F-4 Phantom pylon question

[oortiz10]

OK ARCers,

I need some help with Phantom pylons. I know the difference between the USN & USAF inboard pylons (curved vs straight), but my question's about the outboard pylons.

I've been trying to track down True Details' resin pylon set, but I can't find the USAF set, only the USN set. What I need is the outboard pylons to use on a -C Phantom. Are the outboard pylons the same on both USAF & USN jets? Is there a difference between the outboard pylons that carried ordnance and those that carried fuel tanks? Could I just remove the molded-on wing tanks and use the pylons to hang ordnance?

Thanks!

-O

[yardbird78]

IIRC, the outboard fuel tanks had their own pylons permanently attached to the tank. There would have to be a separate,(and probably differently shaped), pylon for hanging ordnance out there.

Darwin

[Fishwelding]

Isracast also sells outboard armament pylons (#48005), but I do not know if the Israelis use different pylons than US services. If it is determined that US F-4s use these same pylons, then then this would be another procurement option for you.

[Jennings]

I don't think the pylons were shaped differently. At least not grossly different anyway. IIRC don't the Hasegawa Phantoms come with empty outboard pylons? I know some kit I have does...

J

[oortiz10]

Isracast also sells outboard armament pylons (#48005), but I do not know if the Israelis use different pylons than US services. If it is determined that US F-4s use these same pylons, then then this would be another procurement option for you.

Hey fish, yeah, I saw those on Squadron's site, but they're close to three times the TD set. I don't know if I want to spend that kind of money. Maybe I'll wait around for the TD set to pop up somewhere. Although, a set of Isracast parts in the hand is worth three TDs in a bush...know what I mean?

I don't think the pylons were shaped differently. At least not grossly different anyway. IIRC don't the Hasegawa Phantoms come with empty outboard pylons? I know some kit I have does...

J

You know J, I was thinking of cutting off the tanks and using the pylons anyway. Who would really notice, except the hardest of the hard core.

I don't think the Hase Phantoms have an extra set of outboard pylons. I'm currently working on one and took a quick look at the sprues. Didn't see one, but then I really wasn't looking too hard. If you have an extra set of USAF outboards, what would it take for you to part with 'em?

Thanks ARCers!

-O

[PlasticWeapons]

The Hasegawa 1/48 Phantoms should have empty outboard pylons included in the kit. Not only outboard but a centerline pylon as well.

[silverkite211]

The Hasegawa 1/48 Phantoms should have empty outboard pylons included in the kit. Not only outboard but a centerline pylon as well.

Those are Navy style pylons, however they are easily modified to Air Force style pylons by simply removing the bottom of the pylon up to the scribed panel line, Air Force style outboard pylons were flat across the bottom. However you'll need to attach a bomb, MER or TER to the pylon, I don't think that I've ever seen a photograph of an Air Force F-4 configured with empty outboard pylons the way that the Navy would do, at least during the Vietnam War. The Navy found that they could put a little more G on the airframe by using just a centerline tank, instead of the wing tanks, I wonder if it save stress on the wings by not having the wing tanks on during a cycle of lots of deck landings. And, if you had one wing tank feed better than the other (or not at all), you wouldn't have an aircraft giving the pilot roll trim problems while trying to come back aboard the carrier. Maybe, I'm just guessing about that last part.

[oortiz10]

"Those are Navy style pylons, however they are easily modified to Air Force style pylons by simply removing the bottom of the pylon up to the scribed panel line, Air Force style outboard pylons were flat across the bottom"

Well, whaddaya know, there are empty outboard pylons in the Hase boxing. I didn't even notice 'em. silverkite, thanks for the heads up. I see the panel line you're talking about. If it's as easy as flattening the pylon up to that line, then I'm golden!

Thanks for the input everyone. All I gotta do is throw these pylons in the spares box so I'll have 'em for the -C build.

Thanks again!

-O

[Joe Hegedus]

Well, whaddaya know, there are empty outboard pylons in the Hase boxing. I didn't even notice 'em. silverkite, thanks for the heads up. I see the panel line you're talking about. If it's as easy as flattening the pylon up to that line, then I'm golden!

Thanks for the input everyone. All I gotta do is throw these pylons in the spares box so I'll have 'em for the -C build.

Thanks again!

-O

Actually, I believe that the 1/48 Hase Phantoms have BOTH types of tankless outboard pylons. Look on the sprues with the tanks; the AF style are at the opposite end as the Navy style.

[icekj]

I don't suppose anyone made the outboard pylons without tanks in 1/72?

A F-4G with 4 HARMs hanging off it looks awesome.

God Bless,

Ken

[Rex]

sure do Ken

all the Fujimi's except the British versions have empty outerwing and centerline pylons in the kits

the Testors (and now Tamiya) have the outerwing pylons and tanks separate,,,,,,also the very old Hasegawa E kits

hth

Rex

I don't suppose anyone made the outboard pylons without tanks in 1/72?

A F-4G with 4 HARMs hanging off it looks awesome.

God Bless,

Ken

[icekj]

Rex,

That sure does help.

Thanks for the info!

God Bless,

Ken

[Gene K]

here are links to a couple of many F-4 pylon threads (this is a recurring subject) where we hashed out the subject:

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....30&hl=pylon

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....27&hl=pylon

Gene K

[oortiz10]

Gene,

Thanks for that. That was a HUGE help. Now I just gotta find (or make) some adapters to hang TERs from those pylons.

-O

[PlasticWeapons]

Awesome Gene K., for finding my thread. Couldn't find it myself! Doh! Sadly, I have yet to finish the Phantom I've been working on! LOL.

Edited February 15, 2010 by PlasticWeapons

[scotthldr]

I have the True Details pylons (USAF style) if anyone needs them although just the outboard and centreline only. I have used the inboard ones.

PM me if interested.

Scott

[Ruud]

So the AF style outer pylons angle out regardless of payload while the USN type are at 90 degrees?

Do the RN/RAF F-4's use the USN style outer pylons?

[Joe Hegedus]

So the AF style outer pylons angle out regardless of payload while the USN type are at 90 degrees?

Do the RN/RAF F-4's use the USN style outer pylons?

The outer pylons hang vertially with tanks, AFAIK, while the ordnance pylons are angled out for clearance of inboard bombs on MER or TER. I don't think it makes a difference for the various services, as the pylons are the same size and in the same location, and a MER is a MER is a MER, just as a MK-82 is a MK-82.

The RN jets were based on the USN F-4J, and would use the Navy style pylons AFAIK.

[Gene K]

Now I just gotta find (or make) some adapters to hang TERs from those pylons.

I'm a little confused -- you originally said you were looking for pylons for a C model. If so, you don't need adapters since those are/were built into the USAF pylons. Now if you're doing an early C that carried the Navy pylons (as shown in this thread in post #9 - http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....57&hl=pylon ), then you do need the adapters.

Gene K

[oortiz10]

Gene,

I guess I'll 'splain and make it as clear as I can. My goal is to build a -C Phantom and hang TERs from the in- and outboard pylons. I was able to dig some USAF style outboards from the Hase -B/N that I'm currently working on. The -C project is down the road, I'm just trying to stock the parts box with everything I need before I start.

From looking at the pics and diagrams on the posts you shared, it looked to my uneducated eye that in order to hang TERs from the in- and outboard pylons, an adapter is necessary. I did notice that the diagrams were for NAVAIR ops. Since my build (with the multiple TERs) will be a USAF jet, would I need adapters to hang TERs from the inboard and outboard pylons? Or did the TERs mount directly to the in-outboard pylons on USAF Phantoms?

-O

[Joe Hegedus]

Gene,

I guess I'll 'splain and make it as clear as I can. My goal is to build a -C Phantom and hang TERs from the in- and outboard pylons. I was able to dig some USAF style outboards from the Hase -B/N that I'm currently working on. The -C project is down the road, I'm just trying to stock the parts box with everything I need before I start.

From looking at the pics and diagrams on the posts you shared, it looked to my uneducated eye that in order to hang TERs from the in- and outboard pylons, an adapter is necessary. I did notice that the diagrams were for NAVAIR ops. Since my build (with the multiple TERs) will be a USAF jet, would I need adapters to hang TERs from the inboard and outboard pylons? Or did the TERs mount directly to the in-outboard pylons on USAF Phantoms?

-O

AF pylons had a bomb rack built into the pylon; the Navy inboard pylons had a missile rail for the AIM-7 built into the pylon. To hang bombs from a Navy inboard pylon, an adapter was required as was a TER, which bolted to the adapter. So, for AF Phantoms (except the VERY early C models that used Navy pylons), no adapter is required on the pylon to mount a TER.

[Fishwelding]

In a mostly unrelated question: How long did the SUU-23 gun pod remain in service? Would this be appropriate for a 1980s "D," or did they phase out the pods before the last of the gunless fighter phantoms?

[Julien (UK)]

In a mostly unrelated question: How long did the SUU-23 gun pod remain in service? Would this be appropriate for a 1980s "D," or did they phase out the pods before the last of the gunless fighter phantoms?

I have a pic of a Minesotta ANG phantom with a gun pod, taken in Germany in the 80's. They pulled QRA there while the USAF were converting from F-4's.

Julien

Edited February 17, 2010 by Julien (UK)

[Gene K]

My goal is to build a -C Phantom and hang TERs from the in- and outboard pylons....From looking at the pics and diagrams on the posts you shared, it looked to my uneducated eye that in order to hang TERs from the in- and outboard pylons, an adapter is necessary. ..., would I need adapters to hang TERs from the inboard and outboard pylons?

To reiterate: for Air Force pylons, you DO NOT need adapters for the TERs to be hung on the inboards, or the MERs to be hung on the outboards - the bomb racks are built into the pylons. The AF outboard pylon is shown in post 10 here (to contrast, the Navy outboard and adapter is shown in post 10 here).

I'll scan some pages for you from the Air Force F-4C Weapons Delivery Manual tomorrow showing the inboard and outboard pylons and suspension equipment. I'll also post the note that says you can hang MERs on the Centerline Station, TERs on the inboard pylons, and MERs on the outboards (the Navy regularly carried TERs on the outboards, the AF didn't).

When you decide what you'll hang on the pylons/MERs/TERs, I can send a chart showing the allowable number of weapons and their stations (some weapons pose clearance problems). I can also tell you if the MERs need to be hung "normally" or shifted forward (for CG). For example, here's a chart for M117s (MERs shifted forward):

(disregard the notes referring to "tank pylons" - those refer to very early C models that had the early tanks with separate pylons - versus the later tanks that had integrated pylon).

Gene K

[Mongoose]

Silver Kite,

Your post about the wing versus centerline tanks was spot on. Flying air to air with an empty centerline was basic airframe G loads ( 8.5G), no 6 "G" limits like the wing tanks required. And symmetry is a wonderful thing. Landing with a full wing tank was not fun; we had to increase landing speed to counter the imbalance.

The USAF converted the Phantoms with high performance tanks on the centerline in the 80's. These tanks had baffles internally and look nearly the same as the older 600 gallon ferry tanks with one exception. They had a ball joint on the rear end of the tank on a small pylon. Looked a lot like an F-15 600 gallon tank. (Gee, a Micky D product??) The ball joint fitted into a machined block attached to the belly of each Phantom. This allowed the tank to pivot away from the belly of the F-4 under G loads. The old ferry tank could pivot on what looked like two tiny fins at the rear of the tank and could do damage to the jet if dumped under G loads. We had a few happen like that out of Korat during Linebacker I & II. Safer to dump the old tank in level, 1 G flight.