snickers Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 (edited) Can a drop tank (jet) really creates fireball when dropped? Or that's just a myth? Edited April 24, 2010 by snickers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andre Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 I think it would depend - I can imagine a gas / air mixture remaining in the tank, and when dropped it could hit rocks or whatnot, creating a spark. Cheers, Andre Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snickers Posted April 24, 2010 Author Share Posted April 24, 2010 I think it would depend - I can imagine a gas / air mixture remaining in the tank, and when dropped it could hit rocks or whatnot, creating a spark. Cheers, Andre -Seen from the movie "Behind Enemy Lines", damn, the tanks went fireball! And also seen a show at History Channel, F-4s chased two MiGs the n when the MiGs dropped their tanks, they're like napalms exploded! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Can a drop tank (jet) really creates fireball when dropped? Or that's just a myth? You aren't getting drop tanks confused with napalm are you ??? Just asking.... Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snickers Posted April 24, 2010 Author Share Posted April 24, 2010 (edited) You aren't getting drop tanks confused with napalm are you ???Just asking.... Ken -Of course I know what napalm is. Let's go back to the topic. No sarcasm. Edited April 24, 2010 by snickers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 -Of course I know what napalm is. Let's go back to the topic. No sarcasm. I wasn't being sarcastic - just trying to help..... Whatever...... Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rightwinger26 Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Well, about 5 years ago my squadron was on a det in Fallon, the left main on one of our birds wouldnt come down, AND the pilot couldnt pickle his stores, so he made a two point landing that grinded about half the empty drop tank on station 3 off, and no explosion, so I would say no. But kudos to my drop tank for keeping the wing tip from sliding down the runway, Mechs save the day yet again:) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flyboyf18 Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 OK back on topic; you refer to 'Behind Enemy Lines', which IMHO is a huge piece of crap realistically, not even close!!!! #1 - the camera system had the storage device (CD or DVD) in the ejection seat - bull crap there is no room on a modern seat to house something like that!! #2 - the scene where they had SAMs fired at them and they were able to avoid them?????? Most SAMs accelerate to something like Mach 5, the missile can with stand G forces much higher than a pilot so sharp turns are much easier for a missile than a pilot so the could easliy turn inside a jet and blamo jet gone!! Granted the movie was entertaining to a point but anyone with any military flying experience will fill it with holes on the realism scale. So exploding fuel tanks......hmmmmmm....where's my salt shaker? My $00.02 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rightwinger26 Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 OK back on topic; you refer to 'Behind Enemy Lines', which IMHO is a huge piece of crap realistically, not even close!!!!#1 - the camera system had the storage device (CD or DVD) in the ejection seat - bull crap there is no room on a modern seat to house something like that!! #2 - the scene where they had SAMs fired at them and they were able to avoid them?????? Most SAMs accelerate to something like Mach 5, the missile can with stand G forces much higher than a pilot so sharp turns are much easier for a missile than a pilot so the could easliy turn inside a jet and blamo jet gone!! Granted the movie was entertaining to a point but anyone with any military flying experience will fill it with holes on the realism scale. So exploding fuel tanks......hmmmmmm....where's my salt shaker? My $00.02 I agree, if you work in military aviation, any and all movies completely suck!! I loath Behind Enemy Lines, and Top Gun, I know they are movies, but come on, try to make it seem a little real Quote Link to post Share on other sites
strikeeagle801 Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 You know, it's funny. I know just as well as any that Top Gun is a load of crap (the fact that Maverick lauches 4 Sparrows off the left wing pylon, and they magically turn into Sidewinders as they fly to the target for instance) and yet, it's still one of my favorite movies. I guess this is one of life's great mysteries for me, because things like that usually bug the hell out of me. I don't like Tom Cruise, Kelly Mcgilis was not all that hot...I don't know, but there it is. Aaron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alvis 3.1 Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 I recall in Yeager's autobiography, his last combat mission over Europe consisted of him and his wingman dropping their drop tanks and strafing them repeatedly to make them blow up, and they never even got them to catch fire! As for movies that make no sense, the Blue Brothers defies all logic, yet is one of my fave films. Then again, I doubt it ever served as a recruiting tool for any organization. Alvis 3.1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jake Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 As for movies that make no sense, the Blue Brothers defies all logic, yet is one of my fave films. Then again, I doubt it ever served as a recruiting tool for any organization. Enrollment at St. Helen of the Blessed Shroud increased. Jake Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sunliner Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 ......#2 - the scene where they had SAMs fired at them and they were able to avoid them?????? Most SAMs accelerate to something like Mach 5, the missile can with stand G forces much higher than a pilot so sharp turns are much easier for a missile than a pilot so the could easliy turn inside a jet and blamo jet gone!! ..... I'm not an aviator so I'll defer to the experts, but I thought sharp turns would be harder at least for a big surface-to-air missle than they would be for a jet. Wouldn't higher speed be a detriment to maneuverability? Also with skill and lot of luck, couldn't a pilot maneuver such as to get out of the radar lock? Again, I'm not arguing....I really don't know. That SAM in Behind Enemy Lines was a real mother...that 180 it pulled....sheesh! Topgun was crap but it was a great date movie. -Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 (edited) I'm not an aviator so I'll defer to the experts, but I thought sharp turns would be harder at least for a big surface-to-air missle than they would be for a jet. Wouldn't higher speed be a detriment to maneuverability? Also with skill and lot of luck, couldn't a pilot maneuver such as to get out of the radar lock? Again, I'm not arguing....I really don't know. Excessive speed = decreased turn rate and increased turn radius (aka bigger turns). There are plenty of published accounts of aircraft outmaneuvering missiles. BTW, jet fuel is not as flammable as people tend to think, especially as it has moved from JP-4, to JP-5, then JP-8. Regards, Murph Edited April 24, 2010 by Murph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gundamhead Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Gasoline is far more kaboomable than Jet Fuel. So it matters if you're talking prop or jet. Mythbuster did a show shooting gas tanks on cars and they did not go boom. They leaked. They did go boom with incendiary rounds though. Many drop tanks were recovered after planes dropped them. Aluminum doesn't spark. Now, drop the empties on a fire ball, hit them with tracers (incendiary), maybe boom. The gasoline stands a much better chance of boomage, but not with out the fire to set it off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aaronw Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 I've read that USN fighters in WW2 occasionally dropped their tanks of Japanese ships then strafed to set them on fire. As mentioned above Avgas is far more flammable than jet fuel. Given an ignition source (burning vehicle etc) though I'd say it is possible. I'm sure a drop tank slamming into the ground would do a nice job of getting fuel vapors into the air. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ikar Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 When I was at Kadena we had a F-16 come in with one main gear working. He ended up bouncing the aircraft down the runway on his centerline tank until he skidded onto the grass next to the runway. When the aircraft stopped he jettisoned his canopy and ran from the aircraft. There was no fire. I was listening to a couple pilots talking about an incident during Vietnam when a F-105F or G was attacked by a mig. The Thud dropped his tanks and went evasive. When they looked in the direction of where the mig should have been they saw the remains of an explosion, smoke and some fire, and some objects falling through the sky, but no mig. In that case it might be fairly safe to say that a tank would go up. By the way, according to the story, they did not get credit for the kill. No witnesses and no gun film. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Slartibartfast Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 (edited) A second cousin of mine had an electrical failure during a familiarization flight over Japan in an F-80 during the Korean war. He didn't like how his first approach was going so he went around. He ran out of fuel and, because he couldn't hand-cycle his gear down in time, was forced to belly in. Both tip tanks broke open while skidding down the runway, one of which had a small fire but no explosion. The plane was written off because the jettisoned canopy walloped the vertical stab, otherwise there was little damage. Fire requires three elements: fuel, oxygen and an ignition source. Aluminum doesn't spark when abraded. I chuckled when reading Anderson's account of his last flight with Yeager. Their drop tanks weren't empty and incendiary rounds were part of their ammo load yet they couldn't get that gasoline to ignite. Edited April 25, 2010 by Slartibartfast Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spongebob Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Excessive speed = decreased turn rate and increased turn radius (aka bigger turns). There are plenty of published accounts of aircraft outmaneuvering missiles. BTW, jet fuel is not as flammable as people tend to think, especially as it has moved from JP-4, to JP-5, then JP-8. I actually snuffed out a road flare in a burn pan full of JP-5 during an aircraft fire-fighting training event. Spongebob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wayne S Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 I actually snuffed out a road flare in a burn pan full of JP-5 during an aircraft fire-fighting training event.Spongebob I Think JP-5 has a higher temperature rating then JP-8. If I recall right the US Navy uses JP-5? JP-5 is more expensive then JP-8 if I recall right. Were JP-8 is better is that it supposedly produces less vapor with the additives in the fuel. I would have to check but I think the 747 that exploded off the coast here had JP-8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nighthawk117 Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 One of the most common misconceptions is fuel/petrol burns. It doesnt! Liquid fuel/petrol is like any other liquids in that it's wet. Drop a lighted match into liquid fuel, and the match will just go out. What burns is actually the fuel/petrol vapours. Like any other liquid, fuel will evaporate. When a cup of fuel is set on fire, the flames actually start above the liquid, but it gives the impression that the liquid is on fire. Bottom line, liquid petrol doesn't burn. The vapours burn. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wayne S Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 Bottom line, liquid petrol doesn't burn. The vapours burn. That is not necessarily correct. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pigsty Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 A word on missiles: high G at high speeds means large turn radius; higher G capability means tighter turns at any given speed than a manned aircraft, but moving at higher speeds means that this advantage is reduced. A missile may start at upwards of Mach 3 but is coasting from the second the engine goes out, so its speed will deteriorate. You may think this increases its high-speed turning rate, but because to pull a tight turn takes kinetic energy that's not being replenished, the effect is to reduce its overall range and make it easier for the target to escape. A word on tanks: if memory serves the general rule is that fuel is drawn from external tanks first, to make it easier to drop them empty should the need arise. That, plus inerting systems, plus the strength of structure needed to withstand high-speed high-G flight, may explain why you can use an external tank as surrogate undercarriage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spike7451 Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 I agree, if you work in military aviation, any and all movies completely suck!! I loath Behind Enemy Lines, and Top Gun, I know they are movies, but come on, try to make it seem a little real True... Back in 1987,I was ona course at RAF Cosford when Top Gun came out so,a bunch of us Armourers went to see it.At the bit where the Nav ejected, we were all asked to leave the cinema beacuse of the roars of laughter & discussion of the real ejection sequence urined off the cinema usher! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andre Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 True...Back in 1987,I was ona course at RAF Cosford when Top Gun came out so,a bunch of us Armourers went to see it.At the bit where the Nav ejected, we were all asked to leave the cinema beacuse of the roars of laughter & discussion of the real ejection sequence urined off the cinema usher! Totally justified - there is now a tenth circle in Hell reserved for people who talk during the movie. ;-) Cheers, Andre Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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