Boeing F4B-4 vs P-12E

[Aaronw]

I don't seem to have any trouble finding the Monogram F4B-4 kit, but the Matchbox P-12E is far more elusive. Is there actually a difference between these two planes? Starfighter offers decals for both, so I'm wondering if I couldn't just buy the P-12 decals and put them on an F4B-4 kit?

Also did the Navy paint all of their F4B-4 with a grey fuselage? I just finished the Accurate Mini's version of the Monogram kit and misread the painting instructions so painted the fuselage silver as well as the wings. I didn't catch my mistake until the decals were on.

I can live with the mistake, and may even fix it with a new set of decals, but I'm hoping I just accidently painted it as an earlier / later scheme.

[Joe Hegedus]

I don't seem to have any trouble finding the Monogram F4B-4 kit, but the Matchbox P-12E is far more elusive. Is there actually a difference between these two planes? Starfighter offers decals for both, so I'm wondering if I couldn't just buy the P-12 decals and put them on an F4B-4 kit?

Also did the Navy paint all of their F4B-4 with a grey fuselage? I just finished the Accurate Mini's version of the Monogram kit and misread the painting instructions so painted the fuselage silver as well as the wings. I didn't catch my mistake until the decals were on.

I can live with the mistake, and may even fix it with a new set of decals, but I'm hoping I just accidently painted it as an earlier / later scheme.

The P-12E is closer to the F4B-3, IIRC. The P-12E has a smaller fin/rudder than the F4B-4, and I think the raised area behind the cockpit is larger on the F4B-4 too. And, of course, the F4B has a tailhook that the P-12E doesn't have. The Monogram F4B-4 is a great kit of what it is; same for the Matchbox P-12E. If nothing else, get the decals; the kits will turn up but the decals may not be available then!

[Aaronw]

Thanks I'll keep my eyes open for the Matchbox kits. I had a feeling there were at least a few differences, but I couldn't find anything positive one way or another.

Those Accurate Miniatures double kits have dried up too. I've been able to get a few of the Monogram F4B4 kits, an F11 Goshawk and the Matchbox Fury and Siskin, but the P-6, P-12, and P-26 are proving more difficult.

[Ranger74]

Hi,

The differences stated above are correct, The F4B-4 has a liferaft compartment behind the headrest necessitating a longer "bump" behind the cockpit. Carrier operations require more stability so the Navy wanted a larger tail/rudder.

As far as paint on Naval aircraft: prior to 1932 the metal surfaces of the fuselage were light gray while fabric surfaces were aluminum dope. After 1932 the entire fuselage was aluminum-paint on metal and dope on fabric. The F4B-4 crossed this timeframe, so depending if your scheme is post-1932, then it is correct.

I have the book with actual bureau directive at home.

Jeff

Edited January 25, 2010 by Ranger74

[Aaronw]

Hi,

The differences stated above are correct, The F4B-4 has a liferaft compartment behind the headrest necessitating a longer "bump" behind the cockpit. Carrier operations require more stability so the Navy wanted a larger tail/rudder.

As far as paint on Naval aircraft: prior to 1932 the metal surfaces of the fuselage were light gray while fabric surfaces were aluminum dope. After 1932 the entire fuselage was aluminum-paint on metal and dope on fabric. The F4B-4 crossed this timeframe, so depending if your scheme is post-1932, then it is correct.

I have the book with actual bureau directive at home.

Jeff

Thanks, close enough then. I'll be more careful reading the color call outs on the remaining F4B's.

[Old Man]

Regarding the different kits, Sir....

The Matchbox P-12E kit gives the upper wing dihedral, which is incorrect, and the piece for the motor is poor. On the other hand, the corrugation on the ailerons and tail surfaces very fine and actually in scale.

The best way to get a P-12E model is to blend the Matchbox and Monogram kits. Use the wings from the Monogram, replacing the ailerons with those from the Matchbox wing (and of course, sand off the flotation panels on the underside of the upper wing). Replace the Match-box motor and ring with the Monogram motor and ring. Otherwise, use Matchbox parts.

[Silverback]

Boeing P-12E

Note short-chord tail, extended "Panama" headrest, no arresting hook. Tail wheel could also have been a skid.

Boeing F4B-4

Note broad-chord tail, slightly smaller headrest, arresting hook, different arrangement of cowl louvres and vents.

A word of caution on using museum exhibits for reference (as in, with a grain of salt). F'rinstance, Planes of Fame's "Navy F4B-3" is actually and Army P-12E.

Here's a "real" F4B-3

Phil

[Aaronw]

Thanks for the additional info.

I also found out the Accurate Min decals and painting instructions are wrong, they provide the Felix the cat markings as in your photo but give a black band and chevron, then tell you to paint the cowl red. I have since found out the three should be the same and as far as I can tell should have been red. At this point I'm just chalking up the first kit as a learning experience. I've managed to pick up 3 or 4 more of the Monogram F4B kits I plan to use then with the Starfighter decals to offer some variety.

Oldman, I still haven't found a P-12E but thanks for the tip on the motor. I've heard the P-26 motor also lacks the detail of the F4B-4 kit so I've been thinking about casting the motor and cowl ring, this just gives me more incentive to do so. As far as I can tell the F4B, P-12 and P-26 all used the P&W R-1340 just with minor (and I'm assuming insignificant in 1/72) variations of it.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Aaronw

[Grey Ghost 531]

Olimp does a nice P-6E. It's one of their injection molded kits, not resin, so the price isn't so high. I believe they're still available.

[Aaronw]

Olimp does a nice P-6E. It's one of their injection molded kits, not resin, so the price isn't so high. I believe they're still available.

I have one, I used some of the "snow owl" decals to finish my Acc Min / Monogram P-6E. It is a nice kit I plan to build in the blue / yellow scheme. It is my only exposure to Olimp, but if their other kits are similar I'll be getting more, I've got my eye on one of their Curtis Jennys.

[centaur567]

Iam currently working on a ( beat it to fit and paint it to match)1/48th Classic Airframes F4B-4 kit. The box top shows a black fusalage band, cowl and wing cheveron and white tail. It has the Felix the cat on it from the Sarratoga. Ive seen the same markings on a plane in a museum with red instead of black. After looking at the B/W photo in Squadron there is a slight difference in tone between the band and the numbers. Does anybody know which is right? BTW I plan to paint the fusalage grey using RustOleum lt grey primmer thinned for airbrushing. Also what is the oil cooler under the nose supposed to look like?Gary

Edited May 11, 2010 by centaur567

[Joe Hegedus]

Iam currently working on a ( beat it to fit and paint it to match)1/48th Classic Airframes F4B-4 kit. The box top shows a black fusalage band, cowl and wing cheveron and white tail. It has the Felix the cat on it from the Sarratoga. Ive seen the same markings on a plane in a museum with red instead of black. After looking at the B/W photo in Squadron there is a slight difference in tone between the band and the numbers. Does anybody know which is right? BTW I plan to paint the fusalage grey using Crylon lt grey primmer thinned for airbrushing. Also what is the oil cooler under the nose supposed to look like?Gary

The fuselage band and cowl could be either, depending on what the side number is. 3-F-1 would have red, 3-F-10 would be black; the different color bands indicated what section in the squadron the airplane was (and, depending on specifically what was painted the airplanes position in the section). The tail color would be the same for either as it indicated squadron assignment to a particular carrier.

Section colors were:

Red (a/c 1, 2, 3)

White (a/c 4, 5, 6)

Blue (a/c 7, 8, 9)

Black (a/c 10, 11, 12)

Green (a/c 13, 14, 15)

Yellow (a/c 16, 17, 18)

The section leader (1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16) had a fuselage band and the entire circumference of the cowl painted. The right wing (2, 5, etc.) had the upper half of the cowl painted in the section color and no fuselage band, the left wing (3, 6, etc.) had the lower half of the cowl painted in the section color and no fuselage band. All aircraft had the wing chevrons in the section color.

Tail colors indicated carrier assignment as follows:

Lexington - yellow

Saragoga - white

Yorktown - red

Ranger - green

Enterprise - blue

Wasp - black

[centaur567]

Hi,

The differences stated above are correct, The F4B-4 has a liferaft compartment behind the headrest necessitating a longer "bump" behind the cockpit. Carrier operations require more stability so the Navy wanted a larger tail/rudder.

As far as paint on Naval aircraft: prior to 1932 the metal surfaces of the fuselage were light gray while fabric surfaces were aluminum dope. After 1932 the entire fuselage was aluminum-paint on metal and dope on fabric. The F4B-4 crossed this timeframe, so depending if your scheme is post-1932, then it is correct.

I have the book with actual bureau directive at home.

Jeff

What gives? See previous post in "FS color for lt gray". " Navy biplanes spent most of their service lives in the classic silver and "golden wings" livery with the colourful section markings and carrier code empennages typical of that period. They only changed to light grey or "neutrality grey" in late 1939 or 1940. As far as I know this was the same light grey as was later used in the early war blue-grey over light grey scheme that we know and love from Coral Sea and Midway. The FS equivalent listed in my references is 36440 which Lifecolour produce as UA025 Light Gull Grey (although I have never seen the scheme listed anywhere as blue-grey over light gull grey). " Gary

[centaur567]

The fuselage band and cowl could be either, depending on what the side number is. 3-F-1 would have red, 3-F-10 would be black; the different color bands indicated what section in the squadron the airplane was (and, depending on specifically what was painted the airplanes position in the section). The tail color would be the same for either as it indicated squadron assignment to a particular carrier.

Section colors were:

Red (a/c 1, 2, 3)

White (a/c 4, 5, 6)

Blue (a/c 7, 8, 9)

Black (a/c 10, 11, 12)

Green (a/c 13, 14, 15)

Yellow (a/c 16, 17, 18)

The section leader (1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16) had a fuselage band and the entire circumference of the cowl painted. The right wing (2, 5, etc.) had the upper half of the cowl painted in the section color and no fuselage band, the left wing (3, 6, etc.) had the lower half of the cowl painted in the section color and no fuselage band. All aircraft had the wing chevrons in the section color.

Tail colors indicated carrier assignment as follows:

Lexington - yellow

Saragoga - white

Yorktown - red

Ranger - green

Enterprise - blue

Wasp - black

Thanks for the info. I'll have to check the fusalage numbers. In the Squadron book they show an F4B-3 from the Sarratoga with a red tail and a top hat. Was that before a standard color for carriers or in the book wrong. Gary

[Joe Hegedus]

Thanks for the info. I'll have to check the fusalage numbers. In the Squadron book they show an F4B-3 from the Sarratoga with a red tail and a top hat. Was that before a standard color for carriers or in the book wrong. Gary

Could be from before the carrier tail colors were standardized; I'm not sure exactly when that occurred and I don't have any references handy right now. If you can get hold of them, there are a couple of useful pubs dealing with this. The Monogram US Navy and Marine Corps colors and markings, Vol I, is IMO the best, but there was also a softbound, portrait-format book from Squadron that covered this info also.

[Spruemeister]

Using the Monogram Guide for Navy and Marine Corp Colors:

About January 1931 the folowing tail colors were assigned:

Lexington- blue and yellow

Saratoga- red and white

Langley- green

Then about October 1935 the colors assigned were:

Lexington- Lemon Yellow

Saratoga- white

Ranger- Willow Green

Yorktown- True Blue

Enterprise- Black

And then March 1937:

Lexington- Lemon Yellow

Saratoga- Insignia white

Ranger- Willow Green

Yorktown- Insignia Red

Enterprise- True Blue

Wasp- Black

Rick L.

[Joe Hegedus]

Thanks, Rick!

[centaur567]

That certainly clears things up. Thanks Gary

[Silverback]

What gives? See previous post in "FS color for lt gray". " Navy biplanes spent most of their service lives in the classic silver and "golden wings" livery with the colourful section markings and carrier code empennages typical of that period.

Gary

When the Navy started using aircraft with exposed metal panels, it was found that existing "silver" paints did not adhere well to aluminum, so those panels were painted in a gray enamel that approximated the tone/hue of the silver-doped fabric panels. Sometime around 1936, or so, the coatings industry finally produced a silver paint for metal that could stand-up to the harsh environment of sea-level operations. Existing stocks of the older gray paint continued to be used, however, right up to the 1939 change to camouflage paint schemes.

A pretty good "rule-of-thumb" for aircraft interiors of the era is that the interior was painted in whatever paint the exterior metal panels were painted. So, say, an F4B-4 would probably be gray (inside and out), while an F3F-3 would probably be silver lacquer.

Phil

[Aaronw]

What gives? See previous post in "FS color for lt gray". " Navy biplanes spent most of their service lives in the classic silver and "golden wings" livery with the colourful section markings and carrier code empennages typical of that period. They only changed to light grey or "neutrality grey" in late 1939 or 1940. As far as I know this was the same light grey as was later used in the early war blue-grey over light grey scheme that we know and love from Coral Sea and Midway. The FS equivalent listed in my references is 36440 which Lifecolour produce as UA025 Light Gull Grey (although I have never seen the scheme listed anywhere as blue-grey over light gull grey). " Gary

From what I've been able to find, the Navy actually made a couple of changes in paint schemes between WW1 and WW2. Early on that used a blue fuselage with yellow wings, this was also used by the USCG until the early 1930s. Then there is the silver & grey with yellow wings, and by the beginning of WW2 it was a silver and yellow wings scheme. I don't know hard dates for these changes, but the silver, grey and yellow was definitely by the late 20s, the F3F2 was introduced in 1937 and it was painted in the silver and yellow scheme (no grey fuselage).