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Guys, its been said over and over again. Rules are rules. Contestants should read the rules of every contest. We go by the rules for the catergories. Now, if the judges break the rules, then you've got a reasonable right to complain. If the rules were followed, what can one say? Most contests are based on IPMS rules. Read the rules! Most contests post rules in advance, again, read the rules!

It was also said, by those who judge or have judged, basics come first. After basics, then you can get to detail and difficulties. The main point is the "basics". Are the "basics" met? Craftsmanship, fit, finish, decals. You have to have basics to go by. If there were no basics, then what would you go by?

It is a competition. Know and follow the rules. Someone wins and someone loses. If you win, great. If you lose, move on and better luck next time. The point of competing is suppose to be for the fun of it. If you're not having fun, don't compete anymore and build for your own enjoyment. In the end, isn't the enjoyment suppose to be what it's all about?

Edited by Big Texan
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Gentleman, and those who shall not be named who do not use grammar ( Let's all call them Buzz Killington )

This reminds me of when You take oh lets say a nice, understated 911 to the track and dudes show up with a 88 CRX, nay I should say a totally pimped out 3... count them 3 tones of primer CRX and go on this rant... "no mang my car is soo much fastah dan you dawg..I has like da rims and da big mufflah"...you look at the times posted, and see that you are indeed many seconds faster. They rebuttal with "no mang its like got stickers so I's gots mo horespowers and is faster dan you bes." I fail to see the logic pattern that has apparently crept into modeling. I am still trying to find the "WOW FACTOR" criteria in the IPMS jugging rules...Can anyone help me find it. I swear it's like like trying to find Waldo at a where's Waldo convention... Of course in saying this anyone who knows me or doesn't should go ahead and discount my observations and opinions. Everyone needs to grow up and learn from their mistakes and try harder next time. I've been graced to know some of the most humble and ironically the best modelers in the game. Funny how they seem to go hand in hand. I'l tell ya what, they do not win all the time, and this is probably what gives them the grace when they do. What's with all the fun snippery? Can't we all just get along? No? Oh well if only this was a utopia, we all could get a shiny trophy for our efforts and money spent. I'd like a trophy for the Airplanes I haven't even entered, cuz damn it, I put all kinds of crap on 'em... stuff that doesn't even go on em... they are that awesome I swear... just ask my mom! Ok Ok OK... I gotta get back to work.... you all should too, nobody likes overdone fries..Ohh and gimme a #3 with Cheese... to go with your Wine.....

Smoke out'

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I will take a #1 with a large Coke.....oh...oh can I get one of those lil apple pies?

-Jim

Oh, other than the master of disaster, Mr. Willie at Stallion....can all you nubes at least sign your post...would be nice to know you next time I go to a show and get to meet ya....want to see YOUR work. Lib Also Out!

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OMG! Just read some of the posts. Thanks Willie for the call? Are there really some people that are this ignorant? I actually think we should get the mods to change this to the Darwin Awards thread...

I have entered contests. I LOVE THEM. I win...I lose. Sometimes I do not understand, but who the freak cares!! Do you know how many tips I have gotten from the winners....do you know how many of those tips have paid off at other contests.....THATS what I am in it for. To get my daughters to be turned on to the "ART" we do. Thank GOD, they do not meet people who pitch baby fits cause there model didnt win.....

BTW, the dearly LOVE Greg! Each has seen his model room. Some with awards and some without...they go crazy about flying, because of that room. Listen, for the sake of the modeling community. If you are so hung up on the WOW(WTH is that?) factor...stay home...have your own model contest, compete with your own friends and stop making folks get a bad impression with the modeling world. It is bad enough with the increase of prices and the decrease of folks that have their heart in it, as much as we do.

IPMS contest......=.......IPMS Rules.....just the way it is.

I am headed to the garage to fetch my hammer.....I need a couple of smacks in the head....

-Jim

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This is the model that won. I built it. I am not sorry it won. It had no competition from any thing that sore loser brought to the table. And it should fair the same under any competition judging rules.

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Cool Mig...

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Can everybody quit getting personal and stick to the topic of judging OOB vs. a detailed model & the importance of covering the basics?

If I'm reading your post correctly then you pose a fascinating scenario. First we assume: "quality is exactly the same as far as fit and finish".

So far, everybody has posed a OOB kit vs. a Detailer's scratchbuild and/or aftermarket equipped model. In that scenario, IF "quality is exactly the same as far as fit and finish" then the Detailer's build wins because he covered the basics AND he went the extra mile.

In your example, "1 has the cargo ramp and doors open, rotors extended". I'm assuming a detailed cargo bay but the rotors are in their normal position of being extended for flight. (As most kits come.)

"the other all buttoned up and folded up". I'll assume every door and panel is closed but the rotors are folded, heck, we'll even fold the tail.

These situations are hard to judge because both modelers covered the basics. Both models pass the "Honey, I shrunk the CH-53 test" but only one can win first. What makes it hard is that in detailing, comparing a cargo ramp & bay to a folded rotor and tail boom is like comparing apples & oranges. Does a scratch-built swash plate with cyclic controls equate to a scratch-built cargo bay wench? The answer is subjective and this is where the quality of judging becomes subjective.

Fact is, there are many high quality models showing up at contests these days and sometimes it's very hard to pick one that is "best". Sometimes the quality of the final two, three or four is so good that you have to get nitpicky. We have no choice. We can't have 3 models in first place. I doubt anybody wants a model contest to become equivalent to a kindergarten game where "Everybody is a winner!"

As a former and future judge, I've judged many different categories: ships, planes, tanks, cars, but in the end, there are only two types of model contests: A Battle of the Flaws, where you count how many flaws the models have and the one with the fewest points wins. (Like golf.) Then there are Battles of the Perfect: where the models are to such a high standard that everybody is wondering why we're taking an hour to judge one category. In the end, the judges end up desperate to find something to nick one of the entries on and are forced to get nitpicky. Of course, the result of getting nitpicky is singed feelings. There's nothing we can do about that.

*Note: The term "perfect" is used to define a model with no easily detected flaws in the time allotted.

*Note: I don't know if a CH-53 has a wench in the cargo bay or not. That was just an example.

*Note: I did not judge in Cocoa Beach and I'm not familiar with the controversy about 1/48 jets. I've only read about it here.

*Note: Every time I've judged, there has been no such thing as "WOW Factor". It doesn't exist. Once you start looking at a model closeup any "WOW" that you saw when you first arrived (Usually hours ago.) melts away. It's not our job to judge "WOW". It's our job to judge craftsmanship.

well the thing is (as i don't know if you have seen the kit) the academy kit has a full interior cabin, troop seats, the options for folding the tail, rotors and positionable doors and windows. it wouldn't be any extra detailing, it would be nothing more than the kit parts in my hypothetical .

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Here is the basic flaw with our hobby contest judging.

There are no degrees of dificulty

I find it unfair and punishes the person who goes the extra mile. I will never enter a plastic modeling contest with the current judging rules.

Just because the rules are the way they are is not why I enter my models. I enter them to suport the show and the club putting on the show. I like see other modelers and their builds. Modelers should not be affriad to join in the show. They should join to learn. Like said before you never stop learning when it comes to model build of any kind.

Frank

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...I once had an F-16 that was second to a Mirage (with obvious wing root issues IMHO). Did I agree with that? No way, but I sucked it up and congratulated the winner. I asked the judges what was wrong with my model and they commented that my finish was a little too glossy. I asked about the Mirage and was told that it was a much more difficult kit with a difficult paint job and that it was hard to distinguish one build from the other. So, in this case degree of difficulty and the balls to build a jet with French markings stole the day.

Hmmm, I have a little difficulty with this. If as seems to be the consensus here, judging is based on “Getting the basics right firstâ€, then obvious wing root problems would only be overlooked (for lack of a better word), if your kit had obvious “Basic†flaws as well. Personally “a little too glossy†would be less of a basic error than wing root fit. Secondly, (just to get in on the hubbub!), wouldn’t the comment… “A much more difficult kitâ€, be purely subjective? I mean difficult how? Poorly made, nothing fits or lots of parts to attach, or the kit comes with finicky aftermarket stuff, etc, etc. Complexity of the paint job should be secondary to the quality of the paint job, so if it’s true that judges look for the basics first and all the basics are covered, then and only then should complexity come into play?

That just leaves me with another question.

If the winning Mig that started all this is/was perfect, then would an exact duplicate decked out with armament, open panels with fuses and wiring, maybe flashing beacons and marker lights - but had a seam clearly visible on the underside - lose to the plain old perfect Mig?

Personal, I don’t think it should. But I understand why it did. They don’t add marks for good, they deduct for bad.

Edited by Miccara
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If the winning Mig that started all this is/was perfect, then would an exact duplicate decked out with armament, open panels with fuses and wiring, maybe flashing beacons and marker lights - but had a seam clearly visible on the underside - lose to the perfect Mig?

Though your question may have been rhetorical, I'd answer with a yes it should lose to the perfect mig. It's all about decisions. Just because one decided to take on more work and add features doesn't excuse the basics. If you let it slide with a "simple" seam then it becomes too subjective as to where you stop. What about a 1/4" wide seam? What about wings that are warped with a 1/16" drop? A 1/8" drop? It then becomes a guessing game and a matter of what one person likes over another. That's when it becomes unfair.

An interesting side note to this is "flaws that are visable" are what counts against you. I've talked to a few armor guys that have built some absolute gems of award winning tanks and many of them say that one reason they like armor besides the cool factor is in competition it can at times be easier to hide "flaws". I've had one guy tell me he put a tarp over the rear end of his Panther because he tried to fight the seams til they just ended up beating him. cover it and the judges can't mark you wrong for what they can't see. I recently judged a local contest where a beautifully painted and weathered fine molds snow speeder lost out of first place because of a 1/8" long seam (very minor step not a gap) on one of the laser canon barrels. It had the wow factor and everything, but they flaw was just too simple to ignore. Dem's be the rules.

Bill

Edited by niart17
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well the thing is (as i don't know if you have seen the kit) the academy kit has a full interior cabin, troop seats, the options for folding the tail, rotors and positionable doors and windows. it wouldn't be any extra detailing, it would be nothing more than the kit parts in my hypothetical .

I guess I should've warned you that as a member of the "72nd Scale Mafia", every time somebody mentions a kit I default to the 1/72 version. :crying2: Sorry. The 72nd scale CH-53s that I have seen are not as nice as the Academy kit.

But the best answer I can give you is that, for right or wrong, the advantage does go to the modeler who chooses the better tooled kit. You can walk up to a well-built Fujimi 1/72 Skyhawk and you'll say: "That's a nice model." But, if you walk up to a Starfix 1/72 Skyhawk, no matter how well it's built, odds are you're gonna say: "What a piece of crap." Bottom line is, and there is no nice way to say this, some kits (Not built models. I'm talking kit quality.) don't belong at a show. Now matter how good of a modeler you are, you can't polish a turd.

Personally “a little too glossy†would be less of a basic error than wing root fit.

"A little too glossy" would actually be subjective. It's an accuracy issue and would, or should, be off bounds. For example, Argentine Super Etendards during the Falklands War were brand new and had been delivered in a glossy paint. They went into combat glossy. My point is that it could happen but it's impossible to know every instance of when an aircraft went into combat with a glossy surface. Since you can't know every instance, it shouldn't be a consideration. That's why we don't judge accuracy.

Secondly, (just to get in on the hubbub!), wouldn’t the comment… “A much more difficult kitâ€, be purely subjective? I mean difficult how? Poorly made, nothing fits or lots of parts to attach, or the kit comes with finicky aftermarket stuff, etc, etc.

Welcome to the hubbub! :lol: Best answer I can come up with is a two part answer. First, there are certain kits that are notorious for bad fit. (Heller 1/72 airliners come to mind. The Testor's/Italeri B-2 bomber is another example.) In those instances, the complexity of the kit comes into play IF the modeler has first covered the basics. Just like aftermarket comes into play IF the modeler covers the basics.

Second, aftermarket that comes with the kit is treated the same as aftermarket bought separately. All because that Eduard repackage of the Airfix Spitfire Mk. 22/24 comes with resin & PE doesn't mean it gets special treatment because it's harder than the basic Airfix kit. The modeler still has to cover the basics.

Complexity of the paint job should be secondary to the quality of the paint job, so if it’s true that judges look for the basics first and all the basics are covered, then and only then should complexity come into play?

Absolutely. Complexity serves two purposes: First, a tie breaker in a close contest where several models have covered the basics but only three can get ribbons and only one can be first. Second: special awards. "Peoples Choice/Most Popular, etc..." types of awards.

If the winning Mig that started all this is/was perfect, then would an exact duplicate decked out with armament, open panels with fuses and wiring, maybe flashing beacons and marker lights - but had a seam clearly visible on the underside - lose to the perfect Mig?

Personal, I don’t think it should. But I understand why it did.

He would lose because he didn't cover the basics. Fix that seam and he wins.

They don’t add marks for good, they deduct for bad.

It sounds bad but yes, it's true. The reason is the difficulty of the hobby. A model is defined as a miniature replica of the real thing. It just doesn't look like the real thing if there's a gap on it or a fingerprint in the paint, glue blobs, etc.. That's another reason why we don't judge accuracy. I've seen many models with "realistic" vents and airscoops and things that only a mechanic or pilot appreciate but they don't look real because the modeler didn't cover the basics.

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I guess I should've warned you that as a member of the "72nd Scale Mafia", every time somebody mentions a kit I default to the 1/72 version. :lol: Sorry. The 72nd scale CH-53s that I have seen are not as nice as the Academy kit.

But the best answer I can give you is that, for right or wrong, the advantage does go to the modeler who chooses the better tooled kit. You can walk up to a well-built Fujimi 1/72 Skyhawk and you'll say: "That's a nice model." But, if you walk up to a Starfix 1/72 Skyhawk, no matter how well it's built, odds are you're gonna say: "What a piece of crap." Bottom line is, and there is no nice way to say this, some kits (Not built models. I'm talking kit quality.) don't belong at a show. Now matter how good of a modeler you are, you can't polish a turd.

"A little too glossy" would actually be subjective. It's an accuracy issue and would, or should, be off bounds. For example, Argentine Super Etendards during the Falklands War were brand new and had been delivered in a glossy paint. They went into combat glossy. My point is that it could happen but it's impossible to know every instance of when an aircraft went into combat with a glossy surface. Since you can't know every instance, it shouldn't be a consideration. That's why we don't judge accuracy.

Welcome to the hubbub! :lol: Best answer I can come up with is a two part answer. First, there are certain kits that are notorious for bad fit. (Heller 1/72 airliners come to mind. The Testor's/Italeri B-2 bomber is another example.) In those instances, the complexity of the kit comes into play IF the modeler has first covered the basics. Just like aftermarket comes into play IF the modeler covers the basics.

Second, aftermarket that comes with the kit is treated the same as aftermarket bought separately. All because that Eduard repackage of the Airfix Spitfire Mk. 22/24 comes with resin & PE doesn't mean it gets special treatment because it's harder than the basic Airfix kit. The modeler still has to cover the basics.

Absolutely. Complexity serves two purposes: First, a tie breaker in a close contest where several models have covered the basics but only three can get ribbons and only one can be first. Second: special awards. "Peoples Choice/Most Popular, etc..." types of awards.

He would lose because he didn't cover the basics. Fix that seam and he wins.

It sounds bad but yes, it's true. The reason is the difficulty of the hobby. A model is defined as a miniature replica of the real thing. It just doesn't look like the real thing if there's a gap on it or a fingerprint in the paint, glue blobs, etc.. That's another reason why we don't judge accuracy. I've seen many models with "realistic" vents and airscoops and things that only a mechanic or pilot appreciate but they don't look real because the modeler didn't cover the basics.

Hey, listen up buddy... if you're going to respond and otherwise participate in this thread in a reasonable, responsible, calm and clear manner, stating your case without rhetoric, insult or undue emotion... then you have no business in this posting and I suggest you move along... there is nothing for you here. :)

Larry

Edited by Miccara
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thats sad Greg.........

But you know you can expect something like this from some of the people I have seen show up at the CentFL contests......

I especially liked the folks at the Spacecoast contest that got their awards and then couldn't shut up long enough so others could hear their name called.....my redneck brother from Alabama is more educated than that,

-Jim

p.s.: But where is the famous glob of glue and overspray? damned contacts, cant see a thing!

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Gentleman, and those who shall not be named who do not use grammar ( Let's all call them Buzz Killington )

This reminds me of when You take oh lets say a nice, understated 911 to the track and dudes show up with a 88 CRX, nay I should say a totally pimped out 3... count them 3 tones of primer CRX and go on this rant... "no mang my car is soo much fastah dan you dawg..I has like da rims and da big mufflah"...you look at the times posted, and see that you are indeed many seconds faster. They rebuttal with "no mang its like got stickers so I's gots mo horespowers and is faster dan you bes." I fail to see the logic pattern that has apparently crept into modeling. I am still trying to find the "WOW FACTOR" criteria in the IPMS jugging rules...

Was at the track once "1/4 drag track" a Guy with a Viper was there. He was one of them "Motor Trend Worrier" types; keeps the Magazine handy, yet cannot drive for crap so they point out the performance of the car in said Magazine.

Anyway, the guy came over to me when I was talking to a kid and looking over the kids Evo when we were in the staging lanes. Viper guy comes over, talking about the kids car being rice and he does not like rice, goes on about how his car "Viper" is faster bla blaa. Anyway, I ask him were his car is since I do not see a viper in the staging lanes and did not recall seeing a viper run the track that day. Guy points to the parking lot were is car is sitting.

To make a long story short.

I get the guy through Tech, let him use one of my helmets and I setup a grudge match, him against the kid with the Evo.

They race and the Evo wasted him right off the line, not even a contest since the viper guy roasted the tires.

So they come up-to where I was, the viper guy had the mentality to say he won the race since the time the kid did in the Evo was slower than the time Motor Trend did in the Mag with their Viper.

Pretty comical stuff, Viper guy left almost right after the race, never gave respect to the kid in the Evo. After about 20secands of time the kid had a ton of people run from the stands saying how, cool the race was, wishing they could say they beat a Viper.

Edited by Wayne S
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The Mig will be in Orlando this year lets see how it does their, since it will be a larger show.

I think it will unofficially ineligible as it won at the R-11 regional. Greg would have to duke it out in Phoenix.

Complexity of the paint job should be secondary to the quality of the paint job, so if it’s true that judges look for the basics first and all the basics are covered, then and only then should complexity come into play?

If the winning Mig that started all this is/was perfect, then would an exact duplicate decked out with armament, open panels with fuses and wiring, maybe flashing beacons and marker lights - but had a seam clearly visible on the underside - lose to the plain old perfect Mig?

Yes and Yes.

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This is why I don't enter my models into competitions.

Same here

That's too bad. You really are missing out. Model contests are a lot of fun and this doesn't happen at most contests. Believe it or not, it's not as common as one might be led to believe.

Hey, listen up buddy... if you're going to respond and otherwise participate in this thread in a reasonable, responsible, calm and clear manner, stating your case without rhetoric, insult or undue emotion... then you have no business in this posting and I suggest you move along... there is nothing for you here. :D

Larry

I know, I know. :doh: I probably should've just "IBTL'd" the thread like a few others did. Where is Random Cat Facts when you need him?

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Greg, this is very disrespectful it is unfortunate that this happen to your Mig. Now that I have a closer look @ your paint job I like the difference in color very nice.

Edited by badmarine
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If we start rating models based on the number of bells and whistles applied, then it becomes a contest of who can afford the most after-market do-dads on their models. I remember when the whole resin/photo-etch craze started models that used the stuff were bringing home the gold.

Then, some wise individual (or group) stopped for a moment, gave it some thought, and determined that the best and most objective way to judge was to judge the quality of the build vs. the quantity of stuff you glue on it. I like it that way and maybe that is why I especially like the "box-stock" category. That is one category in which placing really falls back on how well the modeler nails the basics.

Additionally, I think that when someone can consistently nail the basics and produce nice, clean work, that person (in my opinion) truly has evolved into a craftsman.

If you want to win, nail the basics. If you are a judge, objectively judge the ability of a modeler to nail the basics based on an established criteria. THEN go to technical applications (e.g.: effective weathering), THEN go into level of difficulty (e.g.: any added scratch building or ability to build a silk purse from a sows ear, so-to-speak), THEN go into EFFECTIVE APPLICATION of the after-market do-dads).

Again, this is just my opinion. I have my own way of judging that scans the field for any blatant/obvious finish/build flaws. I quickly eliminate those to obtain the top three our four models. THEN, I do a re-evaluation to determine which one will get 1st place. THEN, I evaluate which will be 2nd & 3rd, thus leaving any potential 4th to receive an honorable mention, should that recognition be established by the hosting club. I find that this process is fair and equitable and makes the judging process go faster. It's not my job as a judge to judge whether a 1969 Ford Whatzit used a particular design or carburator or not, especially if that model has already been eliminated. If we were judging these models based on accuracy, then modelers should have to provide documentation to support their model.

v/r

StewvonPO'edsomefolkswithhisop-edintheIPMSJounal. ;>)

Edited by CenTexModeler
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Wow some strong stuff here.

Bad that someone put a mark on your model, we had a judge drop a model last year which was ARH!

A couple of things I would like to add;

1. Judges are human, and juding reflective based on the judge. A lot of people jump in with comments about judging, but how many of you come forward to help out. I know at IPMS (UK) we are always after judges and not enough come forward every year. i know I had to do a couple of extra cateogies every year. If it is not your subject you dont know if a colour scheme is wrong, or the lower widget pannel opens to the left not the right. In these cases you are going on the quality of the build, finish etc these things in my mind go above how many "extras" some ones has added.

2. This brings me on to my second point. GET THE BASICS RIGHT, sorry to shout but if you chuck $50 of resin at a kit and leave me a nice seam, or bad overspray, or glue finger prints (all of which I have seen) then you dont score highly. If you have 2 identical kits and maybe someone hass added all the bombs etc then they might then get an extra point for this.

Bottom line I think is dont treat your judges too harshly its a hobby and they are only trying to help when judging at a comp. We are human, we do make mistakes, I know that might be a shock! Normally in the UK we judge in pairs so hopefully if someone makes a mistake then the other picks it up. I do find it helpful to bounce ideas etc of another person and it has worked well in the last couple of years I have done it.

Julien

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I'll just say that I've never been completely happy with IPMS judging criteria.

I am sponsoring a special award, "Best Large Scale Aircraft" at the upcoming IPMS Salt Lake contest. Fortunately I'll be able to make my own rules and pick the one that I feel is most worthy.

Here's what I'll be doing:

First I'll casually look at all the entrants and get a feel for what I consider the best.

I'll be looking at paint finish, decal application, general construction, and "Wow Factor". Wow factor to me is my overall impression of the presentation which does include extra details and difficulty of construction and paint scheme. Obvious flaws will narrow the field.

I'll pick a few favorites and move on to my next round, a closer look.

Here I'll try to pick out flaws and mentally weigh them against the other things the model has going for it. I won't be picking up the models but will be scrutinizing the undersides as best I can (I might even bring my dental mirror and pen light!). I'll be checking the standard IPMS type construction but I won't necessarily eliminate any models if I find problems.

I'll base my final decision not on the number of flaws or the number of extra details but my overall impression of how well the model was finished.

I'm perfectly willing to give the award to a model that might have a slight alignment problem or a small visible seam, silvered decal, etc. if it doesn't detract from the overall presentation.

Rather than comparing judging to car races I'd rather liken it to boxing and amateur vs. professional. Number of punches doesn't matter to me, amount of damage does.

At the end of each round I ask myself which fighter's shoes I would rather be in, the guy that landed lots of pitty-pat punches or the guy that busted up the other's ribs and bloodied his nose.

With models I ask myself which model would I be most proud of building, which I'd rather have in my display case.

Some may not consider this fair. Some may say that not all judges could be honestly subjective enough to not have a set list of criteria. I've been building and judging for most of my life though, so I don't feel bad about picking the one I feel is best by my standards vs. some rule book.

:D

Edit: In the end, An OOB, closed canopy model may well win out over a model with lots of bells and whistles.

Congrats on your win Greg. The graffiti is a crying shame...

Edited by Zactoman
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I would also ask at this point why my model has a new unexplained 1/4" mark on it that looks alot like a black sharpie.

Wow, that's pathetic that somebody did that.

Regards,

Murph

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