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Jeff

Nuclear tipped air to air missiles

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Dear all,

I wonder besides the AIM-47 Falcon, is there any nuclear tipped air-to-air missile? I think nuclear AAMs is useful against AWACS, large formation of bombers and fighters since you don't need a precise target solution to destroy your enemy especially in BVR engagement. I was also very surprised Russia did not research into this area of nuclear tipped AAMs since it would nullify any BVR capabilities of the Western fighters.

Can someone enlighten me?

Thanks,

Jeffrey

Edited by Jeff

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Can't forget the Genie. There are no nuke-tipped AAM's in active service to my knowledge. I'd guess the accuracy of modern missiles is good enough that they're not needed. Well, plus the whole "raining fallout over whatever happens to be below" thing.

:D

Edited by mkimages

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Dear all,

I wonder besides the AIM-47 Falcon, is there any nuclear tipped air-to-air missile? I think nuclear AAMs is useful against AWACS, large formation of bombers and fighters since you don't need a precise target solution to destroy your enemy especially in BVR engagement. I was also very surprised Russia did not research into this area of nuclear tipped AAMs since it would nullify any BVR capabilities of the Western fighters.

Can someone enlighten me?

Thanks,

Jeffrey

Don't forget the AIM-26 Falcon and the AIR-2 Genie. Both versions of the Falcon carried a .25 KT warhead, while the Genie had a 1.5 KT warhead. As ICBMs became the weapon of choice there was less chance of bomber penetration and a nuke warhead seemed less necessary. The yield of the warheads are such that in tests it was determined that the radiation was not all that high for those beneath the blast. Certainly lower than anything a bomber would have dropped on a city if it made it to the drop point.

As for taking down an AWACs, would a HARM do the job? :D

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Don't forget the AIM-26 Falcon and the AIR-2 Genie. Both versions of the Falcon carried a .25 KT warhead, while the Genie had a 1.5 KT warhead. As ICBMs became the weapon of choice there was less chance of bomber penetration and a nuke warhead seemed less necessary. The yield of the warheads are such that in tests it was determined that the radiation was not all that high for those beneath the blast. Certainly lower than anything a bomber would have dropped on a city if it made it to the drop point.

As for taking down an AWACs, would a HARM do the job? :D

Well, I am not very familiar with HARM, but I think the HARM missile requires the target to emit constant radiation such as turning on the powerful radar. If AWACs detected it is locked, would it turn off its radar and the HARM will lose its lock? For the Russians that still heavily depend on SARH missiles, a nuclear tipped missile would decrease the time that the aircraft has to paint the target, due to it's large explosive radius(?). This is even more important to take down an AWACs-type aircraft from long-range. Imagine a scenario in which a Mig-31 aircraft armed with nuclear tipped missile takes down a E-2 hawkeye from long-range before sending squadrons of backfires to take down the carrier...

Edited by Jeff

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Can't forget the Genie. There are no nuke-tipped AAM's in active service to my knowledge. I'd guess the accuracy of modern missiles is good enough that they're not needed. Well, plus the whole "raining fallout over whatever happens to be below" thing.

:D

Yes, after cold war, you don't want to risk a fallout. However, I don't know if during Cold War years the USSR even study this method of taking down an Awacs type aircraft. For example, the E-2 hawkeye is a major obstacle for Soviet bombers such as Tu-22M3 to get close enough to target the carrier, since the F-14s will be notified by the E-2. Even the F-14 is on CAP, you can have escorting Mig-31 using the R-33s to faceoff the F-14s while the 'special' Mig-31 will launch its nuclear tipped AAM at the E-2.

Just a thought. :P

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By the way, does anyone know the effective blast radius of the nuclear tipped missile such as AIM-26 Falcon, AIR-2 and the AIM-47?

Yes yes, i know now we have proof of concept for the KS-172 and R-37 very long range missile but during the cold war, USSR did not have the technology to make a long range active radar missile with size that is feasible to be carried by the largest fighter.

Thanks.

Edited by Jeff

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Can't forget the Genie.

Not to be pedantic, but for accuracy's sake: the Genie is a rocket and not a missile.

Cheers,

Andre

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The good news in the E-2 scenario is I don't think Grumman had ever produced technology advanced enough to be succeptable to EMP. Vacume tubes baby!

Spongebob

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Just to let you know, you are not going to get an anwer to that.....and if by chance you do get an answer, it's not going to be correct. :worship:

Also, I would recommend everyone to be careful about asking about the capabilites of currect weapons, you are treading into an area that should not be discussed unless you are under the cone of silence.

Reddog

Given that the nuke's referenced above have long been retired and no one has been discussing current weapons, I don't think we have to worry too much about a visit from OPSEC police.

Regards,

John (proudly speaking from well outside the OPSEC circle of trust)

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okay in simple words:

Those weapons when detonated in the air do not generate any fall-out. You get fall out when the "fire-ball" touches the ground (surface explosion or low depth), when that happens everything in the immediate surroundings gets vapourised. everything that holds metal (the ground, earth,...) gets ionised by the release of neutrons during the explosion. The fire ball wich is very very hot starts quickly to cool down and rises up in the air to create that classis muschroom. All those dust particels that are now very radio-active get sucked up in the mushroom and after a while get blown away by the wind and will later "fall-out" of the air and contaminate large areas ( or they will rain -out) all very unpleased for humans offcourse....

When you get a low altititude explosion there will be no fall out but depending on the power (kilotons or megatons) you get destructive shock-waves and thermal radiation

High altitude bursts (what these weapons do) will not do much damage on the ground and the only possible contamination are possible weapon remains (unlikely) but you do get a lot of electromagnetic problems like Electro Magnetic Pulse, Blackout and Transient Radiation effects on electronics . Uhmm what does this mean is that every modern electronic device not protected by a box off Faraday could be destroyed , the blackout means that for some time no radiotransmissions will be possible. However those weapons like the genie missile are low yield nukes so the effects would be local to the enemy bombers (shock waves and electronic problems)

hope this makes sense in my english :thumbsup:

I have seen the data what different types of yields have for effects but that is not public info

Edited by 31Tiger

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I don't think we have to worry too much about a visit from OPSEC police.

Sweet!! I'll make sure to reference you on that if they come knocking on my cube. No jail for me because 11bee said so! No need for soap on a rope! Yay!

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Everything about the properties , how they work .... etc etc etc of nuclear weapons IS NOT CLASSIFIED INFORMATION and is easily accesible by everyone on this planet,

And no, terrorists can NOT make the "bomb" that is just the defense industry trying to convince us to buy more of their stuff! If IRAN and N-korea try for many years and with a lot of infrastructure and money to make one (perhaps) so some freedom fighter with a AK-47 in a cave hunted down by coalition forces somewhere in ??-stan will sure not make one

i am fully aware about military information security but i see nothing here that poses ANY PROBLEM

Edited by 31Tiger

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My 2 cents worth on security of classified information:

When I was in the SR-71 Senior Crown program, we were told many times that we could not talk about anything specific to the program to the general public or media. Even though certain things had appeared in public in unclassified material, we weren't supposed to verify what was or was not correct.

A person without a security clearance can see something in print or now on the internet and can comment on it all that they want. A person with a security clearance, cannot comment in public on that same item.

Case in point. There is another thread in this section with some very nice photos of recent EA-18G Growler aircraft. These were apparently taken by someone with everyday access to the flight line of an active squadron. Publishing them in a public forum could be a problem, especially when something as sensitive as crewmember names is legible. If those same pictures were taken at a public display such as an open house/air show, then no problem.

Darwin

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again , i fully agree and understand about al the security concerns that everyone here has, but again there is nothing secret explaining how nukes work! yes if you know absolutely nothing of the mather it all seems very shady!!

when someone asks something about nukes weapons and we start talking about old cold war weapons that are since long gone to the museum again i don't see the problem?

Some started talking about fall-out so i explained that there is no fall-out, again where is the OPSEC problem?

I work in the Chem Bio Rad Nuclear defense sector (including offcourse CBRN counter-terrorism) and i can guarantee you that if we are going that route that nukes are not the biggest problem

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i am fully aware about military information security but i see nothing here that poses ANY PROBLEM

How can you say that? Heck of it here is an example. If anyone on here had some kind of security clearance past or present, that person said nothing. Now one comes on the forum "Discussion" writing things that could possibly be classified information that other person knew about. One could make guilt of first said person since another discussed information in their presence.

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Reddog, when you find the sarcasm thingie let me know, I'd like to use it on a regular basis.

All I know about nukes is that if I ever get to see one go off, I'll be having the worst and most likely last day of my life.

Al P.

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Red Dog

Not wanting to start a who is right and who isn't war with you i really can not find anywhere, in this thread, information about blast radius effects ??? Please quote them in a reply so we can all read them ! (if you quote my reply on fall-out then i will put a big smile on my face)

Good day

Edited by 31Tiger

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Reddog, when you find the sarcasm thingie let me know, I'd like to use it on a regular basis.

All I know about nukes is that if I ever get to see one go off, I'll be having the worst and most likely last day of my life.

Al P.

Living on a base with missile silos and having nuke armed B-52s on 24hr alerts was never true-fully a comfortable feeling.

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I don't think we have to worry too much about a visit from OPSEC police.

Regards,

I'd make that I hope we don't have too much to worry about a visit from OPSEC police. I'll only relate this to get a clearance secret and above those "folks" go deeper into your history and background than you will imagine on your wildest nightmare. They will tell you things about you that you [DON'T KNOW] yourself. If they have cause to want to know more about you for reasons of security..Oh jeez. The most innocent seeming question can produce some very damaging results. Caution in this area is not to be taken lightly.

Edited by Angels49

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And once again, a good thread was lost to finger pointing.

so back to the question at hand:

the nuclear tipped rockets refered to here, since they are rockets, wouldn't they free fall to earth once they miss their target? and if so, would they detonate on impact?

Shark

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I thought the Gennie went off when the rocket motor burnt out, I remember reading that somewhere, does not mean I am right though!

Julien

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