Do YOU want a Kit Review section ?

[JeskiM]

In light of another thread closure around a touchy topic....

Do you want a Kit Review section.

My idea was to have 2 types of reviews section:

1: General Review : not very deep or techincal, just what's in the box, price comaprisons, weapons assortment, degree of difficulty and versions that could be made without too much effort

2: Rivet Review : Much more detailed, techincal stuff about the real subject vs. the kit : like panel lines, quality of mold, exact likelness to the real thing, etc....in short the stuff that could be subject to flame wars....but mostly for those who want a far deeper place to look for info.

- Matt

[GreyGhost]

If people maintain a good decorum then i really don't see a problem with a Review Section ...

After all, Video Game sites have review sections and for the most part, the readership on those sites is much less mature than here ...

Gregg

[Julien (UK)]

I voted no purley on the grounds of how these things can de-generate into flame wars.

We get very little of that here and thats why I choose to come here and not some of the other forums.

Julien

[Kalashnikov-47]

I voted NO. The reason being that these discussions can be on-topic in

the JETS and PROPS sections respectively.

As I post this, here is a good case in point. This is a good discussion, and

hopefully the thread won't go bad:

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....howtopic=205800

[crazydon]

I voted yes but here's my idea how you do it.

Set the posts so after the initial review post is done make the post read only. This gives the reviewer the chance to do a honest appraisal of a kit but not have the thread develop into a flame war.

Set the rules as such....

Reviewer has to provide proof of any faults.

Reviewer has to use their own picture hosting site

Reviewer can tactfully "tell it like it is"

[WymanV]

I'll agree with everything the crazy man from Cincinnati said. I would only add that if there are multiple reviews of the same kit the posts could be merged. It wouldn't be much different than the pinned threads on a subject that's already being done.

Ken

[Matt Roberts]

How would we determine whos review gets in - or more likely who'd moderate the forum?

I'm just thinking back to the Kinetic Wars.....what would have happened if Mike V and myself submited reviews on the F-16AM considering we were on opposite sides of No Mans Land regarding these kits. Is my approach regarding accuracy any less valid than Mikes? Mine would be more likely an out of the box style review and his would be a rivet counter review. Is one allowed to post a second review after the first or would those degenerate into attacking the previous review, as we sometimes see when refering to magazine reviews like those in Fine Scale.

I don't want a flame war over this but how do we determine whose reviews get posted?

I would think this forum would need to be tightly moderated (or maybe even edited?) to keep personal slights and flame wars from flaring up like a an unwanted hemorrhoid

Matt

Is there ever such a thing as a WANTED hemorrhoid?

Edited March 19, 2010 by Matt Roberts

[Eastern]

I wote "yes". I see no possible problem to arise while reviewing this or that kit. Why "flame wars"?

Just take so-and-so kit, compare it with authentic drawings and photos and then judge how the model shapes correlates with that of the real thing. Or what flaws are being revealed while building, although such recearch each one shows in his in-progress thread. Never judge in-question kit wheather it good or not, just assess it objectively. That's it.

BTW, following a few "kit review" threads on Jet Modeling and Helicopter Modeling Forums, I didn't find any shade of a "flame war".

So I don't think the new section would be a kinda battlefield.

Cheers!

Alexander.

;)

[speedlimit]

yes

Eric

[Dave Williams]

I voted no for a couple of reasons. First, I'm generally against segregating people into two different groups. That just reinforces the belief that people can't get along, so they have to be kept apart. Second, where is the dividing line? Who decides which "group" a review belongs in? What is the perceived need for two different review sections? There are already reviews available from the ARC main page, as well as other notable modeling sites on the web. I'm not aware that any of the other big sites has separate review sections, so why does ARC need one? What's wrong with what we have now?

I think there is a fallacy that some of the threads that go bad are "reviews", or that they are really discussions about accuracy. Many of the threads in question aren't what I would consider a kit review. Most of them just deal with people arguing about a few aspect of a kit (or a company), and don't provide the overall view of the kit, pros and cons, that most people are looking for in a typical review. And the discussions about accuracy that go bad are not really discussions about accuracy. They are more often discussions about the importance of accuracy to individuals. When people use pictures or drawings to point out errors in kits (I believe they are known as nitpickers to some) and someone says "it looks like X to me", or "I'm just glad to have a kit of X", they aren't saying that the "nitpickers" are wrong in saying that a kit is inaccurate in a particular area. Their point is that the nits aren't important to them. That's a valid point, but it has nothing to do with whether a kit is accurate or not.

Creating these two review forums aren't going to stop people from expressing these two points of view, nor will it force all of these types of discussions into these two new rooms. A lot of these threads don't really start out as a review, so no one will start them there. For example, the Trumpeter rant thread most likely wouldn't have been started in a review section. The OP was about reading a review in FSM that pointed out that the kit didn't have launch rails and the drop tanks were wrong, and the opinion that it was disappointing that a kit that expensive had errors. To me, that isn't a review, nor is anything really in that thread what I would actually consider a review of the Harrier kit. That type of discussion is still going to happen in GD, props, jets, etc. If the intention is to take these discussions elsewhere, I don't think it will work.

My feeling is that the solution (although I'm not sure there is really a problem) is simply for people to get along. Accept the opposing viewpoint and move along. I think the vast majority of people here are mature enough to have these discussions without having any hard feelings. However, a few seem to disagree. Honestly, I think a hidden driver behind talk of segregating groups is a desire for a few people to not have to see comments from the "other" group. I feel that's a poor reason for making changes. Personally, I'd like to see more effort for acceptance instead of efforts to keep people apart, but maybe that's just a dream.

I don't think having a review section will hurt anything, but I don't think it will change things much from what we have now. Plus the search feature is kind of wonky in the forums. Reviews are easier to find from the ARC home page IMHO.

Edited March 19, 2010 by Dave Williams

[Zactoman]

I'm not voting...

I prefer to be able to discuss jet models in the jet modeling forum.

I wouldn't mind if there were a separate 'Review section' where the results of discussions and personal experience with kits is posted.

I'd prefer that the information is only posted after the pros/cons have been generally agreed upon and not while people are still deciding whether the tail is too short, the intakes are the wrong shape, the canopy is too flat, etc.

Let these issues be hashed out in the regular forums.

I think it would be more valuable to somebody interested in finding a review if the pros/cons were already decided and summarized...

;)

Edit: And what Dave said ^

Edited March 19, 2010 by Zactoman

[crazydon]

I'll agree with everything the crazy man from Cincinnati said. I would only add that if there are multiple reviews of the same kit the posts could be merged. It wouldn't be much different than the pinned threads on a subject that's already being done.

Ken

Good idea. And with the search feature if a review post goes to far back you search for it

How would we determine whos review gets in - or more likely who'd moderate the forum?

I would think this forum would need to be tightly moderated (or maybe even edited?) to keep personal slights and flame wars from flaring up like a an unwanted hemorrhoid

Matt

Is there ever such a thing as a WANTED hemorrhoid?

2 ways you could do this.

One is have the current mods do the editing for personal insults. This might cause playing of favorites though.

2nd way is have a sub group of moderators who would only editing rights to any posts that forum only. They would apply on a subforum within said forum and be approved by those who want to use that forum for reviews.

Myself, I would trust someone like Ken (Wyman V) to edit any reviews I submitted and given my rep I'm sure others would feel the same if I were a "review mod".

If a review forum mod did have to edit anything there would be a record there on the post....and I would state my reasons if I had too.

Everyone would be able to post a review if they wanted too. That's 1 reason I suggest having to use your own picture hosting sites.

Trouble with current review sites is either they only accept reviews from some people or have continued reviews of the same kit by the same person.

Another rule I think would help is we treat the review forum like a IPMS OOB contest table. You use what's in the box expect decals and seat belts. I hate it when people take a new kit and avoid problems that kit has by using aftermarket pits and the like....tell it like it is (Eduard 1/32nd Emil comes too mind here)

Edited March 19, 2010 by crazydon

[Wayne S]

Would rather have a review that is done in a forum, seen in their respective area, aka Jets,props etc. Making another area to search in, just adds more headaches IMO.

Edited March 19, 2010 by Wayne S

[Dave Williams]

How would we determine whos review gets in - or more likely who'd moderate the forum?

I'm just thinking back to the Kinetic Wars.....what would have happened if Mike V and myself submited reviews on the F-16AM considering we were on opposite sides of No Mans Land regarding these kits. Is my approach regarding accuracy any less valid than Mikes? Mine would be more likely an out of the box style review and his would be a rivet counter review. Is one allowed to post a second review after the first or would those degenerate into attacking the previous review, as we sometimes see when refering to magazine reviews like those in Fine Scale.

I don't want a flame war over this but how do we determine whose reviews get posted?

I would think this forum would need to be tightly moderated (or maybe even edited?) to keep personal slights and flame wars from flaring up like a an unwanted hemorrhoid

Matt

Is there ever such a thing as a WANTED hemorrhoid?

Good idea. And with the search feature if a review post goes to far back you search for it

2 ways you could do this.

One is have the current mods do the editing for personal insults. This might cause playing of favorites though.

2nd way is have a sub group of moderators who would only editing rights to any posts that forum only. They would apply on a subforum within said forum and be approved by those who want to use that forum for reviews.

Myself, I would trust someone like Ken (Wyman V) to edit any reviews I submitted and given my rep I'm sure others would feel the same if I were a "review mod".

If a review forum mod did have to edit anything there would be a record there on the post....and I would state my reasons if I had too.

Not sure I see the difference between moderating the review forum and the regular forums? I would think that we expect the mods to keep flame wars from getting out of hand in any of the forums, so I'm not sure of the need for special review moderators. Personally, I would not want to let anyone edit any review that I did. If that occurs, it's no longer my words or review. If a review I do is inappropriate, then either delete it, or talk to me about it. But don't go in behind me and change what I wrote.

[gotarheelz14]

ABSOLUTELY. I go to hyperscale and cybermodeler all the time simply for this. It's about time we have our own kit review section.

[ventura_kelley]

In light of another thread closure around a touchy topic....

Do you want a Kit Review section.

My idea was to have 2 types of reviews section:

1: General Review : not very deep or techincal, just what's in the box, price comaprisons, weapons assortment, degree of difficulty and versions that could be made without too much effort

2: Rivet Review : Much more detailed, techincal stuff about the real subject vs. the kit : like panel lines, quality of mold, exact likelness to the real thing, etc....in short the stuff that could be subject to flame wars....but mostly for those who want a far deeper place to look for info.

- Matt

Excellent idea.

The reviews on other sites have gotten soft, like they're trying to appease advertisers or something.

I've bought 4 kits recently and have been extremely unhappy with the reviewer overlooked flaws that I couldn't solve or live with.

That's money (a lot of money actually) that I could've spent buying products I would have liked from companies that frankly need the support more than those other ones obviously do.

But I like the other post suggesting that the flaws be documented/photographed. That way I can judge for myself whether they're something I can live with or not.

And I agree with the no flaming thing.

[Ro-Gar Hobbies]

I voted NO, there is a reveiw section already on ARC Air why do we need another new section in the forums?

Robert

[ChernayaAkula]

I voted No. It should be possible to discuss models anywhere on a model discussion board.

[Rick in Maine]

I voted "no."

There are plenty of review sources now, here and elsewhere.

On ARC, a search gives me a darn good idea about any kit I might consider. Because of the problems we've had on ARC in the past, I see a separate Review Forum as an almost certain location for frequent flame wars.

Now, if somebody wanted to launch a search engine that looks for reviews on a specific collection of modeling web sites, I'd give that a "yes" vote in a hurry.

Rick in Maine

[F106A]

I think a simple post from folks asking, "Hey, what does anyone know about kit 'X'?" usually does the trick.

Mark

[Lock n' Load]

I voted no.... i don't want to sound down with ARC, but there are other pages entirely dedicated to kit reviews like Cybermodeler for starters, and it's as easy to type ''XXXXXXX XXXX X/XX review'' on Google and many entries will appear.

[niart17]

I voted yes.

Ok, here are my thoughts on the matter, not that anyone should care, but I was fairly vocal about it in the other thread so I should at least explain my position. I guess in my mind I'm thinking different than what some of you guys are.

I don't know if "review" is the term I would necessarily use. As some of you have stated, that can be found on the ARC main page and at countless number of other sites. The difference is that with a traditional review, you can't get or give feedback. You can't question what their sources are. You just have to read it and try to assume they either do or don't know what they are talking about. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it does make it hard to really get to know about the model in question. I'm thinking more of section that combines all of the threads that contain an exchange of thoughts on the merits of model kits. An OPEN discussion about what some observe and like and or dislike about the subject. Somewhere where people (it doesn't even have to be ONE reviewer, multiple people can discuss....really) people can post up pics of sprue shots, preliminary shots, open box shot, what's in the kit, how does it look to them? Can you compare it to a profile of the real plane? Where you can ask them why they feel the nose is too short or why there should only be 6 wings and not the 8 included in the kit, whatever. Even manufacturers that choose to can post their prelims or test shots and get feedback such as just happened this week in the jet forum I believe. It would be like a critique section for them as well. It seems to be ok for the builders, no-one has died in that section yet.

I'm sure there will be some wrong answers in there and someone may step in and say, sorry but you're wrong about that ejection seat. It SHOULD have the cup holder on the right side just like the manufacturer put it. Will some people be jerks and post in all irrate and call someone an idiot or a rivet counter or a (kitmakerofyourchoice)lover or hater or something else? Probably. That happens now all the time anyway. It should be reported just like any other exchange that gets personal.

So what would be different than it is now you may ask. Well for one thing it would be much easier to find a thread dealing with the potential shape issues of Revetrumpafixagawajiminetics new Q-170 kit without having to dig through countless other threads. Or what's in the box or not in the box. (a lot of the time people may not realize there are alternate parts not listed unless someone can chime in and say, yea part 38 is for the 'g' model) For another thing it would be easier for the people who couldn't care less about such details avoid getting sucked in to a place they really don't want to be or hear about such things again. You almost always see two things written in some of these "review" threads that happen now. One thing is "It's just a model, build it" and "Oh great, another I hate this company thread". The way it is now, these poor people innocently wander around and find themselves in an uncomfortable place and desperately don't want to read what's there. This would make it much safer for them as well. Don't want to know what Bubba finds wrong with this kit? Don't go to the review section.

It really is possible to discuss such intricate details of models in a civilized manner. You can have standing rules for the section. You can't get personal or take it personal. If you get called on something and can prove your point fine, but don't get angry at someone saying you're wrong. Just make your case and they'll make theirs and so be it. That's what discussion is. As long as people keep their heads on and report the bozos chiming in just to rouse up people or start getting personal, it can work. Like I said, WE ALREADY HAVE THESE threads. It would just be cleaner to have them in a section and may even prevent turf wars from starting. We've lost people through years I've been here and it's usually because of the wars like these threads when someone said "who cares?" or "why not build the model before you tear it apart?". The threads aren't going to stop happening. Someone is going to post a sprue shot or something and someone is going to call it bad. And some will agree some will disagree. It is going to happen I gaurantee it. At least this way, it can be contained.

Well that's my book on the subject. I'm sure many will disagree IF you've made it this far in my rambling. I just see a possiblity of a really really useful section about models. Discussions about models.

Bill

[thegoodsgt]

I voted No. ARC is an incredible resource but there are almost too many areas to browse or to navigate to find the information I need. Posting reviews within the areas we have today will be sufficient. No need to over-engineer a solution.

And there's already a review section for folks who want to write and submit reviews.

http://www.arcair.com/rev.htm

Edited March 20, 2010 by thegoodsgt

[mingwin]

i voted yes

i second niart17 (bill)

most review pages i've seen are static... with no interactions.

[HOLMES]

I voted NO too.I agree with Robert.