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I really don't get this Toyota problem Update - HE FAKED IT


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Seems alot of people depend on the Gov't helping them, that's why they call 911!!!

Those that call 911 while driving around with a stuck accelator, ........ should go to the head of the ine for the next Darwin Awards!!

Bo Roberts

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Seems alot of people depend on the Gov't helping them, that's why they call 911!!!

Those that call 911 while driving around with a stuck accelator, ........ should go to the head of the ine for the next Darwin Awards!!

Bo Roberts

In the August incident near San Diego, the fiery crash of a 2009 Lexus ES 350 killed California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, 45, and three members of his family on State Route 125 in Santee. The runaway car was traveling at more than 120 mph when it hit a sport utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and burst into flames. One of the family members called police about a minute before the crash to report the vehicle had no brakes and the accelerator was stuck. The call ended with someone telling people in the car to hold on and pray, followed by a woman's scream.

Yes, I think that CHP officer is not too likely to be a Darwin Award recipient. The reality isn't as simple as you might like to think it is.

Al P.

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Yes, I think that CHP officer is not too likely to be a Darwin Award recipient. The reality isn't as simple as you might like to think it is.

Al P.

Unless those 'clever Toyota engineers' designed it so one can NOT shiflt it to neutral, it IS all that simple. ALL my US cars can be shifted into neutral while driving!!

I'll give you that reaction time is critical, so I can see one running through a garage or hitting something in front, or behind you. But by the time a car hits 120 MPH and ya can think to call 911, ......... no excuses!!

Bo Roberts

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Seems alot of people depend on the Gov't helping them, that's why they call 911!!!

Those that call 911 while driving around with a stuck accelator, ........ should go to the head of the ine for the next Darwin Awards!!

Bo Roberts

That makes sense. Sooooooo! if I get in-trouble with a car with a stuck accelerator that has no mechanical link flying down the highway, I should not call 911? I thought 911 was an Emergency Hot-line.

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Unless those 'clever Toyota engineers' designed it so one can NOT shiflt it to neutral, it IS all that simple. ALL my US cars can be shifted into neutral while driving!!

I'll give you that reaction time is critical, so I can see one running through a garage or hitting something in front, or behind you. But by the time a car hits 120 MPH and ya can think to call 911, ......... no excuses!!

Bo Roberts

The wife was on the phone with 911, not the driver.

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http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100308/...s_runaway_prius

What is it that people do not understand about their vehicles?

2. Turn off engine. Who cares if it redlines while I am braking? Except for maybe Toyota who would be replacing my engine free of charge. I know I wouldn't burn out my brakes opposing a force working against it.

Duh, pretty simple emergency if you ask me.

When I turn off the engine on *my* car (a 2002 Jeep Liberty) the steering wheel locks into position if you attempt to turn it and I lose the benefit of my power-assisted brakes. So I think this is a good option if I happen to be in a vehicle that has this "simple" emergency while on a dry lake bed.

I have no idea if Toyota Priuses respond to engine shut offs in the same way the my Jeep does. I have no idea if you can even shut off a Toyota engine while it's in gear. But, maybe, just maybe the driver of the Prius had experience with other cars that made him think doing your option number 2 (or number 1 for that matter) might not be a good idea. Do you think it would be a good idea to be driving at 90 mph on a California interstate with a steering wheel locked in the centered position??

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Unless those 'clever Toyota engineers' designed it so one can NOT shiflt it to neutral, it IS all that simple. ALL my US cars can be shifted into neutral while driving!!

Bo Roberts

I would like to hear other test done with these systems. I heard Toyota talk about moister causing friction. So I take it moister can also contact the electrical circuitry.

Now about the Neutral deal. One lady in a Lexus said she tried to shove the car in reverse with hope of blowing up the transmission disconnection the drive line between the engine and the axles. She said the car would not go into Reverse.

Now, either she hit the "reverse lock out" which would put her into neutral or she bypassed neutral and had the stick in reverse, yet nothing happened. In either case, shifter did go into neutral yet nothing happened; Think about it.

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When I turn off the engine on *my* car (a 2002 Jeep Liberty) the steering wheel locks into position if you attempt to turn it and I lose the benefit of my power-assisted brakes. So I think this is a good option if I happen to be in a vehicle that has this "simple" emergency while on a dry lake bed.

A car should have at least one notch/click before the steering locks. Not that someone driving should try it unless they know not to go into lock.

I would give up power brakes my self, before fighting the torque force of the engine against the brakes. If the car is in Wide Open Throttle (W.O.T) it will not take long before the brakes just heat up and fade coming useless anyway.

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I haven't heard much to indicate that other countries are having similar issues with Toyota's. I wonder if this is turning into a case of media-fueled mass hysteria.

For all of those that are whining, please send me the title to your POS Lexus or Toyota. I will be glad to assume the risks after I transfer ownership.

Regards,

John

There have been many incident of accelerationpedals for drivers {in Toyota Prius} having failed in the UK...there have been one or two real serious accidents where the driver was unable to slow down at all and the cars have gone thru barriers on the roads and into the garden and then into the walls of houses ..

One elderly gentlemean ended up in a ditch .and when the cops examined his car they dound that the clutch and acceleration pedals were inoperable...

TOYOTA has also ahd complaint of this nature in GERMANY too..

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Unless those 'clever Toyota engineers' designed it so one can NOT shiflt it to neutral, it IS all that simple. ALL my US cars can be shifted into neutral while driving!!

no excuses!!

Bo Roberts

well it is apparent you don't have the car in question and don't know the workings of it, so I think by judging someone on what is "simple" logic, your view is a bit tainted. it's very easy for someone that's not in the situation and doesn't know what the mechanics are of a vehicle to sit and say "why didn't they just do...." but unless you have that vehicle, designed said vehicle or know what the heck you're talking about then you really have no earthly idea how simple it is to get out of the situation do you?

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I'm just guessing as I don't drive those Japanese POS, but I'd guess that when someone puts it in neutral, the load is removed from the drive train and the engine hits red-line real fast!! Drivers think it's still driving the wheels and think nothing has happened. It should be coasting and the brakes should work just fine!! When the car stops, the engine will still be red-line but not going anywhere!! Put it in PARK fast, then turn off the engine.

Now, IF one can NOT put it in NEUTRAL, then ALL Toyotas should be remover from our roads immediately!! They're unsafe anytime the engine is running!!

One should NOT turn off the engine while driving down the road. You may NOT be able to do that anyway unless the XMSN is in the PARK position.

Bo Roberts

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I'm just guessing as I don't drive those Japanese POS, but I'd guess that when someone puts it in neutral, the load is removed from the drive train and the engine hits red-line real fast!! Drivers think it's still driving the wheels and think nothing has happened. It should be coasting and the brakes should work just fine!! When the car stops, the engine will still be red-line but not going anywhere!! Put it in PARK fast, then turn off the engine.

Now, IF one can NOT put it in NEUTRAL, then ALL Toyotas should be remover from our roads immediately!! They're unsafe anytime the engine is running!!

One should NOT turn off the engine while driving down the road. You may NOT be able to do that anyway unless the XMSN is in the PARK position.

Bo Roberts

Have not driven one in a while. If and when I get to the track, I would like to give one a good looking over tho.

My self, I have a safe guard in my brain to cut power in my vehicles anyway.

Sounds like Lexus does not even have a key? Anyone on here have that system?

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Interesting read.

http://bulletin.aarp.org/yourworld/getting...n_ignition.html

Amid its widening recall crisis, Toyota Motor Corp. said it had moved closer to adopting changes to its push-button ignition system to give drivers an added margin of safety if their vehicles accelerate out of control.

Executives at the company's headquarters in Japan are considering redesigning the keyless ignition system, known as Smart Key, to allow drivers to shut off the engine by tapping the button three times in a row, company spokesman Brian Lyons said.

Currently, Toyota and Lexus vehicles with a push-button starter can be shut off when in motion only by depressing and holding the button for 3 full seconds, a procedure that safety experts have suggested is counterintuitive and can prolong runaway acceleration incidents. A redesigned system would allow either method to kill the engine.

"The thought is, what would somebody be doing in a situation where they absolutely had to shut down the vehicle?" Lyons said. He said the changes would be implemented only on future-year production cars rather than vehicles already on the road or being built now.

"It would not be part of a recall situation," Lyons said.

The Smart Key system was highlighted by investigators for the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration as a "significant factor" in a crash involving a Lexus ES near San Diego in August that took the lives of a California Highway Patrol officer and three members of his family.

In the wake of that accident, Toyota announced the first in a series of major recalls aimed at addressing growing complaints of sudden acceleration in its vehicles. Toyota has recalled more than 10 million vehicles because of defects that can cause runaway acceleration or braking problems, with about 2 million vehicles involved in more than one of the actions.

Keyless ignition systems are only one potential factor in sudden acceleration, but their widespread adoption worries some safety experts.

Last month, The Times reported that 155 vehicle models in the U.S. offer keyless ignition systems, compared with 41 five years ago, yet there are essentially no federal or industry standards regulating the technology.

As part of that report, The Times noted that Toyota was considering changing the operation of the push-button system. News that those discussions had advanced to a specific potential remedy was first reported Wednesday by Consumer Reports.

Paul Green, a human factors expert at the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute, said Toyota and other carmakers have designed push-button start systems with very little research about how consumers naturally expect such systems to operate.

Green said that if Toyota now rushes a redesign into production without any new research, "it is really risky."

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said last week that concerns about stopping cars with push-button starters were among the electronic-related complaints regulators were examining regarding Toyota.

Green said engineers have built in delays to engine shutdown out of concern that a child might push a power button and turn off the engine. Another concern of automakers is that the driver might inadvertently shut down the engine if power buttons can be activated by a single momentary touch.

But those concerns force the industry to balance the risk of two rare events, Green said a driver who has to shut down an engine deliberately in an emergency versus an unintended shutdown of the engine. Without research, it is difficult to know how to deal with those competing issues, he said.

Nearly every automaker that uses keyless ignition systems has implemented a slightly different procedure for emergency shutdown, with some requiring as little as a single tap and others requiring a lengthy hold-down. A vehicle traveling at 100 miles per hour covers roughly 500 feet nearly two football fields in 3 seconds.

Furthermore, many drivers of vehicles with push-button ignition are unaware of how to operate the system. The owner's manual for a 2007 Lexus IS, for example, warns motorists on Page 99: "Do not touch the engine switch while driving."

Toyota's manual for its 2009 Camry, by comparison, indicates on Page 129 that the engine can be shut down in an emergency by pushing and holding the button for more than 3 seconds.

According to Richard Pak, a professor of psychology at Clemson University who studies human interaction with technology, the safest kind of ignition switch is one that works in an intuitive manner. That's because in a panic situation, humans "revert to learned behavior."

"When you're out of control at 80 miles per hour, you're not going to remember complicated things," Pak said.

Toyota is also planning to install software that automatically brings the engine back to idle when the driver steps on the brake. Such a system, known as a brake override, is used by a number of other manufacturers.

Lyons said that Toyota would install a brake override on all new cars starting with the 2011 model year. In addition, the automaker is adding that program to four models involved in its 5.4-million-vehicle floor-mat recall Camry, Avalon, Lexus IS and Lexus ES. He said a decision had not been made about putting a brake override in the eight other models in that recall the Highlander, Corolla, Venza, Matrix, Prius, Tacoma, Tundra and Pontiac Vibe, which Toyota made in a joint venture with General Motors.

John Gomez, a San Diego attorney representing the family of the CHP officer killed last summer, said he was gratified to hear that Toyota would expand the keyless ignition system's functions but believed the brake override was more crucial.

"They should retrofit every vehicle on the road," Gomez said. "There is no defensible reason that the throttle should remain wide open when the driver has both feet on the brake pedal."

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Ok for someone who drives a mid-90's Jetta with a stick, what reason other than as a gadget does a 'Keyless ignition' serve? Personally I think taking the driver too far out of the equation driving is a bad thing, leading to distracted drivers when they don't have to pay much attention to driving.

My one experience was with an 84 Rabbit with a carberator and it broke one day on the way home from school and I was in afterburner going up the interstate (90+ in 1st!). Fortunately my brakes worked and I got home they smoked for an hour...after I sprayed them down. But other than the engine going haywire everything else worked as it should of (and yes I should have pulled over and called a tow truck - but I was young and stupid.

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It was pouring pure gas into the carb...afterburner - probably overreved it but it ran for another year. Always surprised I didn't fry everything in that car. But proved to me that a simple stick to me is preferable to a fly by wire monstrosity

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Currently, Toyota and Lexus vehicles with a push-button starter can be shut off when in motion only by depressing and holding the button for 3 full seconds, a procedure that safety experts have suggested is counterintuitive and can prolong runaway acceleration incidents. A redesigned system would allow either method to kill the engine.

in this sentence alone there is proved opperator negligence

if you get into an unfammiliar machine you should fammiliarise yourself with all controls

i have braught a truck to a stop that stuck on wide open throttle

not knowing your controlls in an emergency is no excuse

the first thing i want to know about any vehicle new to me is what procedures i use to stop it in an emergency

if a vehicle has a specific stopping procedure specific to its type you learn it off by heart not try to remember what the manual said in an emergency

sometimes we have to take responsibility for our own actions , and not rely on sueing companys for our own actions !!

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Ok for someone who drives a mid-90's Jetta with a stick, what reason other than as a gadget does a 'Keyless ignition' serve? Personally I think taking the driver too far out of the equation driving is a bad thing, leading to distracted drivers when they don't have to pay much attention to driving.

My one experience was with an 84 Rabbit with a carberator and it broke one day on the way home from school and I was in afterburner going up the interstate (90+ in 1st!). Fortunately my brakes worked and I got home they smoked for an hour...after I sprayed them down. But other than the engine going haywire everything else worked as it should of (and yes I should have pulled over and called a tow truck - but I was young and stupid.

it may have seemed like 90 , i owned the jetta GLI same running gear as your rabbit GTI first is a very low acceleration gear that would probably struggle to 60 whilst thrashing the t*ts off the engine ( practicaly impossible to over red line because of an engine cut out limmiter ) the engine kicked in again after slowing down and easing off the loud pedal for a couple of secs

fith gear topped out at 115-120 mph

Edited by tornado64
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in this sentence alone there is proved opperator negligence

if you get into an unfammiliar machine you should fammiliarise yourself with all controls

i have braught a truck to a stop that stuck on wide open throttle

not knowing your controlls in an emergency is no excuse

the first thing i want to know about any vehicle new to me is what procedures i use to stop it in an emergency

if a vehicle has a specific stopping procedure specific to its type you learn it off by heart not try to remember what the manual said in an emergency

sometimes we have to take responsibility for our own actions , and not rely on sueing companys for our own actions !!

I would agree with you "if" Toyota made it known, can you recall Toyota making an ad on tv telling people this information?

In the article there was also this part.

Furthermore, many drivers of vehicles with push-button ignition are unaware of how to operate the system. The owner's manual for a 2007 Lexus IS, for example, warns motorists on Page 99: "Do not touch the engine switch while driving."

I take it, there is nothing in the manual about turning off the engine while driving. Even then, 3 seconds? There is at-least 2-3 seconds in lead time before the person even reacts to touching the button. By then depending on the IS model. It could reach 60mph from a dead stop never mind from a roll. That is a significant amount of rate of change in velocity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_IS

Keep in mind the car is accelerating at a pretty good rate with what I wrote and your trying to do all this while controlling the steering wheel. Looking at one of the IS's they have it doing mid 13s in the quarter mile. Back when my car was around them times. I could pop the car in natural around 65mph if I recall right (top of second gear) and car could coast to 80mph or so.

Edited by Wayne S
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They played the 911 call on CNN and the guy refused to shift into neutral, even though the 911 operator asked him to. He said he didn't know what might happen (um, your engine disconnects from the drive train and then you can stop the car?). Now I agree that the problem shouldn't have happened and must be fixed, but he takes a bit of the blame for his wild ride continuing for refusing to take action that could have stopped it.

I guess I'm a bit skeptical about people who say they tried to shift into neutral, but couldn't. Not saying it couldn't possibly be true, but find it difficult to believe that cars are designed that way. I can definitely understand an interlock to prevent shifting into reverse while moving, but not into neutral. I shifted my RAV4 into neutral at 50 mph yesterday (I was coming to a red light and there was no one behind me) and it worked fine.

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They played the 911 call on CNN and the guy refused to shift into neutral, even though the 911 operator asked him to. He said he didn't know what might happen (um, your engine disconnects from the drive train and then you can stop the car?). Now I agree that the problem shouldn't have happened and must be fixed, but he takes a bit of the blame for his wild ride continuing for refusing to take action that could have stopped it.

I guess I'm a bit skeptical about people who say they tried to shift into neutral, but couldn't. Not saying it couldn't possibly be true, but find it difficult to believe that cars are designed that way. I can definitely understand an interlock to prevent shifting into reverse while moving, but not into neutral. I shifted my RAV4 into neutral at 50 mph yesterday (I was coming to a red light and there was no one behind me) and it worked fine.

as said there is no excuse for not knowing how to stop a vehicle , if i had a system i was dubious about stopping i would want to know my nearest wire or fuse to pull

agreed three seconds is a long time in some situations but this case was a prolonged ride and if true he refused to knock a gear drive train into neutral you have to ask patrolman or not was he realy fit to be a driver ??

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They played the 911 call on CNN and the guy refused to shift into neutral, even though the 911 operator asked him to. He said he didn't know what might happen (um, your engine disconnects from the drive train and then you can stop the car?). Now I agree that the problem shouldn't have happened and must be fixed, but he takes a bit of the blame for his wild ride continuing for refusing to take action that could have stopped it.

I guess I'm a bit skeptical about people who say they tried to shift into neutral, but couldn't. Not saying it couldn't possibly be true, but find it difficult to believe that cars are designed that way. I can definitely understand an interlock to prevent shifting into reverse while moving, but not into neutral. I shifted my RAV4 into neutral at 50 mph yesterday (I was coming to a red light and there was no one behind me) and it worked fine.

Which 911 call?

By rights, unless one has some kind of sports shifter (Ratchet type or two gates) One should able to give the shifter a good whack with their hand and end into Neutral from hitting the reverse lockout.

Saying that, the more I read into these things, The more I get the W.T.F was Toyota thinking deal in my brain.

Read somewhere the reason for the three second delay was pretty much a safety deal in-case a kid touched it with the car running. Now not for nothing, If ones kid is in the front drivers area, with a car running; is the kid shutting off the car a bad thing?

Heck, say the kid touches the button and turns the car on, pretty much a kids first instinct is to undo what they did. If you ask me this key-less crap has bad idea wrote all over it. Do people even need to be in the car for another to start it?

Really! Does driving a car need to be rocket science :worship:

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