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Please allow me another Trumpeter rant...


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Greetings all...

First let me preface this by saying I do not wish to beat a dead horse or become the biggest troublemaker here...but I do want to get this off my chest and maybe take away some new insight.

Ok so I'm walking through my local hobby-town usa earlier today and I'm leafing thorough the latest Fine scale modeler magazine. I come across the review on Trumpeters brand new 1/32 AV-8B Harrier. The Harrier is one of my most favorite aircraft and I eagerly read the review, but was somewhat disappointed with what I found in the review.

Ok...I'm gonna try to bottom line this right here so I dont ramble. But the whole point of my post here today is not getting value for the money. Yes I know some of you out there are already to criticize me by saying that we should be lucky that Trumpeter makes the 1/32 kits in the first place. Yes while I do agree with that...there are some things that rub me the wrong way.

Now isn't it commonly known that almost every 1/32 trumpeter aircraft kit has had some major error embedded in it. I remember the wildcat fiasco of a few years back and to their credit trumpeter recalled the kits and fixed that problem. But what I'm griping at is just that. Every kit has had issues. In this day and age of the internet and references out the wazoo you would think things like this would be diminished. I can understand a few minor errors and realize the model making process cannot be perfect...but you know what im getting at.

The thing is this...as I'm reading the Fine scale article it states that the kit does not include launch rails for the planes missiles. And also the drop tanks are totally incorrect for the airplane. Now this may seem minor to some folks but if you are being asked to pay $170.00, almost $200 dollars for these kits, one would expect a little better.

I'm sorry but Trumpeter has just lost a couple of points with me, and if this keeps up I will no longer buy their products.

At least when Academy does something...if they make a mistake they at least compromise with a decent weapons load and maybe a few nicely done crew figures.

Sorry...but that's just how I feel.

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1. There is no "perfect" kit.

2. The Harrier can be had for much less than $170.

3. Someone is not gonna care, and will buy the kit and turn it into a winner.

4. I'm sure Trump will correct the mistake in said kit.

5. Academy is still a B-lister in the model world.

6. I bought said kit, and although it does have it's deficiencies, it's good to know that there are those who know it inside and out to provide a tweak list for us non-knowing gnomes.

7. When, and if, they correct said kit, I'll buy another one.

8. The term "value for your money" resonates differently for everyone dependant on the size of the wallet.

My 2 centavos...

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The thing is this...as I'm reading the Fine scale article it states that the kit does not include launch rails for the planes missiles. And also the drop tanks are totally incorrect for the airplane. Now this may seem minor to some folks but if you are being asked to pay $170.00, almost $200 dollars for these kits, one would expect a little better.

And Tamiya put weird patches all over their F-4s, and Revell messed up the nose on their big F-4, and Academy has crappy decals, and Tamiya is charging close to 200 bucks for their F-14 with raised panel lines

Who cares? Build the damn thing.

That same article goes on to say that it is a pretty darned good kit that the builder enjoyed quite a lot if I recall.

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Actually, I think there's more wrong than what was pointed out in the FSM review.

When the kit first came out, there was a point-by-point discussion over at Large

Scale Planes. I think it was in the "LSP Discussion" sub-forum there. I'm not terribly

interested in the Harrier, but I read all the comments, as the discussion was one

of the best "Trumpeter Made Mistakes" discussions I have seen to date.

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Please allow me another Trumpeter rant
Another poorly chosen title. (IMHO)

You probably would have been better off posting a "Trumpeter Harrier" thread in the jet section rather than 'picking on' Trumpeter here in GD.

So I gather that you didn't purchase the kit?

That's one way to send them a message.

Or, as mentioned, the kit can be found for much less than MSRP.

Here's Dave Roof's excellent review on LSP: http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=26854

I didn't re-read the review but I think he mentioned that he was working on some aftermarket pylons for the kit.

:thumbsup:

P.S. EVERYBODY, Rather than having another drawn out argument over Trumpeter and accuracy and rivet counting and looks good enough, please just let this thread fade away...

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Real Modelers turn a sows ear into a silk purse...and beat out shake n bake kits where it counts...on the contest table!

Plastic scale models have and always will be representations of a subject, albeit some better than others. They also are from a subdivision of the Toy Industry, not the Aircraft Manufacturing Industry...if they were, you couldn't afford them. That $170 kit would cost you $170,000.00 or more!

If you're tired of disappointing plastic model kit quality, forgo the plastic and build a real 1:1 scale aircraft...there are plenty of kits available and best yet many can be flown without a pilots license. This might be the year I seriously look at them while at AirVenture.

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I recently picked up a 1/32 Trump Daunltess for $49. The LHS was having a sale.

Wow - this kit is gorgeous. The cockpit is loaded with detail. I can tell you that for the MSRP, I would never have bought the kit but for $50? Its an amazing model.

Accuracy aside - I know I am going to love building it!

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Can I ask an honest question - before the internet did the mags, the clubs, IPMS journal etc hammer on the manufacturers like we do today?

It seems that the quality of kits is so far superior to even ten years ago (let alone 20 or 30 when I started building), but our expectations of a kit are twice or more than that. I realize the prices are skyrocketing too, but hey, whats not.

I understand why some will rivet count or nit pick, but it just seems to be way over the top now. Can we just be happy we actually have a 1/32 AV-8B or options on a 1/32 F-14. I remember not so long ago that 1/32 kits were a) almost unheard of and :taunt: if they existed, hollow shells of an airframe and the detail had to be built by the modeler (case in point, the Tamiya 1/32 Tomcat that STILL comes with decals for its cockpit instruments).

I guess I am just thrilled we have 1/32 F-100's or 105's, F-14D's and Daunlesses etc.

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Can I ask an honest question - before the internet did the mags, the clubs, IPMS journal etc hammer on the manufacturers like we do today?

Short answer, yes. I have a detail and scale book of the f-14 and it HAMMERS the Italeri kit. Basically calls it a toy. That book came out before the internet, or at least before it was big.

I don't think critical reviews are something new, it's just they are more readily availabe so people can read it and say "Shut up and build the model" which to me serves ZERO purpose in a model discussion forum. But that's just me. But by all means, jump on the guy for his opinion and crucify him. Heck, burn him at the stake if you feel you must. He did afterall discuss his negative opinion about a model in a model discussion forum. Clearly he's not right in the head! :taunt:

Bill

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You know I dont really understand all the Flak...

I thought a forum was a place to convey ideas and thoughts...but nevermind that.

I will build the Harrier, as I said its a favorite subject of mine. My point on this matter is that if you pay for 4 apples you should get 4 apples and not 3 and a half. If you are paying over 100 dollars for a kit they should have included all parts to the thing including something as major as missile launch rails. Id rather have the necessary parts already in the box than having to go rob another kit or scratchbuild them to have a completed model.

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Well, there are a lot of factors at play here

Not least of which is the perspective that we all have on the hobby. The reasons we do it.

Trumpeter has a number of issues for and against it as a supplier of kits.

Research difficulties - Either through inability to access the real thing or pay someone to do it for them.

Manufacturing errors/compromises

Distributor network

The Dollar

For myself, I would e very happy to buy most of the A/C kits that Trumpeter puts out(warts and bumps included) but I would be much happier if they were more reasonable. You cant please everyone though and for everyone like me who does not need a detailed engine, there are modellers who want that. So what do they cut back on to reduce costs yet satisfy the broadest range of customers?

Now some folks wont buy a kit if it has any shape issues and they could care less about the price. The shape is the start and the finish. Goodenoughers like me will consider a kit based on price/accuracy/fun for me factors. I've said it over and over, The B-58, Viggen, etc aren't perfect, but if I want XX kit in a given scale what are my choices?

Nothing wrong with pointing out issues. It's the extra"stuff" that gets added in.

The Factory doing the ROG 1/32 Typhoon doesn't get slated because of the country it is in. Hopefully ROG works with them and sorts out the Q/C issues. Or maybe it was a first batch issue. The issues with the kit either Q/C related are discussed and it is/was left at that.

Trumpy will get better. Just a matter of time.

From what I understand Trumpeter has made a great 1/24th Hurricane. So they can do it. The proof is there.

Edit As for the lack of rails, bizarre stuff. Then again around here you can pay over$100 for a F/A-18C in 1/48th with no weapons. Then you can buy the weapons separately for XX dollars. Do I point the finger at Hase completely? Somewhat. The distributor/dollar costs do not make it an easy lump to swallow. Not when those items are available over seas for cheaper. And again, importers do not bring in just one of an item. Shipping becomes minimal spread over the entire shipment.

Edited by Av8fan
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I don't think this is an issue of modeling skills. I think the point being made is that with the proliferation of specification data out there (as well as the use of CAD design and CAD control milling lathes) the tools and references are there to produce models with accurate outlines and features. Surely the world can't be lacking in reference data that would enable a model company to accurately reproduce this airplane in miniature? Does it?

For example: Let's take the gloried P-51 Mustang. How many attempts at 1/32nd scale P-51D's have we seen? It seems every single one has a flaw in outline or detail representation? Look at Trumpeter's P-51B and the exhaust misalignment engineered into the kit. Yes, a savvy modeler can make corrections. Sure a modeler with deep pockets can buy another $100 worth of parts to correct the "mistakes". But let's be honest, folks. Shouldn't there at least be an expectation of a higher level of model kit production craftsmanship in this day and age? I don't mind buying after-market do-dad's to add greater detail or a few extras, but it doesn't say much about the crafstmanship of the original mold makers if one has to spend an inordinate amount of money to correct things that are glaringly wrong. There are just too many references out there for model manufacturers to take advantage of so they CAN get it "right".

Are we spoiled with all the high tech kits? Maybe. But, let's not compare the kits of today with the ones where grandpa opened a kit box only to find a log and a wood chisel with only hand drawing of an airplane to go by. Let's also not flame a guy for coming on an open forum and providing his honest impression of a kit he just spent mucho bucks on while supporting his LHS!. He was disappointed. He expressed his opinion. When others buy the kit, then they can give a review and either support his findings or offer a dissenting opinion.

In the end, the reality is that modelers can speak with their pocketbooks. That's why I don't run out and buy a model when it hits the street. I wait until others who can't wait snap it up and provide their feedback. It's also why I only have four Trumpeter kits in my stash.

Stew

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I don't think this is an issue of modeling skills. I think the point being made is that with the proliferation of specification data out there (as well as the use of CAD design and CAD control milling lathes) the tools and references are there to produce models with accurate outlines and features. Surely the world can't be lacking in reference data that would enable a model company to accurately reproduce this airplane in miniature? Does it?

For example: Let's take the gloried P-51 Mustang. How many attempts at 1/32nd scale P-51D's have we seen? It seems every single one has a flaw in outline or detail representation? Look at Trumpeter's P-51B and the exhaust misalignment engineered into the kit. Yes, a savvy modeler can make corrections. Sure a modeler with deep pockets can buy another $100 worth of parts to correct the "mistakes". But let's be honest, folks. Shouldn't there at least be an expectation of a higher level of model kit production craftsmanship in this day and age? I don't mind buying after-market do-dad's to add greater detail or a few extras, but it doesn't say much about the crafstmanship of the original mold makers if one has to spend an inordinate amount of money to correct things that are glaringly wrong. There are just too many references out there for model manufacturers to take advantage of so they CAN get it "right".

Are we spoiled with all the high tech kits? Maybe. But, let's not compare the kits of today with the ones where grandpa opened a kit box only to find a log and a wood chisel with only hand drawing of an airplane to go by. Let's also not flame a guy for coming on an open forum and providing his honest impression of a kit he just spent mucho bucks on while supporting his LHS!. He was disappointed. He expressed his opinion. When others buy the kit, then they can give a review and either support his findings or offer a dissenting opinion.

In the end, the reality is that modelers can speak with their pocketbooks. That's why I don't run out and buy a model when it hits the street. I wait until others who can't wait snap it up and provide their feedback. It's also why I only have four Trumpeter kits in my stash.

Stew

Word of CenTex

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Short answer, yes. I have a detail and scale book of the f-14 and it HAMMERS the Italeri kit. Basically calls it a toy. That book came out before the internet, or at least before it was big.

I don't think critical reviews are something new, it's just they are more readily availabe so people can read it and say "Shut up and build the model" which to me serves ZERO purpose in a model discussion forum. But that's just me. But by all means, jump on the guy for his opinion and crucify him. Heck, burn him at the stake if you feel you must. He did afterall discuss his negative opinion about a model in a model discussion forum. Clearly he's not right in the head! :worship:

Bill

Amen!!!!!

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I also don't give two hoots and a holler what manufacture or company it is, if the kit costs $170.00 or something of that nature, I think its perfectly right to expect a kit to be dang near perfect! A kit costing $25 bucks, you should expect some flaws and you deal with them because you want to build it.

This is a forum, right? So, what's the hassle of "hammering" or "praising" a kit? That's the purpose of this whole site! Get off your high horses and don't be a horse's a*s*s! Show some courteousy and respect for Pete's sake! Like my Mom always said to me, "If you don't have something nice to say, then don't say anything at all!". If you don't agree, fine, do it respectfully! Is that asking too much? This goes for Rivet Counters to Average Joes! C'mon guys! This is a hobby, not life or death!

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I am not a good modeler. Hell I can barely even be called a modeler. I love throwing two pieces of plastic together, painting them to the best of my abilities, learning a ton of history along the way and most importantly having a good time.

For me, that means that most of the kits I buy are going to be darn near perfect. They are going to require very little filler, they are going to have recessed panel lines, and they are going to have really good detail.

This often means that I only buy Tamiya, Hasegawa, and some Revell kits. I also don't want to put in any work trying to correct the shape or detail if I don't have to.

Reviews like this certainly have helped me especially since I don't have a lot of money. When I am looking to buy a kit, I google the review and see what kind of flaws it has. If they are significant I do not buy it.

I really appreciate your review Jon and will not be buying this kit or many other Trumpeter kits from what I have heard.

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I'm sorry but Trumpeter has just lost a couple of points with me, and if this keeps up I will no longer buy their products.

After I of course, ...buy this one!!!! :worship:

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I understand the point of view of most of the other people here. Im not saying dont buy the kit if you really want it AND can afford it AND can either fix or live with its errors....

Im just tired of being Gyped by a suit.

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With their previous track record I won't buy a Trumpeter kit unless I've seen it discussed in the forums.

It's good that the FSM article actually mentioned the problems unlike so many online "reviews" that just look at the number of parts and whether the molding quality looks good.

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In this day and age of the internet and references out the wazoo you would think things like this would be diminished. I can understand a few minor errors and realize the model making process cannot be perfect...but you know what im getting at.

This is a common point of argument when these Trumpeter rants flare up. There is a basic problem, however. China is not a free country. Internet access is limited and the content they can see is heavily edited. Most forums are blocked. The books we take for granted are probably not as readily available at the LHS in Beijing, let alone published in Mandarin. If I'm the leader of a Communist government I'm probably going to seriously limit my citizen's access to any other country's military hardware. Please know that I'm not saying any of this to start a political thing! My point is it's probably a lot harder for Trumpeter to get access to reference information than any other model manufacturer. Does that mean they should stop? Not IMHO.

What bugs me a lot more about their kits (in a value for money argument) than these accuracy issues is the overall kit engineering issues so many of them have. For the prices being charged, most other brands on the market have much better fit.

Then there's the last part of the pricing argument. Trumpeter doesn't really set these prices! All you have to do is order a kit from Ericyy to know that the kits are way cheaper in China than they are anywhere else. These products go through importing fees before they make it into the hands of the distributers in each country who then mark them up before selling them to the LHS who still have to turn a profit on the things. There are probably half a dozen 'middle-men' in some cases between Trumpeter and the consumer, all making their chunk of change.

Two cents.

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