Trumpeter A-10 resin engine ID help wanted

[nomore1959]

I have the Trumpeter 1/32 A-10A N/AW #02215 series 15 kit. The resin engine mold provided is not the TF-34-GE-100 as required. This is my first aircraft model and quite the undertaking as a noob. So I do not know the first thing about aircraft engine components and their possible colors. I have plenty of great pics of a TF-34-100 which do me no good when the kit engines are not even close in routing of component piping, wiring, component placement,etc. I would like to have an ID on what this is so I can paint and further detail according to the engine this mold truly represents. At least it would be an inaccurate engine for the A-10 with true to life engine detail. Otherwise my best guess is to study other pics of GE turbofan engines and totally wing it. Out of respect of the knowledgable modelers on this site, I would rather get it right, than close, if there is someone out there that can correctly ID the engine. I possess no knowledge of a caliber to be a "rivet counter" as they are referred to in some instances. However, I am a bit of a perfectionist on a quest, in my older age of 50, trying and learning to just let some things go and be satisfied. This is my first, and possibly my last, undertaking of such a giant leap of faith, as far as a model goes. I am a disabled vet with neuropathy problems which greatly affect my hands. I am scheduled for a Spinal Cord Stimulator implant on March 30, 2010. This will help mask the pain until the pain signals go totally awry and start originating directly from the brain and not my extremities. I have been a fan of the A-10 ever since my time spent at Davis Monthan during some time in the Air Force years ago. Just have to do this build before the ability to use my hands is gone. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[yardbird78]

Can you post a picture of the engine you have and then maybe one of the engine gurus here can ID it for you.

Darwin

[nomore1959]

Can you post a picture of the engine you have and then maybe one of the engine gurus here can ID it for you.

Darwin

I have some pictures of it from other articles. Will post as soon as I check out the forum FAQ area to learn how to post a pic.

And here we go...

That went well. Now this is the General Electric TF34-GE-100 it is supposed to represent.

I realize some of the parts that are in the resin pics are not in the engine photos and vice-versa. Concern is that components that surround the compressor and combustor areas just don't jive with each other.

Edited March 16, 2010 by nomore1959

[aim9xray]

I realize some of the parts that are in the resin pics are not in the engine photos and vice-versa. Concern is that components that surround the compressor and combustor areas just don't jive with each other.

Well, the bad news is that the resin part does represent the TF34 in an inaccurate and rather "imaginative" way. If I understand you correctly, part of the problem in comparing the images is that the resin engine does not have:

- the fan assembly (most likely mounted in the kit nacelle)

- the "birdcage" which covers the forward compressor section

- the stub (false) pylon at the top of the engine

- the inner nacelle doors

The first (real) engine is pictured as it was shipped from GE to Fairchild Republic and is missing the final engine buildup kit. The only place that you would see an engine like this would be at the engine shop. The exhaust pipe/cone is not installed.

The other two photos show a FTD engine which is much closer to what you would see on the aircraft. Although, the birdcage panels and stub pylon panels would most likely be installed if the engine was hung. (You can see the frames for the birdcage panels near the fan duct - note all the holes for the fasteners!). The exhaust pipe/cone is installed, but is covered by the outer fairing. So, what you have there in the resin engine is correct, but incomplete.

Do you want me to identify what is on the real engine and then you can scratch your head at the "blobology" on the resin engine?

HTH,

Craig

[nomore1959]

Well, the bad news is that the resin part does represent the TF34 in an inaccurate and rather "imaginative" way. If I understand you correctly, part of the problem in comparing the images is that the resin engine does not have:

- the fan assembly (most likely mounted in the kit nacelle)

- the "birdcage" which covers the forward compressor section

- the stub (false) pylon at the top of the engine

- the inner nacelle doors

The first (real) engine is pictured as it was shipped from GE to Fairchild Republic and is missing the final engine buildup kit. The only place that you would see an engine like this would be at the engine shop. The exhaust pipe/cone is not installed.

The other two photos show a FTD engine which is much closer to what you would see on the aircraft. Although, the birdcage panels and stub pylon panels would most likely be installed if the engine was hung. (You can see the frames for the birdcage panels near the fan duct - note all the holes for the fasteners!). The exhaust pipe/cone is installed, but is covered by the outer fairing. So, what you have there in the resin engine is correct, but incomplete.

Do you want me to identify what is on the real engine and then you can scratch your head at the "blobology" on the resin engine?

HTH,

Craig

My problem exist in the fact that I have no idea of the nature of the blob components, which leaves me without a clue as to what red lines go to what (origin-destination), same for metal lines, wires, metal tubing, etc. I have no jet engine knowledge but I understood all that you wrote. In the kit, the bird cage, stub pylon inner nacelle doors and the exhaust cone outer fairing is all one clear plastic housing that encases the resin engine. So, in order to show engine the area where you want to show the detail is either left clear or you have to cut the inner nacelle doors out of the whole outer housing for the engine. I have thus far found no good picture of how the inner nacelle door attatched. I am confused on this fact that somewhere a post mentiond that the inner nacelle door it pulled back out of the way when the outer nacelle door is opened. But pics I have look like the inner nacelle door has its own fasteners to hold it in place. So I realize the missing resin engine parts are all in one as the clear housing. I would like to paint the clear housing in proper colors and cut out the inner nacelle door. Do I cut that out and leave it out or is it somehow attached to outer door. My whole problem lies in the fact that I just don't know what runs from one component to another. I don't wish some other modeler to look at it and think "Why did he run a fuel line from the oil filter into an electrical box?" What I could I could fake and run with just may be totally bizarre to a former or current jet engine mechanic that builds model planes for a hobby. That is the dilemma. I would appreciate any id with the blobology of the kit engine. If you want to download and crib note the pics or want me to email my pics, that would be great. Some type of correllation or labeling of the real engine parts and kit blobs would help me determine that this component on real engine is this blob on resin engine and then I could look at both engines and run proper tube, wires or steel lines from like components to like component. I have quite a bit of car engines and cars experience to accomplish the detailing as long as I can look and see the labeled parts on both pictures. So Bobology has Realology counterpart type of scenario. I also need to let you know I reported this post to be moved to the Jet Modeling forum so you don't get surprized by that. So do what you can for me or let me know any thing you need in order to get this in the easiest way you think it can be conveyed. I am open to all ideas and am pretty intelligent in complex concepts even if they're explained in stick figures. I am a long winded one though. Adding a pic from instructions:

Thanks,

Jerry

Edited March 15, 2010 by nomore1959

[Firecaptain]

I am a long winded one though.

Jerry

I'm an ADD modeler so I'm just looking at the cool engine pictures....lol

[nomore1959]

I'm an ADD modeler so I'm just looking at the cool engine pictures....lol

I am new to this so what is an ADD modeler?

[aim9xray]

Jerry -

Thanks for including the scans of the instructions - now we can sync up! I'll need to do some rummaging and scanning before I can help much. In the mean time, a couple thoughts...

- First off, I'm not an engine troop, nor a former engine troop, but I did work around them and the engines. Secondly, that was a long time ago, when Hogs were green. So, I am going partially from memory and may not get it completely correct. If there are any TF34 maintainers out there, please feel free to jump in!

- Secondly, it's not too hard to figure out , it just looks confusing because of all of the visual "busyness". Hang in there!

- The inner doors have pins at their top that engage the bottom of the stub pylon, and have three (I think) latches that engage at the bottom of the door. (You can see the two dark areas on the bright aluminum bar at the bottom of the stub pylon). They are not attached to the outer doors (as on the C-141/TF33 installation). The inner doors come completely off when the latches and pins are disengaged and they end up on the ground out of the way (because you are going to have a ladder or B-4 stand under the engine).

Plumbing and lines - some general observations...

- On this engine, pressurized fuel and oil lines are metallic braided lines (like NASCAR) that have a high temp RTV orange-red coating.

- Return oil lines are silver tubing as are the lines for air pressure sensing.

- Also silver are the thermocouple leads that wrap around the hot section aft of the mount ring (almost under the exhaust fairing).

- The white harness is electrical, and the blue harness is for the Turbine Engine Monitoring System (TEMS) sensors. (If you are doing you model as the actual YA-10B that flew at Edwards, don't worry about this as this aircraft ended it's career before TEMS was retrofitted to the fleet starting in 1986.)

- The big white object on the upper left side of the engine is the oil tank. It is covered in a white RTV-like coating. To the right of it is a horizontal cylinder - this is the oil cooler and if you look just right, you can see the line going from below the cooler, forward to the tank. In actuality, the cooler is a fuel-oil heat exchanger (using the cool fuel coming in from the fuel tanks); the two lines at the right are the fuel supply and discharge lines. The discharge line wraps around the engine to the right side to the "spider".

- On the right side of the engine you can see the "spider" with all of the red lines plugged into it. This is the fuel distribution block - one line goes in and 18 go out to the combustor fuel tubes (think: fuel injectors).

- The big vertical tube is for bleed air and routes to the the air turbine starter which is mounted on the accessory gearbox. There are bellows on the piping in several places - these provide some flexibility in the line and prevent it from breaking prematurely due to metal fatigue. The is a ball valve up in the stub pylon; there is another valve at the starter (under the blue solenoid(?) controller box). You will see that the line has a tributary under the stub pylon that leads to a compressor bleed port. That is because the pneumatic system serves a dual purpose; it directs high pressure air to the engine starter, and it allows the engine to serve as a high pressure air source (when running) to start the the other engine (known as "cross bleed"). (The APU is normally used as the air pressure source to start the first engine).

How is this working for you so far?

Edit: added text and used the previously posted images.

Edited March 15, 2010 by aim9xray

[nomore1959]

Jerry -

Thanks for including the scans of the instructions - now we can sync up! I'll need to do some rummaging and scanning before I can help much. In the mean time, a couple thoughts...

- First off, I'm not an engine troop, nor a former engine troop, but I did work around them and the engines. Secondly, that was a long time ago, when Hogs were green. So, I am going partially from memory and may not get it completely correct. If there are any TF34 maintainers out there, please feel free to jump in!

- Secondly, it's not too hard to figure out , it just looks confusing because of all of the visual "busyness". Hang in there!

- The inner doors have pins at their top that engage the bottom of the stub pylon, and have three (I think) latches that engage at the bottom of the door. (You can see the two dark areas on the bright aluminum bar at the bottom of the stub pylon). They are not attached to the outer doors (as on the C-141/TF33 installation). The inner doors come completely off when the latches and pins are disengaged and they end up on the ground out of the way (because you are going to have a ladder or B-4 stand under the engine).

Plumbing and lines - some general observations...

- On this engine, pressurized fuel and oil lines are metallic braided lines (like NASCAR) that have a high temp RTV orange-red coating.

- Return oil lines are silver tubing as are the lines for air pressure sensing.

- Also silver are the thermocouple leads that wrap around the hot section aft of the mount ring (almost under the exhaust fairing).

- The white harness is electrical, and the blue harness is for the Turbine Engine Monitoring System (TEMS) sensors. (If you are doing you model as the actual YA-10B that flew at Edwards, don't worry about this as this aircraft ended it's career before TEMS was retrofitted to the fleet starting in 1986.)

- The big white object on the upper left side of the engine is the oil tank. It is covered in a white RTV-like coating. To the right of it is a horizontal cylinder - this is the oil cooler and if you look just right, you can see the line going from below the cooler, forward to the tank. In actuality, the cooler is a fuel-oil heat exchanger (using the cool fuel coming in from the fuel tanks); the two lines at the right are the fuel supply and discharge lines. The discharge line wraps around the engine to the right side to the "spider".

- On the right side of the engine you can see the "spider" with all of the red lines plugged into it. This is the fuel distribution block - one line goes in and 18 go out to the combustor fuel tubes (think: fuel injectors).

- The big vertical tube is for bleed air and routes to the the air turbine starter which is mounted on the accessory gearbox. There are bellows on the piping in several places - these provide some flexibility in the line and prevent it from breaking prematurely due to metal fatigue. The is a ball valve up in the stub pylon; there is another valve at the starter (under the blue solenoid(?) controller box). You will see that the line has a tributary under the stub pylon that leads to a compressor bleed port. That is because the pneumatic system serves a dual purpose; it directs high pressure air to the engine starter, and it allows the engine to serve as a high pressure air source (when running) to start the the other engine (known as "cross bleed"). (The APU is normally used as the air pressure source to start the first engine).

How is this working for you so far?

Edit: added text and used the previously posted images.

I edited the first photos I posted with labels of what I believe to be as you have described. You will have to check out my work and see how I am doing and correct me on any mistakes I may have made.

Here are Scans I took of the kit engine to give you a little insight as to what I'm looking at on the kit engine. I think I'm understanding things as they are on the real engine but we'll need a way of correlating to the kit and this may help. I will be offline for a few days to redo our cable and internet to get a better deal for the next coming year. So check out the scans and the photo edits. I'll get back to you in a few days. Thank you so much for your help. I am always up for learning.

Jerry

Right Side I

Right Side II

Right Side III

Right Side IV

Left Side I

Left Side II

Left Side III

Left Side IV

I am back online as we switched cable around to get better rates. I reworked the photos in Paint Shop Pro and they are a lot easier on the eyes without the blur that was around them. See what you think of them and we'll go from there.

Jerry

Edited March 20, 2010 by nomore1959

[aim9xray]

It took a little digging, but are a few diagrams that may help understand a lot of the "busyness" on the engine. The drawings are for the TF34-GE-400 as used on the S-3A/B Viking, but I''ll point out the differences as we go along.

This is an overall breakdown of the engine and should give you an idea of the basic hardware. The combustion section is rotated 90 degrees on the -100; the "A-frame" on the inboard side of the engine and is the thrust mount.

This is the compressor section. The zig-zags on the resin part are an attempt to replicate the inlet guide vane actuation arms and rings.

The Accessory Drive Gearbox wraps around the forward engine. It is steel-colored and is mostly hidden by the birdcage frame.

The accessories driven by the gearbox are mounted on the aft face. These are all cylinders of one size or another. The TF34-GE-100 gearbox as used on the A-10 does not have the "Customer Pad", the ADG extends from only the 3 to 9 o'clock positions. The Integrated Drive Generator (alternator) is painted gray and is mounted at the 6 o'clock position.

This depicts the electrical harnesses (except for the TEMS harness). The harnesses are color-coded in the diagram, but in real-life have a white teflon wrap.

The lube (oil) system.

The primary fuel system.

And additional busyness is added for the primer system.

As you can see now, some of the resin engine detail "lumps" are imaginary...

[THX1138]

Holy crap.....

Sure you didn't miss a bolt ?

[nomore1959]

OutStanding! You have definately outdid yourself and anything I have been able to find on the net on my own. Anything I attempted to search under was 3 times around the globe from getting this close to in detail. You are the man! This explains a lot about the lumpology of this kit's resin engine. Armed with this much detail info and other pics I have uncovered from different angles of approach, I have a hard time believing I can retain the lumpology mentality for building these engines. I am pretty darned good with a dremel tool and have a great eye for detail. I am just so dedicated to the A-10 as a plane that I can't see myself putting in a lump of coal as an engine. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! I will do my best to put this info to good use. I will try to figure out how to put you down as a friend and to keep you posted on my progress. I just got stitches out today from having my Spinal Cord Stimulator implant put in on the 26th. I tapped all my resources this month to buy a new computer. A $400 dollar E-machine tower that is 20 times the computer I was working with. And now you give me this great gift of info and I feel like things are coming together quite well.

Jerry

Edited April 8, 2010 by nomore1959

[Berkut]

Please, dont quote 1000 pictures.

[fasteagle12]

If you can't get all of the details you want, you can always do this battle damaged BC Hog:

http://www.a-10.org/photos/p.asp?FileName=IMG%5F0527%2EJPG

http://www.a-10.org/photos/p.asp?FileName=IMG%5F0528%2EJPG

http://www.a-10.org/photos/p.asp?FileName=IMG%5F0529%2EJPG

A lot of the details are melted or gone so you don't have to be too accurate.

[tomastewart]

Help!

Why can't I see any of the images people have posted?

Tom

...sorry...slow download tonight. They did all appear. Great stuff. Thanks to all...

Tom

Edited April 8, 2010 by tomastewart

[ventura_kelley]

If you can't get all of the details you want, you can always do this battle damaged BC Hog:

http://www.a-10.org/photos/p.asp?FileName=IMG%5F0527%2EJPG

http://www.a-10.org/photos/p.asp?FileName=IMG%5F0528%2EJPG

http://www.a-10.org/photos/p.asp?FileName=IMG%5F0529%2EJPG

A lot of the details are melted or gone so you don't have to be too accurate.

Wow!

What did they hit that with?

[nomore1959]

Berkut

Sorry for quoting the many pictures. I am new to using forums as a means of communicating. I just deleted your message from this reply to test the "no quoting unnecessary pictures" request. So if your request is not here again, than I have figured that out and will be more courteous in the future. Thank you for the heads up on forum ettiquette. Always welcome to constructive criticism. Iwent back and removed the "many quoted pictures" that Berkut referred to and am just letting everyone know that now so you know Berkut had a legitimate request at the time of his post. Thanks agin, Berkut.

Jerry

Edited April 8, 2010 by nomore1959

[fasteagle12]

Wow!

What did they hit that with?

I read that it was hit by a SAM. It's still flying. It was one of the Hogs that transfered from Battle Creek to Selfridge last year. Here's another couple of photos of the battle damage:

http://www.hawgsmoke.com/images/Aircraft/81-987/987_3.jpg

http://www.hawgsmoke.com/images/Aircraft/81-987/987_4.jpg

[nomore1959]

Hi All,

Just posting a couple of scans to show the kit engines stripped of all incorrect "lumpology". Re-detailed underlying plastic and left three items that were somewhat close and would help provide scale as a starting point. This is one engine stripped so far. I will attempt to create a more realistic looking engine appropriate to the A-10 for my kit.

Jerry

View 1

View 2

View 3

Edited April 19, 2010 by nomore1959

[Dana F]

Wow! Great references!

Thanks!

[Youngtiger1]

Jerry, I'm working on a same kit but I'm going to leave the resin junk that trumpy call engine out. I have the CE exhaust for alternative. If have it or can find one grab it. It will make a world a difference. BTW, I would love to see your WIP as well. Why don't you start a thread?

Mike

[nomore1959]

Wow! Great references!

Thanks!

I am hoping to find a cheap digital camera soon but funds are tight. These scans are all I can provide for now. Glad they are good enuff for now. I have the second engine stripped and re-working the detail. Am sort of limited to pain in neck from looking down so much. I had a spinal cord stimulator implanted at the cervical level on March 26th and looking down is the most pulling position at the surgery site. Gotten better last few days. Can get about 4 hours work total in a day. Lot of size specific pieces of wood sanding sticks made along with metal files and dremel tool diamond coated metal bits. Cheap gel super glue with accelerator works good for repairs and strengthening the largest ring as it is thin at the inner joint where it meets the main body. Looking at the engine with a bright light behind it will reveal the thin spots on these rings as well as watching from the inside forward opening to reveal the areas where it is getting thin so you can avoid cuttting or otherwise creating a hole in the side of the engine. I just want to do my part as a new member and document my progress so others will benefit. I am totally new to this extreme level of modeling and all I have ever made are 1/24 and 1/25 scale car models. I thought I was doing good on those to get a good spray can paint job. I never knew this skill level even existed for car models, let alone all the other vehicles I have encountered just on this site. So I am taking lessons from all your help as fellow modelers. Thank you all. I try to look at all the daily articles and I am just blown away by what I see from every scale size. I am on this 1/32 mission and wonder if some of you members are using nano technology and micron microscopes. I will leave it at that and say goodnight as I have shut down the hanger for the day. 2:00am.

later

Jerry

[nomore1959]

Jerry, I'm working on a same kit but I'm going to leave the resin junk that trumpy call engine out. I have the CE exhaust for alternative. If have it or can find one grab it. It will make a world a difference. BTW, I would love to see your WIP as well. Why don't you start a thread?

Mike

Don't know how to start a thread and am a little intimidated as a newbie. Just gonna go for it and learn on the fly on this build and do the best I can. I am assuming that this thread would need be only for the engine build. Any further parts of overall build can be done in the finished build article. If you can make a thread out of this engine build, then be my guest. I am planniing on leaving the clear parts clear in the areas needed to showcase the engines, while painting the exhaust pipe/cone outer fairing where it shows at the rear of the nacelle. Also painting fan rotor along with fan housing and casing. I have no experience in cutting out the panels in the clear shell to reveal detail. Also wish to not be limited to see detail that would only show through panel openings in that scenario where all clear parts are painted. Will further investigate whether or not I can get away with just painting the rear exhaust pipe/cone fairing far enough in to look right from the outside, yet far enough back to reveal detail inside with nacelle door open.

Jerry

Edited April 20, 2010 by nomore1959