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Davfoe

camo help

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hey all,

working on some BF-109's & FW-190 A's and need some help with 3 views and RLM#'s for the following:

FW-190 a

FW-190 A3

BF-109 G

Also anyone have the same for JG-54 aircraft or point me in the right direction?

thanks,

Edited by Davfoe

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I found this on the forum somewhere, cant remember when, who, why, or where.

LINK

click on the blue words for top views

Edited by pbishop

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For the first: RLM 70/71/76 with patches of RLM02 showing through

Second: RLM 81/82/76

Third: Not sure on the Bf 109G, as I believe the artists rendering for the color shown here is speculatory, at best.

Greg

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JG 54 birds on the Eastern Front colors are a study unto themselves and have been the subject of much debate. Opinions range from they were painted in standard RLM colors, custom mixed colors or painted with stocks of captured Russian paint.

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For the first: RLM 70/71/76 with patches of RLM02 showing through

Second: RLM 81/82/76

Third: Not sure on the Bf 109G, as I believe the artists rendering for the color shown here is speculatory, at best.

Greg

Thanks Greg, Any idea what the top cam of the FW-190 A would look like?

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FWIW, just looked in Jagdwaffe Vol. 4, Sec. 3 (where this profile was pulled from) and the description of the color is as follows:

"while the darker of the two colors remained fairly consistent and was similar to RLM 71, on this aircraft the second color is much lighter green."

The B&W photos seem to back this up, I would be leaning towards something lighter than RLM 70/71 on the upper surfaces. My scanner kind of sucks but notice the contrast between the greens? It usually isn't that pronounced with 70/71.

190a4.jpg

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Thanks Greg, Any idea what the top cam of the FW-190 A would look like?

Remeber that the aircraft is a Fw 190A-4 so the factory standard upper surface camo would have been 74/75. JG 54 was creative in their colors and, as mentioned before, no one knows for sure what greens they used - RLM, Soviet stocks, or a home brew.

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Remeber that the aircraft is a Fw 190A-4 so the factory standard upper surface camo would have been 74/75. JG 54 was creative in their colors and, as mentioned before, no one knows for sure what greens they used - RLM, Soviet stocks, or a home brew.

Yes, but if that were so then the top portion of the FW's spine should be in RLM 74/75, and it's not, it's in the two tone green, therefore one would assume the top of the wings should be in this as well.

Mikester, would you happen to have any other niffty color profiles in that book of yours would you? I've got a BUNCH to do up and I want to do Eastern Front stuff.

Edited by Davfoe

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Yes, but if that were so then the top portion of the FW's spine should be in RLM 74/75, and it's not, it's in the two tone green, therefore one would assume the top of the wings should be in this as well.

...

I said since the standard was 74/75 and since JG 54 used their own camo, no one knows for sure what colors the upper surfaces were painted. They may have used 70 or 71 and some other green or captured Soviet paints, or a mixture devised by JG 54 or a combination. All the profiles of those JG 54 aircraft are speculation wrt actual shades.

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For that first machine, I would use RLM70 and RLM82 with some patches of RLM02. Please read the whole message before deciding to shoot me now :woot.gif:

There's as already mentioned several theories about the colors of JG54 aircraft. The darkest color was propably RLM70 but for the brighter green many explanation and theories can be found.

One is that it's russian AMT-4, a second theory is that it's a green mixed from available RLM colors to mimic AMT-4. (Profileartist Claes Sundin told me that he had seen samples from JG54 aircraft himself that match AMT-4)

Ken Merrick has the theory that the colors RLM81 and RLM82 were actually re-issued RLM61 and RLM62 and that it was these colors that were used by JG54 in a field test, long before the actual 81 and 82 saw use in the war.

Whatever you choose to believe, RLM82 from for example Gunze, is a pretty good match for the brighter color.

Sometimes RLM02 was used but can in some old reddish pictures looks like a sand or earth color...

Here's a profile from I've done showing Hannes Traufloft's Gustav in RLM70 AMT-4 and RLM02

Bf109G-2_Left_Hannes%20Trautloft_1024.jpg

Here's a pic of a model I've done painted in Gunze RLM70 and 82...

IMG_2790.JPG

Finally, here the aircraft that I think the last profile is based on...

Bf109G-2_Right_Yellow%202%20IIJG54_1024.jpg

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Yes JG 54, camo is quite a task to interped.

I would discard the use of russian paint teory.

I done at little experimenting by adding 04 to 71 and it gives a nice bright green, wich is quite simular to Farrel's 82. Who's bf 109 i find lookes like very nice and acurate in color.

So I you say that the painters at JG 54 used there own mix of RLM colors.

Cheers

Jes

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I'm with Touvdal. The green (70 and 71) colours must have been available as they were standard on bombers and transports at the time. They were sometimes operating from the same airfields. Adding marking colours like 04 to these greens does indeed give colours similar to those that seem to have been applied to the JG54 machines. Adding RLM 23 (red) and RLM 04 (yellow) to one of the greens will give the sandy brown colour. We'll never know for sure but I suspect these paints were available and,crucially, known to the Luftwaffe painters. When some "experten" landed,and demanded that his aircraft be painted in more suitable colours,I feel that the painters would be more likely to work with what they knew than spray paints/laquers of unknown provenance and quality onto their precious airframes.

Steve

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Hi Davfoe

For the FW-190´s check the Eduard website! They have lots of pdf files from their models to download, they may help you! They've helped me a while back with willi maximowitz machine and with Emil Lang´s which I´m still building! Check them out!

Best regards

Filipe

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I used Tamiya Dark Green and MM Russian Armor Green on this one, I'm fairly happy with the colors:

72_109F4_yellow8_3.JPG

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Yes, but if that were so then the top portion of the FW's spine should be in RLM 74/75, and it's not, it's in the two tone green, therefore one would assume the top of the wings should be in this as well.

Mikester, would you happen to have any other niffty color profiles in that book of yours would you? I've got a BUNCH to do up and I want to do Eastern Front stuff.

I do, if you have anything particular that you're looking for let mw know and I'll see what I can do.

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The problem I have with the lighter green being the RLM pre-war color is that it was dropped from use in mid 1939 or so, and the late war replacement color didn't appear until mid-late 1944. Given the choatic nature of the Luftwaffe logistics system, would JG 54 have been able to get stocks of an out of production paint supplied to them in Russia in 1942-3? (I guess an alternative theory could be that a 1939 order for paint finally caught up with them :woot.gif: )

In a similar vein, while they could have brought old supplies with them when they deployed to the Eastern Front in 1941, why would they use space for a paint that was no longer in use and for which they most likely wouldn't anticipate needing a year or two later? FWIW, my own wag is that the lighter green was either a home brew or captured Soviet stocks of AMT-4.

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I think that the theory about RLM62 / 82 was that the RLM were looking for suitable greens and it would have been far easier to create a test batch of an old, tried and tested formula for a field test than creating a brand new one so I don't see any problem with it. Not if you consider it to have been a test ORDERED by the RLM, I agree that it would have been very unlikely that JG54 would have been able to get their hands on it by their own initiative though.

Adding RLM04 to RLM71 is a very interesting thought though and the most likely that I have heard when I think about it. It would as you say have been avialable in great quantities. That'll be my next try whenever I build another JG54 aircraft!

EDIT: Having played around with 71/04 mixes in photoshop I like the idea even more. It doesn't really take very much yellow either to get a much brighter green. I can see how an 04/71 mix could very well end up looking very close to AMT-4.

The use of captured paint on the other hand is problematic given the complex nature of aviation laquers and their purposes.

Edited by Cpt_Farrel

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Thanks all for the help, Who new that my dive into the Luftwaffe would start with the toughest subjects.

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Here is a "generic" JG54 machine I did as an experiment. It doesn't try to represent anything in particular. It is a re-paint of a scrapper. All the camouflage colours were made by mixing four RLM colours (70,71,23,04) which should have been readily available at the time. It doesn't mean that's what they did but I think it makes it possible.

1903-1.jpg

Steve

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I agree that it doesn't really prove anything but it does look very good. I wouldn't mind seeing more shots of that model. (If I may hi-jack the thread a bit...)

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I've only got a couple. It was done as a paint mixing experiment as a result of a similar discussion,a few years ago, to the one in this thread. It has now gone to the great storage box in the attic!

1904.jpg

1901.jpg

I think I attempted to replicate a general scheme from various references for JG54. I now wish I'd allowed some of the original grey scheme to leak through. It certainly doesn't represent a particular aircraft.

Cheers

Steve

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Standard Jagdwaffe camo.

1939. 70/71/65 in classic splinter camo pattern with a low demarcation between the greens and the light blue on the fuselage.

Early to mid 1940. Splinter pattern retained but overall effect lightened by using 02 instead of 70 and raising the demarcation line of the 65 2/3 to 3/4 of the way up the fuselage sides.

Mid to late 40. Above retained but fuselage sides darkened again by mottling with mainly 02 (and/or 71)

1941. Some will debate this but there is quite strong evidence to suggest the shift to 74/75/76 and softer disruptive pattern occured very early this year.

1942-mid 44. 74/75/76

possibly july but definitely sept 44-may 45. Introduction of RLMs 81, 82 and 83 in various two colour combos with greener varient 76/Bare metal undersides. However this was a time of confusion and shortages and "any of the colours in any of the sizes" were possible.

This means that your Fw 190A (presumably you mean an early 190, an A-0 to A-3) may have been in 71/02/65 but probably 74/75/76, the Fw 190A-4 definitely in 74/75/76 and the Me 109G almost definitely 74/75/76 unless it was a very late war build.

I would reccommend the Michael Ullmann book published in the UK by Hikoki. He also includes an chapter on JG54.

Edited by GPaulC

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I can't disagree with your summary,the problems lie with all the exceptions. Mixed greys (some regard these as precursors of RLM 74 and 75) were being seen on Bf109s over Britain in the summer of 1940 as evidenced in many crashed enemy aircraft reports and photographs. The variation in camouflage even prompted questions about it to captured enemy pilots. I've attached the two sheets of questions asked to Rolf Pingel who as you may know was shot down in July '41 whilst flying a (then new) Bf109F-2 in which we were rather interested. Note question 8.

Pingelquestions1.jpg

Pingelquestions2.jpg

His slightly disingenuous answer was that the schemes were standard and any variations depended on the skill of the painter, patently not the case but then he was under enemy interrogation!

See here:

inter3.jpg

The BOB era Ju88 being restored in Norway has an RLM66 interior as well. Despite an unequivocal claim that it should be RLM02 over on HS recently,it is not. You can check it out here

http://www.ju88.net/

This machine first flew in January 1940 well over a year before it was "supposed" to have the darker colour.

As for JG54 I think Ullmann's explanation (which I personally like) is just one of several possibilities. Those aircraft certainly didn't have anything standard about their camouflage but then they were a long way from Berlin.

Isn't the Luftwaffe fun?

Cheers

Steve

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Hi Steve - interesting stuff. Luftwaffe fun? Always, and nearly as much as the German air arm in the First Great Unpleasantness. Voss' cowl colour anyone?

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