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There are no degrees of dificulty

Yes, there are. Everybody has to cover the basics. That means: no silvering of the decals, glue blobs, fingerprints or dust in the paint, cracks, seams, etc.. Model must be symmetric (Aircraft doesn't lean, nothing is crooked, etc...) and whatever basics I left out.

If a modeler has the skill to cut flaps and drop them then he has the skill to fill gaps and sand them smooth. If he has the skill to paint camouflage, then he should have the skill to avoid overspray. If he has the skill to jam a &@*$& Aries cockpit into a kit, any kit, then he has the skill to make sure that wings, landing gear, pylons, etc. are symmetric.

The modeler increases the degree of difficulty by super detailing his model. He can do all the aftermarket & scratch building that he wants to do but he still has to cover the basics.

Furthermore, nobody can say that an airplane looks like a real airplane if there's a blob of glue holding the bomb on the pylon, or, if any of the other basics have not been covered.

To use a model that I saw at a contest recently as an example, a modeler went through all the trouble of scratch building a wing fold on a jet. He did a good job. But then he obviously hand panted the nose strut. How do I know this? Because the paint on the strut was so thick that it had pooled up between the strut and the wheel door. He didn't go the extra mile. He went the extra mile on the wings but he cut corners on the landing gear. If he had gone the extra mile on the gear, he would've airbrushed them or taken his time to brush paint really thin coats and not let a blob of paint pool up on his gear.

Bottom line is this: there is a tendency for some 'super detailers' to invest a lot of time, energy & money in the parts of the model they find important in hopes of generating 'action' and then they cut corners on the basics, then they complain when they learn they screwed up. I've done this myself. My OOB kits do much better than my more detailed kits. In fact, the more time I spend on a model, the less success it has at a show. In those situations, I have nobody but myself to blame.

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Here is the basic flaw with our hobby contest judging.

There are no degrees of dificulty

I find it unfair and punishes the person who goes the extra mile. I will never enter a plastic modeling contest with the current judging rules.

If one wants to win, they have decided it is a competition, they are competing against other modelers.

No competition worth anything is going to grant somebody something for going the extra mile, like you think.

You build to the rules in any competition. What you think of as the extra mile is what I consider a handicap.

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I will never enter a plastic modeling contest with the current judging rules.

That's really quite a shame - and the only one missing out is you. The biggest part of it (In my opinion) is getting to show off your hard work to others who will enjoy and (hopefully) appreciate it. If awards are all you're after, you can easily go to any crafts or awards store and pick up plenty...

Hitch

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As a current judge on the UK I still find it surprisong hat people make basic build errors!

Also people dont seem able to read the rules. I have been forced in the last couple of years to disqualify what was certainly the best model in the class as the rules had not been followed, such a shame.

Julien

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As a current judge on the UK I still find it surprisong hat people make basic build errors!

Also people dont seem able to read the rules. I have been forced in the last couple of years to disqualify what was certainly the best model in the class as the rules had not been followed, such a shame.

Julien

Can you elaborate? sounds interesting.

Ken :D

P.S. Planning on getting over for Telford 2011 I'll buy you a pint, after you finish judging of course.

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This is a bit of the problem with the IPMS judging standards, no extra credit is given for doing more work, and it opens up more areas for flaws on the builders part, however this is criteria that is being used at this time. Now the question is, does 5 extra things done to a model outweigh one minor flaw, vs. a cleanly built model with no extras but no "WOW" factor. I'm pretty sure we don't want to start the "Whole model concept" and the winners being models that have every bit of aftermarket that you can buy on the kit, and excluding modelers who either can't afford, don't want to, or build a kit that doesn't have any aftermarket axailable for it. Maybe it's time to do what AMPS does and break it down to what the builders do to the model so various levels of detail compete against each other. This is how AMPS breaks it down http://www.amps-armor.org/ampssite/contestRules.aspx . That being said how " Slight" were the finish issues?

Ken :worship:

The Guy who ask the judge was me , and believe after 15 years on the comptition and be part of Judging my self for years , i was not happy with the outcome , was it sound to me is like the modelers has to be weak and build only clean and out of the box models to be really on the right side , i don t beleive that , there was 3 models on that table oustanding with no flaws at all and he was even unable to ping point real problems, i will post photos later to show the models in question, i know when you add more detail you are adding for trouble and disqualification , but when the model turn down to be perfect , i was unable to find even a problem in one , who have the hell of aftermarket and look real to the teeth. this feeling i brought to the judge was also felt by a lot of people on the show , the diferent was i deside to go foward instead of say , well they did wrong and o the next one let see what happen. this is my first real problem with judging because it look to obvious to me . this models i bet will go to other shows in florida , anyone who live and go to the next shows , judge by your self

i feel Judging has to have all perspective open and balance the weight desicion. i Igree on what you just brought out and quote : "Now the question is, does 5 extra things done to a model outweigh one minor flaw, vs. a cleanly built model with no extras but no "WOW" factor"

let me tell you the WOW factor was very high on the model A , not only on A , c, d, e , there where a lot of candy well build on that table.

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If one wants to win, they have decided it is a competition, they are competing against other modelers.

No competition worth anything is going to grant somebody something for going the extra mile, like you think.

You build to the rules in any competition. What you think of as the extra mile is what I consider a handicap.

I tend to agree with this point. Take autoracing for instance (I figured Wayne would like this comparison :worship: ) The basic rules are to get to a finish line first. It doesn't matter how pretty your car is painted or how much "cool" stuff you have on it or in it. The stereo could be killer and you could could have chrome plated everything under the sun, but if you don't complete the basic rule of the race, to pass the finish line first, well then you lost.

I'm not saying one way or the other as far as this particular model. Model A might have beat out B on any other day at any other competition (or even the same one) under any other situation. But on that day, at that time with those judges, it didn't. There's really not much that can be argued one way or the other since the judges are humans and can note some things one time but maybe not other times. It's the nature of the game. No hard feelings should be taken from it.

Bill

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I was @ this event and I did see the Mig that won it was nice but very plan there was no WOW factor at all and I did not think that its paint job was not that great either. There was an F-15 & J-10 that the paint jobs where much better and cleaner with no over spray @ all. Now if I had to pick between F-18 WOW factor and the MIG the F-18 would win. The modeler has put much more work and difficulty into the build, while the Mig was a simple build no difficulty @ all. When a modeler has made the decision to add aftermarket parts to his kit and it look fantastic to make the model stand out that has to be rewarded. I attend a show in Texas last year and this Hornet took second and there where 3 times many more aircraft and many more experienced modelers so the judging must have been very difficult. I guess the WOW factor came into place because an EF-111 took first and that kit had a few aftermarket items on it also. So WOW factor must come into place when the modeler puts difficulty into its build and pulls it off. In this case the F-18 pulled it off and so did a few other kits that where their. The J-10 which took 2nd was great the WOW factor was the paint job it was clean but I don’t know if the modeler put any aftermarket part on it.

Who cares if a modeler wants to open different parts to the build to show it off! This shows the builder is experienced. Maybe the judges are tired of seeing US Jets and would like to see different jets like China, Russian etc. Who knows what the judge saw in this kit only he knows but all the other modelers need to know why that kit won. In my opinion the judge drop the ball on this one compared to the show in Texas only the best was pulled and all of it had aftermarket parts.

Badmarine.

Edited by badmarine
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What really ticked me OFF, was that I showed up late on Sunday and missed the whole stupid thing!! I was angry....mad...and still had $200 in my pocket. What kind of contest do you show up late with $200 in your pocket, and everyone is done? Can you believe it?!!

Jim -

Send Sean that money.... he can spend it for you on Saturday! :coolio:

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Take autoracing for instance (I figured Wayne would like this comparison :whistle: ) The basic rules are to get to a finish line first.

I see it more like a cleanest car contest rather than a race, with judges searching high and low for a fleck of dirt or a water-spot when it should be a coolest car contest instead.

Perfect workmanship is something to be praised but building a model that can wow the crowd is a more praiseworthy skill IMHO.

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I see it more like a cleanest car contest rather than a race, with judges searching high and low for a fleck of dirt or a water-spot when it should be a coolest car contest instead.

Perfect workmanship is something to be praised but building a model that can wow the crowd is a more praiseworthy skill IMHO.

Not to be contradictory because that is your opinion so you can't be wrong. But I can give you a good case and point as to why that might not be the best way to judge a contest. I entered my Apollo splashdown diorama in the local contest a few months ago. It is definately NOT a prize winning model as it has many construction flaws and some rather poorly done attempts at figures. BUT a few people saw it and immediately declared that they would vote for that as the winning diorama if they were asked to be the judges. The ONLY reason they would have done that is because they were all space freaks and don't care much for armor (which is what most other dioramas were) so to them it was the only model that had WOW factor on the table. The rest were just boring ol' tank dios. The problem is they were all INCREDIBLY done awesome dios that all beat my piece of...model and rightfully did so. That's why personal taste (which is what wow factor is all about) should be taken out of the equation until all other things have been deemed equal. But that's just my opinion as well.

Bill

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I think some modelers have forgotten the reason why some use aftermarket kits, IT IS TO BRING REALISUM to make it as real as possible. We are all trying to duplicate to real thing & because now we have judging that just don't understand it or fail to see that concept. May the judging guidelines have to change because that not right? You can go to a show like the Texas show and every kit that won had heavy aftermarket usage WOW FACTOR and then you go to another show and some very plain kit win best of show beating kits with aftermarket kits that look 100 times better. I would say you got robbed so why would I go back to that show and support it next year and let suppose you are a club and all of their members stop supporting the show. Now it becomes a major issue because the word gets around very fast in this hobby. Look I though the show was great but when the Mig won there where a look of surprise and a lot of whispering around the room & a lot of talking after the show. So we can’t blame the builder of the Mig he worked hard to build his Mig in his eyes it perfect but in other its not, like they say “to the eyes of the beholderâ€. So who do we blame the judging? What did he see? Maybe he likes Mig’s? We just don’t know. The Mig builder is also upset because some people are ripping his kit and it should have not won maybe so but the fact still stands he won. But, maybe the same judge who made the Mig a winner might next time take a second, or a third look or maybe ask a question or two about kits with aftermarket in the completion before he makes a decision that will throw him into a pool full of sharks.

Edited by badmarine
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Can you elaborate? sounds interesting.

Ken :worship:

P.S. Planning on getting over for Telford 2011 I'll buy you a pint, after you finish judging of course.

I will take you up on that.

One example of not reading the rules was that you are only allowed to place one figure on a base for scale reasons and no more. A very good model had 2 figures on the base, I know its a small point but the rules are the rules. If you were to place that and someone who does not place complains then they have a legimate complaint!

Have also had to disqualify models that were clearly dioramas but the entrant insisted they were to go into a class which was not for them. We tried to be helpful and move them to a different class but he would not have it. Then wonders why it is disqualified.

One interestin point, is what now is OOB? get the Eduard boxing of the Spitfire 22/24 and it comes with the airfix kit, eduard etch and aires resin in the box. Is it fair then to compare this against say a build of the orginal Airfix kit? after all both have been built with what comes out of the box.

Julien

Julien

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i feel Judging has to have all perspective open and balance the weight desicion. i Igree on what you just brought out and quote : "Now the question is, does 5 extra things done to a model outweigh one minor flaw, vs. a cleanly built model with no extras but no "WOW" factor"

let me tell you the WOW factor was very high on the model A , not only on A , c, d, e , there where a lot of candy well build on that table.

I've finished second, third, and even way out of the money at contests when I thought I should have placed higher. For example, I once had an F-16 that was second to a Mirage (with obvious wing root issues IMHO). Did I agree with that? No way, but I sucked it up and congratulated the winner. I asked the judges what was wrong with my model and they commented that my finish was a little too glossy. I asked about the Mirage and was told that it was a much more difficult kit with a difficult paint job and that it was hard to distinguish one build from the other. So, in this case degree of difficulty and the balls to build a jet with French markings stole the day. Good for him.

I looked at the Mig and saw a little overspray on the wing and some glue on the canopy. I would have liked to see the canopy opened in order to see what was going on in there. The J-10 had a few issues aside from the fictitious paint scheme. The Mig-29 and the Hornet were also very nice. However, the judges saw it a different way and that is how it goes.

Take it easy Makosf14, they are just plastic toys at the end of the day.

Badmarine wrote:

I attend a show in Texas last year and this Hornet took second and there where 3 times many more aircraft and many more experienced modelers so the judging must have been very difficult. I guess the WOW factor came into place because an EF-111 took first and that kit had a few aftermarket items on it also.

Is this the model you were talking about? Without seeing it up close, I'd have to say the Hornet could take it.

ef111aa.jpg

*Edited to remover overly personal comments*

Edited by Alvis 3.1
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The way I grade, which is to start at 0 and then add points for getting things right, seems like it would reward a challenge. The more difficult the build, assuming you do it well, the more points you'd get.

:)

Mike

The difficulty is defining the difficulty of the build. I assume that your students start with set tasks or a small pool of tasks relevant to whatever they're examined on, but modellers choose from a large pool of start points of widely varying quality. No judge will know everything about the start points, or the aftermarket added to them, so how do they know what is the more difficult build?

Shane

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"QUOTE: Swimmer 25k "The J-10 had a few issues aside from the fictitious paint scheme. The Mig-29 and the Hornet were also very nice. However, the judges saw it a different way and that is how it goes."

Is this the fictitious scheme you are referring to? Because that's a real J-10 with a real two tone blue camo scheme on it.

PaintScheme.jpg

Edited by Fangs_Out
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"QUOTE: Swimmer 25k "The J-10 had a few issues aside from the fictitious paint scheme. The Mig-29 and the Hornet were also very nice. However, the judges saw it a different way and that is how it goes."

Is this the fictitious scheme you are referring to? Because that's a real J-10 with a real two tone blue camo scheme on it.

PaintScheme.jpg

My bad. I remembered the paint being a bit lighter than what is depicted in your photo, but I guess I was mistaken. Sorry about that.

Jorge

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The difficulty is defining the difficulty of the build. I assume that your students start with set tasks or a small pool of tasks relevant to whatever they're examined on, but modellers choose from a large pool of start points of widely varying quality. No judge will know everything about the start points, or the aftermarket added to them, so how do they know what is the more difficult build?

Shane

Shane,

Good point. You've changed my mind regarding judging models. :)

:D

Mike

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hypothetical....if a show has 2 ch-53's. built exactly the same (hell for the sake of argument could even say by the same builder) but 1 has the cargo ramp and doors open, rotors extended...the other all buttoned up and folded up. quality is exactly the same as far as fit and finish, and all kit parts and options. who wins?

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The J-10 was the nice and so was the F-18F. Clean, competent builds with almost nothing to gig. I already mentioned the slight roughness on the black VF-41 stripe and the dullish finish on the tailcones. Small stuff. But the Mig was just a work of art. I suggest folks look at the Mig pics posted above, then think of an F-18 or J-10 that is clean to almost perfect, with weaps, open cockpit, and such. What would you choose as a winner? The three judges in our group unanimously picked the Mig. The build went beyond just doing everything technically right. As I said, it looked like a real miniature jet sitting there. It may not have had any weps or cockpit WOW, but that authentic camo finish was WAY WOW. As was mentioned, it won at JAXCON too.

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I will take you up on that.

One example of not reading the rules was that you are only allowed to place one figure on a base for scale reasons and no more. A very good model had 2 figures on the base, I know its a small point but the rules are the rules. If you were to place that and someone who does not place complains then they have a legimate complaint!

Have also had to disqualify models that were clearly dioramas but the entrant insisted they were to go into a class which was not for them. We tried to be helpful and move them to a different class but he would not have it. Then wonders why it is disqualified.

One interestin point, is what now is OOB? get the Eduard boxing of the Spitfire 22/24 and it comes with the airfix kit, eduard etch and aires resin in the box. Is it fair then to compare this against say a build of the orginal Airfix kit? after all both have been built with what comes out of the box.

Julien

Julien

The figures on the base are a good are not really a small point once you let one thing through pretty soon it gets out of hand. Case in point our local figure modeling club had to put in a rule limiting size/hieght etc. on bases as they were getting out of hand and had an influence on the judging. While judges do their best a nicely done base can sometimes sway results, this will usually happen at smaller shows, and the judges may not even realise that they are doing that.

As far as OOB goes this really needs to be looked at because it sure wasn't what it was 10 years ago.

Ken :cheers:

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Hello Friends

This is a big issue all over the world.

I have entered a number of competitions and I think the problem stems from poor communication on the part of organisers in a number of aspects.

I believe that organisers should clearly state on what basis the models will be judged and what constitutes good scores, this should be attached to ever entry form so that everyone is aware of how their model is judged. I think the IPMS judging methodology is fairly sound, however the execution thereof is sometimes lacking. resulting in anger and frustration.

I have entered many contests over a span of about 40 years, in six countries, and in the last 25 years I have never entered a contest where the rules didn't make it reasonably clear how the models would be judged. This particularly applies to IPMS contests, or contests with a similar "basics first" rule set.

Mostly the communications issue stem from entrants who fail to *read* the rules or fail (or choose!) to misunderstand them.

Shane

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but when the model turn down to be perfect

WOW, you found a perfect model? In all my years of going to contests I have never seen one. If this were an IPMS contest and the IPMS rules were followed then extra credit isn't given. If you open up panals and hang bombs then you better get it right or you'll get dinged. Does someone who dosn't do all that have an advantage? I would say yes but thats how the current ruless are supposed to be applied. Now I will say that I and others have felt that there shoudl be an exposed internals catagory so the ones all opened up are not competeing against those that arn't.This would leval the field a bit with like built models staying in thier same catagories, just like the Armor guys so. They practice this and I have always wondered why aircraft dosn't.

Jim

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Can everybody quit getting personal and stick to the topic of judging OOB vs. a detailed model & the importance of covering the basics?

hypothetical....if a show has 2 ch-53's. built exactly the same (hell for the sake of argument could even say by the same builder) but 1 has the cargo ramp and doors open, rotors extended...the other all buttoned up and folded up. quality is exactly the same as far as fit and finish, and all kit parts and options. who wins?

If I'm reading your post correctly then you pose a fascinating scenario. First we assume: "quality is exactly the same as far as fit and finish".

So far, everybody has posed a OOB kit vs. a Detailer's scratchbuild and/or aftermarket equipped model. In that scenario, IF "quality is exactly the same as far as fit and finish" then the Detailer's build wins because he covered the basics AND he went the extra mile.

In your example, "1 has the cargo ramp and doors open, rotors extended". I'm assuming a detailed cargo bay but the rotors are in their normal position of being extended for flight. (As most kits come.)

"the other all buttoned up and folded up". I'll assume every door and panel is closed but the rotors are folded, heck, we'll even fold the tail.

These situations are hard to judge because both modelers covered the basics. Both models pass the "Honey, I shrunk the CH-53 test" but only one can win first. What makes it hard is that in detailing, comparing a cargo ramp & bay to a folded rotor and tail boom is like comparing apples & oranges. Does a scratch-built swash plate with cyclic controls equate to a scratch-built cargo bay wench? The answer is subjective and this is where the quality of judging becomes subjective.

Fact is, there are many high quality models showing up at contests these days and sometimes it's very hard to pick one that is "best". Sometimes the quality of the final two, three or four is so good that you have to get nitpicky. We have no choice. We can't have 3 models in first place. I doubt anybody wants a model contest to become equivalent to a kindergarten game where "Everybody is a winner!"

As a former and future judge, I've judged many different categories: ships, planes, tanks, cars, but in the end, there are only two types of model contests: A Battle of the Flaws, where you count how many flaws the models have and the one with the fewest points wins. (Like golf.) Then there are Battles of the Perfect: where the models are to such a high standard that everybody is wondering why we're taking an hour to judge one category. In the end, the judges end up desperate to find something to nick one of the entries on and are forced to get nitpicky. Of course, the result of getting nitpicky is singed feelings. There's nothing we can do about that.

*Note: The term "perfect" is used to define a model with no easily detected flaws in the time allotted.

*Note: I don't know if a CH-53 has a wench in the cargo bay or not. That was just an example.

*Note: I did not judge in Cocoa Beach and I'm not familiar with the controversy about 1/48 jets. I've only read about it here.

*Note: Every time I've judged, there has been no such thing as "WOW Factor". It doesn't exist. Once you start looking at a model closeup any "WOW" that you saw when you first arrived (Usually hours ago.) melts away. It's not our job to judge "WOW". It's our job to judge craftsmanship.

Edited by Pirata
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*Note: I don't know if a CH-53 has a wench in the cargo bay or not.

I think it's on the rear bulkhead, next to the intake strumpet.

I once came fifth in a field of one, you know. Had my little Rudyard Kipling moment and now find that I really don't give a stuff.

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