Mk. Vb Spitfire in different camo scheme?

[gotarheelz14]

I am no expert on spitfire markings and colors. I do however have noticed that almost all kits of the Mk. Vb come with the gray and green camo scheme. I actually want to make mine in the Dark Earth, Dark Green and Sky markings. Kind of like all the early spitfires had.

I am not an expert on spitfires and I have managed to find some pictures of Vb's in this camo scheme but just to make sure, is this historically accurate? Were they ever dressed in this camo scheme?

Thank you,

Carlos

[Tim Prosser]

The simple answer, Carlos, is yes, they were. Are the pictures you've seen of a photographic nature or coloured profile drawings?

[gotarheelz14]

Thanks Tim,

They are actually just colored profile drawings from decal makers. I was actually just thinking that I can probably go to the library here at school and pick up a book on spitfires, I am sure they will have one. I will just go off of pictures since I doubt they will have a story of camo schemes specifically for the modeler.

Carlos

[greatgonzo]

The answer is not simple any more, when it comes to connecting specific A/C with Temperate Land Scheme. Usually there is a lot of doubt present, which, as a matter of fact, is really something in this case. I've only met two cases like that, being 318th Sqn MkV Spitfires operating from Italy and one 315th Sqn frame in England. Modellers have been fighting over them since years. Must be more - I do refer only to Polish AF units.

I surely have seen profiles showing MkVs with Dark Earth on them beeing just a product of authors imagination. Man got to be careful there.

Good luck!

[Stona]

If the first Vs went to squadrons in March ('41) and the DFS was officially adopted in August ('41) then surely it must be possible. I'm no Spitfire buff but I reckon five months is plenty of time.

Steve

[Tim Prosser]

Sorry I disappeared for a while Carlos. I've been trying to find examples of Mk Vb Spitfires in the Dark Green/Dark Earth/ Sky colours (otherwise known as the Temperate Land Scheme) for you. I'm afraid all my reference material is in disarray at present, but I've dug these out, at least.

Possibly one of the more well-known examples is this one...and yes, I know it's only an artist's impression. I've never seen a photograph of this particular aircraft.

This is the only photograph I can find at the moment. I can probably find others, but not tonight.

Not much, I know, but it's a start!

Cheers,

Tim.

[gotarheelz14]

Wow Tim,

Thank you so much for your help and inisight!

I actually prefer the "Temperate Land Scheme" as you guys have pointed out. Anytime I think about spitfires I think about the Battle of Brittain and any time I think about that I think of this camo scheme in particular. If I can accurately portray a Vb. In that camo scheme I will kill two birds with one stone even though my little research into the topic leads me to believe that Vbs were not around during the battle due to obvious chronological production of the planes.

Thanks so much. I will try to go to the library today in my sparte time and see if I can rent out this book my library has called "Portrait of a Spitfire"

Edited January 20, 2010 by gotarheelz14

[Edgar]

This photo was taken by Charles E. Brown, in May, 1942, and has led to some real head-scratching, even misprinting in some publications. For some reason the green and brown appear to have been swapped over, but, just to confuse matters even more, the ailerons (metal, presumably) appear to be green/grey, as is the (replacement?) starboard wingtip. The top cowling (and, possibly, the [msg or sky?] bottom) appears to have had grey paint added, as well. I was told, years ago, that a useful "rule of thumb" is that an early-style fuselage roundel is indicative of a green/brown airframe, but you can't take that as gospel.

Edgar

Edited January 20, 2010 by Edgar

[greatgonzo]

Possibly one of the more well-known examples is this one...and yes, I know it's only an artist's impression. I've never seen a photograph of this particular aircraft.

In June Polish squadrons used MkII Spits. It is one of those controvertial images. This frame came to 308 sqn on August 5th and John Kent, posted to Kenley wing, claimed his first kill there on 7th, the very same month. 308th started the operations with new aircrafts on 5th September. Somehow it is hard to fit in this very interesting vision.

I see no reason though, why shouldn't she fly in Temperate Land rock in 452 sqn, where she served before.

[Tim Prosser]

This photo was taken by Charles E. Brown, in May, 1942, and has led to some real head-scratching, even misprinting in some publications. For some reason the green and brown appear to have been swapped over, but, just to confuse matters even more, the ailerons (metal, presumably) appear to be green/grey, as is the (replacement?) starboard wingtip. The top cowling (and, possibly, the [msg or sky?] bottom) appears to have had grey paint added, as well. I was told, years ago, that a useful "rule of thumb" is that an early-style fuselage roundel is indicative of a green/brown airframe, but you can't take that as gospel.

Edgar

Sorry Edgar, but I honestly cannot fathom why everyone else in the world insists that this aircraft is wearing Dark Green and DARK EARTH! It seems to me to be Dark Green (where it should be) and various shades of MIXED GREY and possibly Ocean Grey. That would indicate that it was indeed originally painted in the Temperate Land Scheme, but re-painted to conform to the new Day Fighter Scheme. It's well known that the Mixed Grey was approved for use as a stop-gap measure pending sufficient supplies of the Ocean Grey, and that the mixing of it (by squadron personnel) was notoriously inexact. This aircraft has seen a lot of use, its makeshift Mixed Grey areas not wearing particularly well and being subjected to much touching up...presumably with yet more inexact attempts at Mixed Grey and/or Ocean Grey. I see no evidence of the Dark Earth it would have left the factory in, although I'm sure it's still there beneath the Mixed Grey. If I really am wrong on this, then I'm also wrong in seeing Medium Sea Grey on the underside of the nose (painted over the original Sky).

Any further thoughts?

Tim.

[Chuck1945]

I dont have Photoshop, but what happens if you adjust the color balance so the spinner, codes and fuselage band appear Sky instead the almost white I am seeing?

Tim:

I 'see' Dark Earth under the exhausts, below the cockpit, rear fuselage, and on starboard wing (along with some grey)

[f4h1phantom]

Any further thoughts?

Tim.

I seem to remember there was a thread in Britmodeller where a couple of different scans or copies of that picture were shown and which I am reproducing below.

The first one is totally red-saturated and has the effect of making the green look brown and the grey look somewhat like a green (!). Hence the "reversed" colors mentioned by Edgar above.

Then somebody came up with a much better picture where the colors are a green and a grey:

I further removed a little red from that picture and looks even better to me now:

My take with that picture. First of all, all cowlings and the ailerons appear to come from another aircraft, and possibly the right wing tip also. Those parts appeear to be in the regular RAF colors of Dark Green and Ocen Grey. Now as for the rest of the airfame, and I am ready to take all the ensuing Flak from this statement, the colors remind me of those used by the Fleet Air Arm, namely Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey! The grey is definitely darker than Ocean Grey and the green doesn't seem to be the same one as that on the cowling, and having faded much more than what Dark Green is usually left to fade before being repainted.

I may be taking things to the extreme and how FAA colors would end up in a RAF airplane is totally beyond me, but the picture certainly reminds me of the one below, especially regarding the Corsair and the aircraft in the background (the plane at the bottom looks like a Spitfire V in extremely faded Dark Green / Ocean Grey colors (?)):

Probably my silliest post ever, as I think I forgot to take my pill today, but that's what I'd like to contribute to add to the general confusion.

All the best,

Jorge.

Edited January 21, 2010 by f4h1phantom

[Tim Prosser]

Thanks Jorge! Yes, I was aware that there were other views taken by Charles Brown on the same photo session and it's good to see this one reproduced so beautifully. The approved mix for the so-called 'Mixed Grey' was seven parts Medium Sea Grey to one part Night, which naturally (logically, really!) produced a shade quite similar to Dark Sea Grey. It came into use on the squadrons, on the Maintenance Units and, apparently, on the production lines on 16th August, 1941, and persisted until well into 1942, when supplies of the correct Ocean Grey became more reliable and it was dropped. Surprisingly, it apparently was reinstated as an Ocean Grey substitute on 2nd October, 1943, presumably to address further supply problems with the Ocean Grey. This information comes from the Ducimus publication 'Camouflage & Markings, Supermarine Spitfire, RAF Northern Europe 1936-45', but the situation was not, of course, limited to Spitfires only. Photographic evidence, that I've noted, shows it also affecting Hurricanes, Whirlwinds and Mustangs. I suspect that it may also have been seen on a few Typhoons.

This photograph of 303 Sqn Mk Vb Spitfires (apologies for the crappy reproduction), which can only have been taken after 21st May, 1942, as evidenced by the Type C.1. fuselage roundels and fin flashes, shows (I believe) examples of both Mixed Grey and Ocean Grey...

Your reproduction of the Charles Brown photograph illustrates further that this was a well-used aircraft subjected to touch-ups and even a few replacement parts. However, I fear that we're not really helping Carlos in his quest for Mk Vb Spitfires in the Temperate Land Scheme...sorry Carlos!

Anyone else able to come up with anything?

[f4h1phantom]

Ahhh! The mixed grey! I had forgotten about it as I don't think I've ever come across a picture of an aircraft painted like that (or failed to notice it!). That is more plausible than my silly theory but, hey, posting is free! :)

As for the picture you are providing, I am unable to see the differences you mention, but that is just because the pic isn't really of the best quality. As for the C1 roundels, I am not that sure. An enlargement of the first two aircraft would seem to indicate that they are of the A1 type, or perhaps an A1 type modified with a thinner yellow ring trying to comply with the new directive? But you may know better looking at the original. In any case, camouflage colors seem to be very dark, which would indicate the use of mixed grey. Very interesting picture though!

And as the picture of ZD·F showed up, I think it may at least help Carlos in letting him know that THAT aircraft was not painted DG/DB!

This thread is getting very interesting. Hope somebody chimes in with more information.

Cheers,

Jorge.

[Edgar]

Sorry Edgar, but I honestly cannot fathom why everyone else in the world insists that this aircraft is wearing Dark Green and DARK EARTH! It seems to me to be Dark Green (where it should be) and various shades of MIXED GREY and possibly Ocean Grey. That would indicate that it was indeed originally painted in the Temperate Land Scheme, but re-painted to conform to the new Day Fighter Scheme. It's well known that the Mixed Grey was approved for use as a stop-gap measure pending sufficient supplies of the Ocean Grey, and that the mixing of it (by squadron personnel) was notoriously inexact. This aircraft has seen a lot of use, its makeshift Mixed Grey areas not wearing particularly well and being subjected to much touching up...presumably with yet more inexact attempts at Mixed Grey and/or Ocean Grey. I see no evidence of the Dark Earth it would have left the factory in, although I'm sure it's still there beneath the Mixed Grey. If I really am wrong on this, then I'm also wrong in seeing Medium Sea Grey on the underside of the nose (painted over the original Sky).

Any further thoughts?

Tim.

Not really very much, only that I have a slightly unfair advantage, since I've been able to look at the original, which is held in the RAF Museum, and it exhibits no grey on the main areas (and it's a slide, processed by Kodak in America, so it's safe to that there was no Photoshop "fiddling" involved in 1942.) One other small point; the photograph was taken, as I said, in May, 1942 (5th., to be precise,) and the A.M.O., ordering the new colour scheme, for day fighters, wasn't issued until July 2nd., 1942. If anyone has a logical explanation as to how an airframe was repainted, and received heavy wear & tear on said scheme, almost two full months before it was supposed to be repainted, I'll be very interested to hear it. Incidentally, the same A.M.O. (A.664/42) did also include the new fuselage roundel size of 12"/16"/32"/36", plus the different fin flash, so logic dictates that AD233 should be sporting those, as well as the green/grey scheme.

Edgar

One other item, which I'd forgotten; Supermarine issued a modification (no.646) to take account of the new colour scheme, and put it into effect from 16-7-42, so they certainly didn't paint AD233 green/grey.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Edgar

[gotarheelz14]

Wow,

You guys are absolutely amazing with the research. Far more stuff than I could have ever hoped. And don't you guys worry if you are not exactly answering my question. I don't even care.

I am having wayyyyy too much fun seeing all this stuff unfold

[Tim Prosser]

Not really very much, only that I have a slightly unfair advantage, since I've been able to look at the original, which is held in the RAF Museum, and it exhibits no grey on the main areas (and it's a slide, processed by Kodak in America, so it's safe to that there was no Photoshop "fiddling" involved in 1942.) One other small point; the photograph was taken, as I said, in May, 1942 (5th., to be precise,) and the A.M.O., ordering the new colour scheme, for day fighters, wasn't issued until July 2nd., 1942. If anyone has a logical explanation as to how an airframe was repainted, and received heavy wear & tear on said scheme, almost two full months before it was supposed to be repainted, I'll be very interested to hear it. Incidentally, the same A.M.O. (A.664/42) did also include the new fuselage roundel size of 12"/16"/32"/36", plus the different fin flash, so logic dictates that AD233 should be sporting those, as well as the green/grey scheme.

Edgar

One other item, which I'd forgotten; Supermarine issued a modification (no.646) to take account of the new colour scheme, and put it into effect from 16-7-42, so they certainly didn't paint AD233 green/grey.

Hmm...well, now you've really got me scratching my head, Edgar!

I've also seen the entire Charles Brown collection (or all that survives of it) at Hendon. I was already familiar with this particular aircraft from the large and beautifully sharp Plaistowe-published poster I had of it in 1972 and would have been most surprised to see it featuring Dark Earth in the photographs held by the RAF Museum. In those photographs, however, it appeared much the same as we're seeing it here (or, at least, as I'M seeing it and always have done!). Now, also, you're saying that the Day Fighter Scheme was ordered on July 2nd, 1942, NOT on August 15th, 1941, with Supermarine amending their drawings the following day, the 16th. There would seem to be something badly amiss here because your July '42 date conflicts with numerous photographs of various types of fighter aircraft wearing the new colours and purportedly to have been taken during the preceding 11 months.

Further to that, the change to the camouflage colours was decided upon in the light of operational experience gained since Fighter Command switched to its offensive role over the continent very early in 1941. It seems logical that it may have taken some time for conclusions to be drawn about the unsuitability of the existing scheme, subsequent experimental trials to be conducted, and an eventual decision to be made by August. To take until JULY of the following year? No, that doesn't seem logical at all! Your quoted AMO, therefore, is something of a mystery.

As I'm sure you know, I hold your counsel in the utmost esteem, but on this occasion, I'm afraid, I have to admit doubt.

All the same, best wishes as always,

Tim.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Tim Prosser

[Edgar]

When the RAF Museum published their book, on camouflage, in 1976, they said that they'd included all of the relevant Air Ministry Orders. Just to make certain, I've been through the files of orders, in the National Archive at Kew, and the museum are quite correct. There are hundreds of those orders, which go into the absolute minutiae (e.g. decreeing how many pairs of knickers were to be issued to W.R.A.F. personnel,) and AMO A.513/41, dated July, 1941, still advocated the green/brown/sky scheme. Apart from a small amendment, in wording only, in A.687/41, the next major order is A.664/42, which has a footnote, saying that it cancels A.513/41 & A.687/41. If the Air Ministry ordered the green/grey scheme in 1941, I can't find it.

Edgar

[Tim Prosser]

Ahhh! The mixed grey! I had forgotten about it as I don't think I've ever come across a picture of an aircraft painted like that (or failed to notice it!). That is more plausible than my silly theory but, hey, posting is free! :lol:

As for the picture you are providing, I am unable to see the differences you mention, but that is just because the pic isn't really of the best quality. As for the C1 roundels, I am not that sure. An enlargement of the first two aircraft would seem to indicate that they are of the A1 type, or perhaps an A1 type modified with a thinner yellow ring trying to comply with the new directive? But you may know better looking at the original. In any case, camouflage colors seem to be very dark, which would indicate the use of mixed grey. Very interesting picture though!

And as the picture of ZD·F showed up, I think it may at least help Carlos in letting him know that THAT aircraft was not painted DG/DB!

This thread is getting very interesting. Hope somebody chimes in with more information.

Cheers,

Jorge.

It's a shame about the reproduction via the scanning process, Jorge, and the fact that it comes from a page removed from a long-forgotten magazine doesn't help much either. I assure you, though, that they are C.1. roundels and fin flashes. The apparently large white rings are purely a phenomenon of distance from the camera combined with their brilliance in contrast to the surrounding colours. It's been degraded yet again by scanning and your subsequent enlargement, but on RF-Q in the foreground, the markings are much better discernible as Type C.1. Also, in the copy I have here in my hand, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and possibly the 7th aircraft from the left have lighter grey in their camouflage, hence my supposition that these are examples of Ocean Grey. It would be nice to see a really GOOD reproduction of this photograph. Anybody have one or know where it can be found?

EDIT: I've come across some photographs I took of the Imperial War Museum's Spifire Mk I, R6915 (a genuine Battle of Britain participant), which I haven't scanned or put into the Photobucket yet. It's displayed in the colours and markings worn during its later service (which have never been altered since that service), and the grey is a lot darker than Ocean Grey. Is it possible that this aircraft exhibits a perfect, original example of 'Mixed Grey'? I shall do the necessary and post them for perusal!

2nd EDIT: Done...

Edited January 22, 2010 by Tim Prosser

[Tim Prosser]

Also photographed by Charles Brown on May 4th (5th?), 1942: Spitfire Mk Vb BM202/ZD-H. 222 Sqn. Dark Green/Ocean Grey/Medium Sea Grey.

Photographed October 1941: 601 Sqn Airacobra. Dark Green/Ocean Grey/Medium Sea Grey.

And, photographed by Charles Brown, July 24th, 1942: Mustang Mk I AG633. 2 Sqn. A beautiful example of Mixed Grey.

Now, if only we could find some nice colour photographs of Spitfires Mk Vb in Dark Green/Dark Earth/Sky for Carlos!

[GPaulC]

To return to the original question and approaching the problem from a different angle "Aces High" by Shores and Williams lists 'Sailor' Malan's mount while WC (flying) Biggin Hill Wing as a Spitfire V. Unfortunately they do not give details of number or whether it was a Va or Vb, but since he was Wing Commander from March until July 1941, prior to the introduction of Day Fighter Scheme it is surely safe to assume that his a/c and any other Vs flying with either the Biggin or Kenley Wings were in Temp Land Scheme.

[agboak]

Edgar: you are assuming that the AMO was the ONLY source of instructions for camouflage. This is not true. As Paul Lucas has pointed out many times in his articles and books, there were other sources.

1. Let's go back to basics: what does Bruce Robertson say in Harleyford? He says 21st Auguast 1941. This was promulgated in an instruction by Fighter Command and was carried out around this date, some squadrons (eg 402 RCAF) actually being grounded on this date for the change to be affected. BY the 31st pilots were reporting seeing Bf 109s "in our old camouflage".

2. Mike Bowyer's Fighting Colours. At Hawkers...July 24th... drawings produced showing the hitherto brown camouflage areas replaced by a shade called Ocean Grey. ...... Within the next four weeks the colour changes were reviewed, and finalised in the case of the Hurricane on 26th August. Fighter Command notified units that the change was to be made on August 21st 1941.

3. Paul Lucas's Britain Alone. On 11th August MAP wrote to the RAE that Dark Earth was to be replaced by a grey. On the 12th August Fighter Command passed to its Groups...(information regarding new colour scheme in green and greys). Signal A292 described the Mixed Grey. The change was to commence on 15th August, as supplies became available. On August 21st RAE presented 36 colour standards to the MAP and the colour was named Ocean Grey. .... Supermarine mod 428 dated 10th November 1941 Revised Camouflage Colour Scheme (replace Earth and Green).

Now who is the best source for Supermarine mods?

I could also have included the Ducimus booklets, but I think the point is made. My apologies for butchering everyone's immortal prose in the interest of brevity.

[Edgar]

I have learnt never to "assume" anything.

It's strange that Fighter Command told their charges about a new colour, but never told the Air Ministry, who, seven days after (28-8-41,) issued an AMO (A.687/41) which still advocated "Operational aircraft (other than night fighters) for service at home" should be in Temperate land scheme, with Duck-egg blue (Sky Type "S") under-surfaces, and this was not cancelled until July of the following year.

Bruce Robertson says that, though an instruction was issued, in 1941, about green/grey, it was not officially promulgated, by a general order, until July, 1942.

Spitfire amendment 426 (not a mod, or 428) only states "To revise camouflage colour scheme," and does not have the bracketed addition regarding actual colours. It will probably need a copy of the drawing of the camouflage pattern, to ascertain what 426 says.

Although Bowyer writes that the change occurred on July 1st., he gives no year, but it follows a paragraph, which commences "At the end of July, 1942....," so, if he did his work in chronological order, the July 1st reference should also be 1942.

James Goulding also says that the instruction, for the changeover, was that it should be gradually introduced, as and when it was convenient after 15-8-41. There seems to be potential, there, for dark earth to have stuck around for some time. AD233 dates from September, 1941, long before any Supermarine changes, while BM202 is March, 1942.

Edgar

Edited January 25, 2010 by Edgar

[afyeats]

Nice to see such a spirited discussion about my favourite airplane. I have 16 unbuilt (!) kits and at least 4 built models.

Currently I am converting a Hasegawa IXc to a PR XI thanks to Quick Boost. A BLUE Spitty when done. BTW......does anyone out there if there is a canopy conversion (non-armoured) for the PRU Spits? I am not looking forward to doing some smash forming of a windscreen & canopy for my model

[Edgar]

A friend of mine produced a sample P.R. canopy, about 15 years ago, designed for the Hasegawa Vb, and donated one to me. I'm never likely to use it, now. If you'd like it, PM an address, and I'll get it away. It will then be subjected to the tender mercies of our respective postal services, of course.

Edgar