seen FWs with what looks like green/gray camo, AND with dark/not so dark gray camo....so which one is correct???

I just dug out the colour chips from Merrick II. The 74 isn't obviously green to me, it looks gray, which means it's subtle as I can't see cunning shades of green. The woman (perfect colour vision) says 'grayish-blue-green' if that's any use.

Patrick

[mhorina]

When first used RLM 74 was more grey later in the war 74 became more green. Could have been because of material shortages later in the war and the paints had to be reformulated. Probably was why after the introduction of 81,82,83, 74 (now greener)was discontinued but 75 (still greyish) was used till the end.

Mike Horina

[Helidriver]

When first used RLM 74 was more grey later in the war 74 became more green. Could have been because of material shortages later in the war and the paints had to be reformulated. Probably was why after the introduction of 81,82,83, 74 (now greener)was discontinued but 75 (still greyish) was used till the end.

Mike Horina

Ah, that explains a few things!!

thanks a lot

Ken

[Chuck1945]

When first used RLM 74 was more grey later in the war 74 became more green. Could have been because of material shortages later in the war and the paints had to be reformulated. Probably was why after the introduction of 81,82,83, 74 (now greener)was discontinued but 75 (still greyish) was used till the end.

Mike Horina

I am not aware of any research indicating a change in RLM 74. Both Merrick and Ullman certainly don't show an early and late version. RLM 74 (German name dunkelgrau) was a dark grey. Weathering could perhaps alter the shade somewhat, although the life span of most Luftwaffe fighters was too short for that to be an issue.

Helidriver, what you saw on the Squadron site were names two different makers used for basically the same thing. One was Testors Model Master enamel and the other was PolyScale's acrylic. I dont use enamels, and have heard some criticism as to the accuracy of some of Model Master's Luftwaffe colors so I cant comment on the MM version. I have used PolyScale's RLM74 and it seems to be fairly accurate.

[agboak]

I did manage to get an ruling on this from Ken Merrick himself , on one board some time ago. He described it as a dark grey with only a very faint touch of green, which was difficult to see except (IIRC) when closeup and new. So representations of it as dark green, as in some Sq Signal books, are definitely wrong.

There are no official names for these colours: if one (original) source calls it Dark Grey and another Grey Green, one is as right and as wrong as the other. I feel that calling it Grey Green leads to the expectation of a stronger green than actually existed, but that's just me.

[Helidriver]

Ok. Thanks again guys. Learning more and more.

Looks like its PolyScale for me. BTW, how is Mr. Colors version when it comes to realism?

Ken

[GGoheen]

Ken,

Gunze/GSI Creos Mr. Color (and Mr. Hobby) are quite possibly the most precise representations of RLM colors that are ready-made and involve no need to mix on your own. I've been using for years and they truly are fantastic, resilient and extremely accurate when compared to the original chips. Here's a few of the more popular colors and their corresponding item numbers:

RLM02 (Mr. Hobby C060)

RLM66 (Mr. Hobby C116)

RLM70 (Mr. Hobby C018)

RLM71 (Mr. Hobby C017)

RLM74 (Mr. Hobby C036)

RLM75 (Mr. Hobby C037)

RLM76 (Mr. Hobby C117)

Greg

PS ~ Chucks comment above regarding different shades of RLM 74 & 75 is quite accurate as well, as I've not found any supporting documentation regarding their being, for example, a mid-war example of RLM 74 versus a late war version. I'd support the notion that any tonal differences you might see would be attributed more towards wear and fading, as well as film used to take these pictures.

[toadwbg]

I second Greg's Gunze/GSI Creos Mr. Color (and Mr. Hobby) recommendations. Because they are hard to come by (have to order mine from Luckymodel), I have used the below as guidelines to mix Tamiya to match. Note, the below is only a guideline and is a good starting point but trust your own Mark 1 eyeball.

Wish Tamiya would offer a couple more matches right out of the bottle, especially RLM71 which is a often-used color on subjects and seems to have a wide-range of interpretations.

LUFTWAFFE

RLM 02:- XF22:1 + XF49:1 (I add white to taste)

RLM 65:- XF23:1 + XF2:1

RLM 70: XF27

RLM 71:- XF62:1 + XF49:1

RLM 74:- XF24:3 + XF27:2

RLM 75:- XF24:5 + XF50:1

RLM 76:- XF2:7 + XF23:1 + XF66:2

RLM 79:- XF59:3 + XF64:1

RLM 80:- XF58

RLM 81:- XF51:1 + XF64:2

RLM 82:- XF5 or XF5:1 + XF2:1 or XF5:1 +XF3:1 (Bright Green)

RLM 83:- XF61 or XF24:1 + XF51:1 (Dark Green)

Edited January 16, 2010 by toadwbg

[bergr]

Hello from Germany,

all you have to know is written on this site http://www.rlm-farben.de/ . You can try to translate with babelfish. Here in Germany k. Merrick has a very good reputation. The colortable in his second book is made by Jürgen Kiroff`s company wich was involved in restoration of Bf 110 showing in Deutsches Technikmuseum Berlin http://airventure.de/tipspics/DTMB/me110.JPG .

Jürgen Kiroff made paints like original prescription from RLM.

The best choice you can have are JPS colors from Germany. But there are hard to find. The closesed choice are Gunze paints. I use them...

@ Mike Horina

Wich source do you have to tell us this truth? May be in German I would try to translate it ...

[mhorina]

Hello from Germany,

all you have to know is written on this site http://www.rlm-farben.de/ . You can try to translate with babelfish. Here in Germany k. Merrick has a very good reputation. The colortable in his second book is made by Jürgen Kiroff`s company wich was involved in restoration of Bf 110 showing in Deutsches Technikmuseum Berlin http://airventure.de/tipspics/DTMB/me110.JPG .

Jürgen Kiroff made paints like original prescription from RLM.

The best choice you can have are JPS colors from Germany. But there are hard to find. The closesed choice are Gunze paints. I use them...

@ Mike Horina

Wich source do you have to tell us this truth? May be in German I would try to translate it ... :)

The Official Monogram Guide To German Aircraft 1935-1945 by Kenneth A. Merrick & Thomas H. Hitchcock the color swatches for 74 on pages 25 and 35 are called out as Graugrun Gray-Green. In Lufftwaffe Colours 1935-1945 by Michael Ullman on page 188 (1st Edition) says Luftwaffe Regulation Sheet No 1 of 5 January 1942 describes the serious position regarding chrome and recommends that both the Army and Luftwaffe should make the most sparing use of chrome. RLM shades will be withdrawn in future 65,70, 71 and 74. A preponderant majority of the colours listed were green or included a large green proportion.

I never quoted anyone this is just my humble opinion of what I read and how I applied it to so many of the variables in Lufftwaffe camoflage. Maybe the various model paint companies are also confused or maybe they know more.Find the guy who painted the aircraft in the 1935 - 1945 period I'm sure he'd know more. I have nothing more to say in this matter.

[f4h1phantom]

Hello from Germany,

all you have to know is written on this site http://www.rlm-farben.de/ . You can try to translate with babelfish. Here in Germany k. Merrick has a very good reputation. The colortable in his second book is made by Jürgen Kiroff`s company wich was involved in restoration of Bf 110 showing in Deutsches Technikmuseum Berlin http://airventure.de/tipspics/DTMB/me110.JPG .

Jürgen Kiroff made paints like original prescription from RLM.

The best choice you can have are JPS colors from Germany. But there are hard to find. The closesed choice are Gunze paints. I use them...

Hi,

I am no expert on Luftwaffe WW II colors and, as I live in Argentina, have never been able to carry out any direct research on any aircraft or parts still painted in the original colors. I find the subject very interesting though and have tried to keep up to date on the latest discoveries found by other researchers.

I have always tried to keep an open mind, but one pill I have been never able to swallow is that one about the revised interpretation of the exact hue of RLM 74. My main source to try to understand the subject are published color pictures and descriptions made by others on colors found on original parts, which can be found on both books and the net.

I am not very good with the german language but if I am not mistaken it is mentioned in RLM-farben.de that pictures are not good for color interpretation, which is of course something that I agree with because of the myriad of factors involved (exposure, film used, lighting, color shifts due to print processing and printing, etc., besides the changes the paint goes through after actual application on the aircraft). However, I think they are useful to at least give a general impression of things, and I am of the impression that RLM 74 was just GREY, not a GREEN-GREY as it is being described lately.

Before going on any further, I would like to ask you a question: is RLM 74 a green-grey or just a pure grey?

Now, going back to published color pictures, they definitely seem to show a pure grey in the early stages (as on Fw-190As or Me-110s for example), while at the later stages of the war some examples of what is identified as RLM-74 appear to have a green tint to it (as on late war Fw-190Ds).

Pictures (again, for what they are worth) seem to indicate a change of hue for RLM-74 then, from pure grey to what seems a darker or greener color, but that is not always the case as some late war color pictures seem to show a plain grey RLM 74.

I wonder myself if the green-grey RLM-74, as it generally tends to be described as of late, is not some other color incorrectly thought to be RLM-74? Could it be that some late-war green is mistakenly believed to be an example of RLM 74?

Also, I have had a look at RLM-farben.de but, again, as my german is not that good, I have not found any real useful information. Could you point us directly to the highlights of the site regarding the subject we are dealing with?

I am also ecstatic to see the Me-110 restored in Germany. I must confess I didn't know about it! Are there any sites where pictures of the restoration can be seen, or where more pics of it can be found?

As I have stated, I am no expert or top researcher on Luftwaffe matters. I just would like to understand why RLM-74 is as of late being described as a grey-green.

And I dare include a couple of pictures I hurriedly found on the next in which the RLM74 looks grey to me:

Hope you can add some additional comments to help with the subject.

Yours truly,

Jorge.

Edited January 17, 2010 by f4h1phantom

[agboak]

mhorina: please read my posting #10 above. I was also rather surprised by the modern tendency to present mid-war Luftwaffe fighters in what appears to be RAF camouflage. After some enquiries I managed to get a description of the colour from Luftwaffe colour researcher K Merrick. It is dark grey, with only a very faint tinge of green which can only be seen on very close inspection. He has since had produced colour chips from the original paint company records, and these are in his two books from Classic. If you don't have these, I can strongly recommend them.

I think the problem comes from the use of the term Green Grey to describe the colour. Such names are unofficial, and I don't know where this usage came from. I think it provides a misleading impression: RAF bombers were painted in a colour called Night, which contained ultramarine pigment, but no-one calls it Black Blue,or produced profiles with the undersides in royal blue.

74 was one of the earliest colours discontinued, so I'd be a little surprised to discover that a greener version was produced, but in the field of Luftwaffe colours there's always some room for surprise.

[GGoheen]

One interesting note is that Ullmann has published a copy of a German document in which RLM 74 is listed as Dunkelgrau grünlich. This is quite interesting as I've seen RLM 74 marketed from several manufacturers as simply Dunkelgrau which translates to Dark Gray. However, the addition of grünlich is quite fascinating in that this translates as greenish. Therefore we don't simply have Dark Gray, as I had taken to be the final word of this particular shade but rather Dark Gray Greenish. Hmmmmmmm.....now what? Who said Luftwaffe colours weren't fun to debate?

Greg

[Helidriver]

Wow. I guess there is no easy answer to this one, but I am overwhelmed and impressed with the response. Got to love ARC.

I have purchased the MR. Color RLM 74, but after short research found out that I also needed Mr. Thinner for this one.

Anyone have any big issues with spraying this color, or is it easy once its thinned with Mr. Thinner??

Thanks again

Ken

[GGoheen]

Indeed Ken, there is always much to subjects like Luftwaffe paint. :lol:

Glad to hear you picked up some Gunze Mr. Color paint too, as actually this lacquer version of RLM 74 is even more accurate than their Mr. Hobby aqueous version. I just thin mine with hardware store lacquer thinner but know others here use Mr. Thinner and sometimes a bit of Retarder as well. You'll just have to play around with the ratios a bit, depending on your conditions, to find what works best for you and also avoids spraying those dreaded spider webs.

Greg

[johnsan]

GSI lacquers will thin with lacquer thinner, but they really do perform better (smoother finish, better spraying) using GSI's Leveling Thinner. I only use generic lacquer thinner to clean the airbrush.

[pbhawkin]

Helldriver,

Have a look at my comparison chart of the various RLM colour chips (taken from Merricks Vol 2) as well as some hobby paint equivelents such as Model Master, Tamiya, Humbrol and the hard to find but BEST match JPS paints.

The reason I say they are the best match is because they were made by the same guy who did the Merrick colour paint chips, Jürgen Kiroff, (and these are recognised as being the best/closest to the real thing)!

you can download the chart here:

http://www.petersplanes.com/links.htm (second one down).

or here:

http://www.aeroscale.co.uk/modules.php?op=...&artid=2898

There is also a excel sheet of suggestions for various paints to match RLM colours (and others too).

In my reading there has been no reference to more than one RLM 74 colour. There are variations in a number of other colours such as RLM 79, RLM 83 and RLM 65.

Edited January 21, 2010 by pbhawkin

[bergr]

The Official Monogram Guide To German Aircraft 1935-1945 by Kenneth A. Merrick & Thomas H. Hitchcock the color swatches for 74 on pages 25 and 35 are called out as Graugrun Gray-Green. In Lufftwaffe Colours 1935-1945 by Michael Ullman on page 188 (1st Edition) says Luftwaffe Regulation Sheet No 1 of 5 January 1942 describes the serious position regarding chrome and recommends that both the Army and Luftwaffe should make the most sparing use of chrome. RLM shades will be withdrawn in future 65,70, 71 and 74. A preponderant majority of the colours listed were green or included a large green proportion.

I never quoted anyone this is just my humble opinion of what I read and how I applied it to so many of the variables in Lufftwaffe camoflage. Maybe the various model paint companies are also confused or maybe they know more.Find the guy who painted the aircraft in the 1935 - 1945 period I'm sure he'd know more. I have nothing more to say in this matter.

I'm very sorry if I've posted any comments here which have angered you.

May be I was to rough, very sorry.

My English is not well.

I can not comment these books. I have not. I have read in a german forum, that the English book differs from the German.

I have thought, you have a "Orginalquelle" ( original source from 1940`er). I have misunderstood this.

Generally it is very hard to describe a color. Everyone can see a different shade.

I want to see this Luftwaffe Regulation Sheet No 1 of 5 January 1942 .

If Ullman is right, then for january in 1942. But later? All 80`er paints have a green shade. The late 76 is greenish too, because chromeoxyd was added. To make a green color you need chromeoxyd.

If you can find this http://www.amazon.de/Luftwaffe-Camouflage-...6524&sr=8-3 book you can get a color table wich is made by Jürgen Kiroff by orginal formulary of RLM ( ...% of chromeoxyd, ...% of ...). Then you have a choice...

Edited January 21, 2010 by bergr

[Antonio Argudo]

I would like to revive this thread  10 years later, I have some interesting pictures of RLM 74 examples.

first is an original  Farbtonkarte issued in 1941 although 1938 is written in the chart, the  74/75/76  colors are the only ones that have no name, only number,  also I acquired some wooden relic  pieces from a 109g10  with 74/75/76 camo colors very well preserved, after  trying different mixes and paint brands, I found  that Tamiya XF-63 to be a very close match to RLM 74, funny the tamiya name is german grey, hope it is interesting to someone, cheers

 

 

Tamiya XF-63 is a great match to RLM 74

 

here some bf110 relic which shows RLM74 

 

 

bf109 cowling and ruder relics with RLM74 

 

 

I painted my 1/32 109 in these colors 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Antonio Argudo

[Antonio Argudo]

I 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Antonio Argudo