Nuclear tipped air to air missiles

[Wayne S]

I thought the Gennie went off when the rocket motor burnt out, I remember reading that somewhere, does not mean I am right though!

Julien

Range was predetermined.

[Guest Michael Bay]

All I know about nukes is that if I ever get to see one go off, I'll be having the worst and most likely last day of my life.

No, that's just me doing some landscaping on my private island in the South Pacific.

[Waco]

AIR-2 GENIE

Unguided air-to-air rocket

Warhead was a 1.5kT W25 nuclear warhead

Estimated range: 6.2nm

Estimated lethal blast radius: 300meters (1,000feet)

Detonation mechanism: time delay fuze

All of the above can be found via a very quick Google search, and the above referenced information comes from a Wikipedia article. Definitive answers beyond that may not be reportable, depending on the current classification level of the program. Just because equipment gets retired, doesn't mean that all the relevant information and material on the program is immediately declassified. In fact, many thousands of records from World War II were only recently declassified. It is quite likely there are many thousands still remaining.

To answer Shark's question, the AIR-2 was not designed as an impact or even "near miss" weapon with a proximity fuze. It had a time delay fuze, and was an aerial area weapon, so it would not matter whether it hit anything or not. Once the time delay fuze countdown was complete, it would detonate the W25 warhead.

For some other interesting reading, Google the Plumbbob John test, the only live fire test of the Genie ever. Some neat shots out there of the warhead detonation.

Now, for some of the other guys reading this thread, including the OP: No offense, but I found all the above information via a VERY brief online search. All I knew about the Genie prior to this search was that the AIR-2 was a nuclear armed air-to-air rocket. The rest I learned from searching the net. You might try that first for some of this information....there's a lot more out there than you'd think.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Alvis 3.1

[Dave Williams]

Just to let you know, you are not going to get an anwer to that.....and if by chance you do get an answer, it's not going to be correct. :)

Also, I would recommend everyone to be careful about asking about the capabilites of currect weapons, you are treading into an area that should not be discussed unless you are under the cone of silence.

Reddog

But if you know that no one who actually knows is going to tell and he's going to get either 1) no answer or 2) an incorrect answer from Wiki or some book, who cares? And who cares if someone asks a question that isn't going to be really answered? At best he's going to unclassified information that anyone can get or get misinformation. Neither are going to be of any practical use to a real enemy.

You make it sound like anyone asking the question is violating OPSEC and making our country less secure. The average model geek asking the question isn't helping the bad guys. It's the person who actually knows and tells the real answer. That's the guy you should be chastising.

All I'm saying is that a simple statement saying actual capabilities of current weapons are classified would have been enough, without the "warning" that even daring to ask may make you a bad guy. There are a number of people here and on other forums that, like you, have knowledge of classified things (I freely admit I'm not one of them), but they manage to either avoid taking about it, or gently saying "that's classified" without making the person who asked feel like they are giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Dave Williams

[Alvis 3.1]

Thread edited to remove nastiness and overall stupidity.

Okay, that's five minutes of my life a couple of you guys owe me. Now...let's either reel them in and knock it the hell off, or get out the tape measures and prove who is the bigger man..or, just for laughs, let it go. Mmm-kay? I don't care who started it, or who seconded it, or who voted for it to carry on..it's DONE

If anyone feels like contributing to the thread with information or non-insulting advice, please, feel free to do so.

Al P.

Moderator with far less patience than some of you may imagine.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Alvis 3.1

[RandomCatFacts]

Studies show that if a cat falls off the seventh floor of a building it has about thirty percent less chance of surviving than a cat that falls off the twentieth floor.

[Waco]

Curses, I've been edited. This stupid avatar doesn't do anything. I was assured by the online JPEG sales webpage that it would protect me from the ARC mod goon squad, and none of my posts would ever be edited, deleted, and I could never be banned.

I want my money back.

[Alvis 3.1]

Sorry. No refunds.

What, you didn't recognize my IP on that site? I assumed everyone tracked IPs nowadays.

In any case, thank you for your business and the money is going to buy me more shelving units form my basement.

Alvis 3.1

[Collin]

Rabbit with the pancake on it's head time?

Again.... just getting in to say hello before they sound the siren and make us all lay down in the prison yard.

Cheers

ATIS

[Alvis 3.1]

Odd how a thread about nukes went thermonuclear.

Or ironic. Yeah, ironic would be a better term to use.

Alvis 3.1

[dahut]

F-89 Scorpion and the Genie missile. Have a google of that setup!

[C-130CrewChief]

I almost set off a nuclear explosion yesterday after a Taco Bell lunch.

Curt

[Jeff]

Wow, I just imagine a scenario and wonder the what and if's, and speak it out for sharing.. and ask some questions why it's not been done especially in the former Soviet Union. However, it seems this could let me to severe consequences ... and I may be the target by some authorities...now I am in trouble. :unsure:

Edited February 27, 2010 by Jeff

[C-130CrewChief]

Wow, I just imagine a scenario and wonder the what and if's, and speak it out for sharing.. and ask some questions why it's not been done especially in the former Soviet Union. However, it seems this could let me to severe consequences ... and I may be the target by some authorities...now I am in trouble. :unsure:

Watch out for the Copters!

He will tell you what's up!

Curt

[Finn]

I worked on AIR-2As at CFB Comox but i won't reveal any classified info however there was one little, but important piece of equipment we had. It was a stopwatch we used when testing the firing mech of the AIR-2A. It's brand name was Adanac (Canada backwards) and it was made in the USSR.

Jari

[C-130CrewChief]

I worked on AIR-2As at CFB Comox but i won't reveal any classified info however there was one little, but important piece of equipment we had. It was a stopwatch we used when testing the firing mech of the AIR-2A. It's brand name was Adanac (Canada backwards) and it was made in the USSR.

Jari

Was that some sort of shop joke? How did you calibrate a stopwatch made in the USSR? Did it come through the supply system?

Curt

[spejic]

I almost set off a nuclear explosion yesterday after a Taco Bell lunch.

Curt

Sir, as a member of the TBMSD (Taco Bell Munitions Security Detail), I must warn you against revealing this information to the general public. You have endangered Taco Bell's profits and brought fear to meat-simulation product consumers in the entire free world.

[Finn]

Was that some sort of shop joke? How did you calibrate a stopwatch made in the USSR? Did it come through the supply system?

Curt

It wasn't a joke, we didn't worry about calibration, just wound them up and they came thru the supply system.

Jari

[yardbird78]

A good friend of mine recently started a small business selling gas masks from a kiosk outside several local Taco Bell restaurants. Please patronize his store before your next "experience" at Taco Bell. He is hoping to soon go nationwide with this.

Darwin

[C-130CrewChief]

We have our gas masks issued! It's just common courtesy to yell out "GAS GAS GAS" prior to release.

That's insane about the stopwatches. I can see the Soviets making defective ones knowing that we relied on them. I love it! I get the ocasional piece of equipment that has "China" stamped on it. It seems weird to me. You gotta love the lowest bidder! :unsure:

Curt

[GreyGhost]

Curses, I've been edited. This stupid avatar doesn't do anything. I was assured by the online JPEG sales webpage that it would protect me from the ARC mod goon squad, and none of my posts would ever be edited, deleted, and I could never be banned.

I want my money back.

Dude ... You got ripped off ...

Gregg

[Oroka]

IIRC there was a proposed AIM-7 Sparrow X using the Genie warhead, but never got past the concept stage.

And FYI, in Soviet Russia, stop watch calibrates you!

Edited February 27, 2010 by Oroka

[Tailspin Turtle]

IIRC there was a proposed AIM-7 Sparrow X using the Genie warhead, but never got past the concept stage.

Thanks for that and it is so stated on Wikipedia, along with "proposed in 1958, but was canceled shortly thereafter." Sparrow X was an optional weapon for the F8U-3 Crusader, which was canceled in December 1958, and probably the F4H. Since the Sparrow and the Genie were so different, my presumption is that the change was not just the Genie warhead, but the addition of the Sparrow III guidance and control system to the Genie, which was unguided. One question is whether it was the Genie or the Sparrow X that was referred to as the Ding Dong. On line sources state that it was another name for the Genie, but since the only Ding Dong mention I have is for a Navy program, there is a possibility that it was Sparrow X. Except why bother with a silly name like that when Sparrow X suffices? Does anybody have a clue?

[Jeff]

The only reason I can think of why long range nuclear tipped missile was not further develop is because of their limited blast radius to disable the target.

A high explosive warhead will do the same trick.

BUT, I can naively shows a "modified" Mig-31 can carry 2 missiles, each SARH missile carries a 100 kg nuclear warhead.

From Wikipedia, the R-33 is equipped with a HE warhead weighting 47.5 kg. The Mig-31 usually carries 4 x R-33.

So, it's possible to replace 4 R-33s with 2 "air-to-air nuclear tipped missiles" carrying ~100 kg nuclear warhead.

I believe this will be enough to disable any AEW aircraft such as the E-2. The missile does not need to be very maneuverable to disable or take out targets of this type.

Is the effective blast radius large enough to disable target if it is off by say 5-10 KMs? We can think about it. (I don't want to know the answer as I don't want to be a target of the authorites

Without getting a bit too off-topic, one can argue there is the AEGIS destroyer, and the "Mig-31" has to evade a barrage of SM-2s before able to guide the missile to the AEW (which will try to run away). However, under this scenario, the AEGIS will have it's active radar on, making it extremely vulnerable for the anti-radation version of the AS-6.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Jeff

[Sean Bratton]

One thing to keep in mind was that the nuclear warhead was used because accuracy of rockets and missiles at the time were less than stellar, the bucket of instant sunshine ensured that you didn't have to get that close to bring down your target. Once the reliability of the guidance systems improved the need to use such a large warhead diminished.

I had a quick browse through the Genie chapters in Dr. John Clearwater's Canadian Nuclear Weapons and U.S. Nuclear Weapons in Canada and there are a few numbers that might be of interest considering the original question (there was an original question, I think).

After firing the recommended distance between the launch aircraft and the point of detonation was 6.4 km (3.8 miles). This was nothing to do with blast effect, but to put the launch crew outside of a lethal dose of radiation. The minimum altitude for employment of the AIR-2 was 1500 metres (+-5000 feet). It was noted that any detonation below 1000 metres (+-3300 feet) could result in "residential damage" although whether this was from blast or radiation wasn't stated. Detonation occurred after the rocket motor had completed it's burn, stated as being anywhere between 4.5 and 12 seconds.

One interesting fact was that the W25 warhead designed before the time of the permissive action link safety feature so the AIR-2/W25 combination did not have a PAL but the safety features installed remained classified (can I say that? ) at least 15 years after the Genie was removed from service (1984). This may be because the W25 was considered to be one of the easiest warheads to detonate.

The Genie was considered to have a kill rate of 92% per shot, so launching a pair from a CF-101 was thought to ensure a certain kill of one bomber.

If anyone has any sort of interest in the history RCAF, Canadian Military or nuclear weapons it's well worth searching for the two books. It's an interesting look at an era few Canadians know about or will admit to.

Cheers,

Sean

Edited February 27, 2010 by Sean Bratton