Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Mike, (milicari) do you think that it is possible to start from zero on judging a model and work up or are there many more variances compared to say, written work? Perhaps by deducting points, especially when the models being judged are likely to be to a very high standard for the final medal places, it might be easier and less time consuming?

I do. I think while there are many variances in model contests (if only because entrants choose their entries) it helps that judges are looking for particular things, regardless of what type of airplane is being modeled. It is therefore possible to alter the points system to add points, essentially for "difficulty". Sure, adding a full load of weapons means it will be harder build, but if you pull it off, you'll earn more points than had you left off the bombs and missiles.

Just a thought. I'm not a judge!

:woot.gif:

Mike

Link to post
Share on other sites
I would also ask at this point why my model has a new unexplained 1/4" mark on it that looks alot like a black sharpie.

Greg sounds like someone had a poopy in their di-di, and had to show their aggression on you! Now what I would like to know is why someone would even try something so brazen when there are people in that area that if they caught him doin it.....

well, Greg is a nice guy, and has friends, or should I say ALABAMA friends from loooooow places.

-Jim

p.s.: If anyone needs an extra di-di, I will pay for shipping from my house. My 18 month old has a couple to spare.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I do. I think while there are many variances in model contests (if only because entrants choose their entries) it helps that judges are looking for particular things, regardless of what type of airplane is being modeled. It is therefore possible to alter the points system to add points, essentially for "difficulty". Sure, adding a full load of weapons means it will be harder build, but if you pull it off, you'll earn more points than had you left off the bombs and missiles.

Just a thought. I'm not a judge!

:whistle:

Mike

Rules/Bible should always be thought of as the Integrity of the class.

If you sit there and make a point system were every part gets a point for being there. How is that helping, if it is meant for judging craftsmanship.

I my self would like to see this put into a class and have those rules in-front of me, to use against those who think it is a cleaver idea.

What you are saying is, he who uses the most aftermarket/scratch-built parts, wins the contest.

Edited by Wayne S
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Friends

This is a big issue all over the world.

I have entered a number of competitions and I think the problem stems from poor communication on the part of organisers in a number of aspects.

I believe that organisers should clearly state on what basis the models will be judged and what constitutes good scores, this should be attached to ever entry form so that everyone is aware of how their model is judged. I think the IPMS judging methodology is fairly sound, however the execution thereof is sometimes lacking.

Competitions tend detract from promoting the hobby, as there are always sore feelings after prize giving. Most entrants are not necessarily looking to win prizes, but certainly acknowledging all the entrants hard work is very important. When entrants are not acknowledged for their contribution to the event it tends to have a very demotivating effect resulting in anger and frustration.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I believe that organisers should clearly state on what basis the models will be judged and what constitutes good scores, this should be attached to ever entry form so that everyone is aware of how their model is judged. I think the IPMS judging methodology is fairly sound, however the execution thereof is sometimes lacking.

This is probably the best way to minimize these issues. Clearly state the requirements and set the expectations for the competitors. Put them on the contest website or have them 'downloadable' or refer to where they are posted. And make sure the judges fully understand and apply the criteria.

The first contest I entered was last year. I had no idea what the criteria were. Not that I cared - but maybe I should have. I just figured I would enter my best built model in a category that was not over my head.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I once saw a beautiful aircraft diorama where the modeler had working lights and props, ground crew pulling the chocks, moving away the ground support equipment, and everything. The model was nicely done. EXCEPT THERE WAS NO PILOT IN THE COCKPIT. For the life of him he could not figure out why his model didn't win the category. Ya gotta remember that basics rule the day! I was once berated by a modeler after a show that thought he should have won because he had an aftermarket cockpit and gun bay on his P-38 and the models that beat him were OOB. Well, aside from the fact that the tail booms were out of alignment and bare plastic was showing through on the leading and trailing edges where he had handled it, it was a decent effort. But those basics beat him.

Basics.

Basics.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Hello Friends

This is a big issue all over the world.

I have entered a number of competitions and I think the problem stems from poor communication on the part of organisers in a number of aspects.

I believe that organisers should clearly state on what basis the models will be judged and what constitutes good scores, this should be attached to ever entry form so that everyone is aware of how their model is judged. I think the IPMS judging methodology is fairly sound, however the execution thereof is sometimes lacking.

I have a sad story to go with this stuff.

One year there was a guy who entered his Blue Angles in a collection category. He did not place since the collection category was for 3 subjects only. Since he had more then 3, they did not even judge his collection. Mind you, no one told him until awards were giving out.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the judging of plastic models just on craftsmanship or are there other factors the model is judged on?

In the world of R/C scale competitions, each model entered has a documentation pack. This contains a published or authenticated 3 view of the aircraft, colour reference ( chips ), and supporting photographic reference of markings, modifications etc. The model is judged against this reference material, and marked down if it deviates from the documentation. The judge can only use the documentation as a reference and not his own knowledge of a subject.

Marking often has several sections

Outline

Finish, Color, and Markings

Craftsmanship

Realism

If a plastic model is judged on build quality, is that just seams filled, no fingerprints etc, or does it go as far as are the markings on straight? If there's no documentation to judge against, how can a judge say a feature or marking is right or wrong?

Link to post
Share on other sites
I once saw a beautiful aircraft diorama where the modeler had working lights and props, ground crew pulling the chocks, moving away the ground support equipment, and everything. The model was nicely done. EXCEPT THERE WAS NO PILOT IN THE COCKPIT. For the life of him he could not figure out why his model didn't win the category. Ya gotta remember that basics rule the day!

What if the kit came with no pilot?

How is this not different than the issue of "unrealistic" builds showing fully armed aircraft undergoing maintenance (i.e., panels are opened to show avionics; nose radome open to display the radar; etc.)?

If "basics" is the real deal (and I belive it is with respect to flawless construction), then why would "realism" even enter into the equation?

Just askin' . . .

Cheers, Mitch

Link to post
Share on other sites
What you are saying is, he who uses the most aftermarket/scratch-built parts, wins the contest.

Not necessarily.

What I'm saying is that if you have two equally-awesome models, and one is a Tamiya kit and one is a Mach2 kit, the Mach2 build should win.

:woot.gif:

Mike

Link to post
Share on other sites
I did read what he wrote and I Know which model he is talking about. This gentleman was at the Jax Show. He made his complaints to about 25 diffrent people and asked them what they thought and then he proceeded tell those same persons what his gripes where about other peoples models right in front of others. I think that the judging is fine. Everyone judges diffrently and can find diffrent flaws in the subject being judged. The more doors that are opened and the more you load the model with gives you more oporunity to f***-up.

Case in point Jet A is built very nicely and has its flaps down bombs loaded, and radar being worked on and no pilot. Jet B is in the same senerio as Jet A but has the pilot and the radar nose is closed. Which one would you pick?

As a judge I would pick Jet B. Bomded ladden Aircraft do not have work performed on while waiting for take off.

It has noting to do with judgeing Critiria it has to do with the Set up of both aircraft.

Frank

Accuracy does not come into play. It's impossible for every judge to know everything about every kind of A/C. As anohter poster here pointed out. Gil Hodges made the correct call when he told the teams they should be looking at the "And I;m paraphrasing here" model and not accuracy.

Jim

Link to post
Share on other sites

Basic, basics, basics... Once those are mastered, only then can you use the "busy" work to break out a model from the croud. IPMS should NOT change that standard.

I remember a 1/72 scale Trumpeter TU-95 Bear some years back at a JAX show that had been cut open and all the interior detail had been scratch built. The workmanship was pretty poor, yet the modeler that bult it wanted a plaque for all his trouble.

BTW, if you decide to displace flight controls on a conventional aircraft, (meaning non fly-by-wire) remember to displace the controls in the cockit! I judged in that contest last weekend, and I saw quite a few of those.

Tracy

Link to post
Share on other sites
This is the model that won. I built it. I am not sorry it won. It had no competition from any thing that sore loser brought to the table. And it should fair the same under any competition judging rules.

Yes, that's the one. Am am sorry, but I don't care how many bombs hang off a SuperHornet or how many panels are opened up, you're are not going to beat that build unless your finish is as good. It looked like a real jet in miniature sitting there, and was a clear cut winner in my book. Nice job, Greg.

Edited by DutyCat
Link to post
Share on other sites
In the world of R/C scale competitions, each model entered has a documentation pack. This contains a published or authenticated 3 view of the aircraft, colour reference ( chips ), and supporting photographic reference of markings, modifications etc. The model is judged against this reference material, and marked down if it deviates from the documentation. The judge can only use the documentation as a reference and not his own knowledge of a subject.

That's also the Royal Horticultural Society method. You give the judges a brief describing what you intend to achieve, and they judge it by how closely your effort matches the brief. Whether they like it is secondary, and you're allowed plants next to each other that live in different parts of world or flower at different times of the year (so absolute ecosystem fidelity isn't a requirement). But there are still ground rules. One show garden at Chelsea last year was disqualified because it contained no plants, even though the brief had said as much.

On expert knowledge: I appreciate that, say, only a dedicated S-3 expert would know about Mach tape and that you can judge validly without insisting on it. But at what point does accuracy become indispensable? For instance, the camouflage demarcation may be difficult to apply in the right place; how is ignoring that different in principle from ignoring, say, an F-18 painted blue and pink? Is it possible to win with a flawlessly executed but blue-and-pink F-18? - under IPMS or AMPS rules, that is, not R/C or RHS.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking for IPMS contests. Each show should be taken on its own merit. The "Judges" are volunteers - mostly from the local chapter who freely give their time to a thankless task. I didn't judge in this particular contest - but have before. Every effort is made to have individuals who have some knowledge of the particular areas they are judging. The "Basics of Construction" are always at the forefront. It doesn't matter if you start with an Aurora or Tamiya kit. Basic flaws are what knock out 90% of entries. It IS subjective given that for this group of "Judges" on this given category at this particular contest - they are simply going to do their best at applying the IPMS rules of construction fairly. At the next contest, it will be a completely different set of amatuer judges doing their best to be fair. It will NEVER be done to everyones satisfaction - and it's something we all need to live with. If you are building solely in the interest of bringing home an award - you might want to rethink your motivation - it really is just a hobby...

Hitch

Link to post
Share on other sites
If things are that tense for them, maybe they need to find a new hobby.

Yes. Because losing a modeling contest may not be fun, but if that's what one has to whine about, then they might try on for size other such tragedies as oh, say, a heart attack. Or a car accident. Or a house fire. Or...well, that should cover it, I think.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, that's the one. Am am sorry, but I don't care how many bombs hang off a SuperHornet or how many panels are opened up, you're are not going to beat that build unless your finish is as good. It looked like a real jet in miniature sitting there, and was a clear cut winner in my book. Nice job, Greg.

If I were to do a more modern jet I would most likely hang something on it, but not a Mig-15. I build my models for ME I'm not doing it to win something. Having said that I would also say that I am a member of IPMS, I support IPMS and I participate in IPMS. This includes bringing my current builds (normally no more than 2 shows per model) and entering them in IPMS contests. In real life you win some and you loose some. This was the 2nd contest for the Mig in Febuary she took 1st at Jaxcon. The only other show I could have taken her to would be the Nats, However no hope of that now with her new sharpie mark. Now one thing I noticed thats not cool was alot of repeat models that have been carried around for years... these guys just dont get it. And so goes the guys who bring these super sized display bases featuring elaborate ground support equipment they take almost the whole table, I had to set my 2 jet entries off to the side because of these fools then someone moved them behind all that mess into the corner of the table. I really didnt think my models would be seen let alone judged however I did not complain or whine about it

I took 9 models, jets, props, tanks,multi engine etc . 6 of them placed. My Wildcat is a very highly detailed kit featuring alot of aftermarket and scratch built items because thats the way I wanted to build it and she took 2nd... could I have done something easier and maybe faired a little better??? Maybe and I could have just brought some of my old war horses and gone for blood. Not very sporting.

Its really like this I look at real airplanes all day long I know what they look like and I'm not going for phony "ACTION". My Mig has more genuine 'ACTION' the way she is. She is what the Ace Nikolay Shkodin-s Mig 15 is to me. Nikolay was a Russian HONCHO he shot down 4 Saber jets and a F-84 his Mig was rode hard and put away wet always ready for a fight! Not dripping with bombs or some kind of HANGER QUEEN. :whistle:

Thanks for your kind remarks,

Greg.

Edited by TF51GREGWISE
Link to post
Share on other sites
This was the 2nd contest for the Mig in Febuary she took 1st at Jaxcon.

Greg.

Greg, funny thing is, IIRC, I also led the team that judged 1/48 jet at JaxCon

I thought you were kidding about the Sharpie mark! Where was it? I can't believe someone did that! It certainly wasn't us!

Edited by DutyCat
Link to post
Share on other sites
Now one thing I noticed thats not cool was alot of repeat models that have been carried around for years... these guys just dont get it. And so goes the guys who bring these super sized display bases featuring elaborate ground support equipment they take almost the whole table, I had to set my 2 jet entries off to the side because of these fools then someone moved them behind all that mess into the corner of the table. I really didnt think my models would be seen let alone judged however I did not complain or whine about it

:worship:

Thanks for your kind remarks,

Greg.

Not only have I seen the same model at the same show two years in a row, but I also saw it at the same show 8 YEARS earlier!!!!!!!!!!!!! and boy some guys displays really are getting carried nowadays. By the way Greg great model.

Ken :cheers:

Edited by KenM
Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the basic flaw with our hobby contest judging.

There are no degrees of dificulty

I find it unfair and punishes the person who goes the extra mile. I will never enter a plastic modeling contest with the current judging rules.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...