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Vance pilots targeted with laser


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Broadly speaking, and to anyone who knows, (stay away from specifics, if it might get you in trouble at work), do anti-aircraft systems use lasers to target? My question is, outside of this problem, has it been worth developing countermeasures and are there such systems available?

I took physics in college and we had glass specifically coated to reflect laser energy. Though granted, we were using some kind of low powered red laser.

But I would imagine that if anybody's going to have countermeasures for something like this, it'd be Air Force One.

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My concern is how a $5 penlight could completely disrupt a flight.
As was mentioned in the article, pointers used for lectures have neither the power nor the optics to pin-point an aircraft at any reasonable distance. Think target lasers bolted to rifles.
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Doesn't sound to me like this is something people are doing with the cheap laser pointer keychains they sell down at the local WalMart. A high-intensity green laser doesn't quite fit that description - so someone's going out, shelling out money for a fairly powerful laser, and shooting it at aircraft cockpits nationwide and in Europe...

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but this does sound like more than just a bunch of copycat ******* with a $5 laser pointer.

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Light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation (LASER or laser) is a mechanism for emitting electromagnetic radiation, typically light or visible light, via the process of stimulated emission. The emitted laser light is (usually) a spatially coherent, narrow low-divergence beam, that can be manipulated with lenses. In laser technology, "coherent light" denotes a light source that produces (emits) light of in-step waves of identical frequency, phase,[1] and polarization. The laser's beam of coherent light differentiates it from light sources that emit incoherent light beams, of random phase varying with time and position. Laser light is generally a narrow-wavelength electromagnetic spectrum monochromatic light; yet, there are lasers that emit a broad spectrum of light, or emit different wavelengths of light simultaneously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser

Polarizing. That's what they used to block it.

http://www.allaboutvision.com/sunglasses/polarized.htm

Unpolarized light gets through, but the laser gets reflected.

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Do you know what happened to Wings N' Things and OK Hobbies? I couldn't find either last time I was there.

They folded about 4 years ago. There is quite a few RC places in town but for plastic stuff, Hobby Town (in Tulsa) and Top Shelf models in Owasso are the places to go. Top shelf probably has the best selection within a few hundred miles of Tulsa.

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As was mentioned in the article, pointers used for lectures have neither the power nor the optics to pin-point an aircraft at any reasonable distance. Think target lasers bolted to rifles.

Bored rednecks.....hey bubba, lets point this laser pointer dealie at that plane-a-ma-jig.

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They folded about 4 years ago. There is quite a few RC places in town but for plastic stuff, Hobby Town (in Tulsa) and Top Shelf models in Owasso are the places to go. Top shelf probably has the best selection within a few hundred miles of Tulsa.

That sucks! I loved both of those stores, especially when Wings N Things was in the hole in the wall shop next to the barber shop and OK was in that cement block fortress they had off of Peoria.

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Bored rednecks.....hey bubba, lets point this laser pointer dealie at that plane-a-ma-jig.

If I had to speculate--and it's only that, of course--I'd go with this explanation, too. Boredom, extraordinarily cheap beer, and (following from the first two) speculative bravado--"I could take him out right now!" Not that it's any less dangerous. Ignorance, tragically, is often as or more dangerous than malice. I'm thinking of Bill Paxton's character in True Lies; People who have no idea just what they're involving themselves in.

Edited by Fishwelding
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My concern is how a $5 penlight could completely disrupt a flight.

From the sound of it. Does not sound like someone was using a cheap Penlight.

Sounds like someone was using Night vision Binos and a Laser Illuminator which would be a green beam.

Edited by Wayne S
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That sucks! I loved both of those stores, especially when Wings N Things was in the hole in the wall shop next to the barber shop and OK was in that cement block fortress they had off of Peoria.

I really like the "Ron's hamburgers" that is (or was) next door. I typically go to a different Rons burgers and my cardiologist told me I cannot drive within 5 blocks of any "Ron's".

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I really like the "Ron's hamburgers" that is (or was) next door. I typically go to a different Rons burgers and my cardiologist told me I cannot drive within 5 blocks of any "Ron's".

I don't know from Rons, but I loved the rootbeer floats at the A&W rootbeer stand with the nickel sign next to the music store down near where OK used to be.

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Broadly speaking, and to anyone who knows, (stay away from specifics, if it might get you in trouble at work), do anti-aircraft systems use lasers to target? My question is, outside of this problem, has it been worth developing countermeasures and are there such systems available?

The Swedish RBS-70 SAM uses a laser guided missile to home in on it's target. The Soviets fielded laser-guided tank munitions back in the cold war days that (I believe) could target helicopters in addition to tanks, not sure if they have any SAM's that are laser guided.

With regard to countermeasures, US Army helo's can be fitted with laser detectors that tell the crew which direction they are being painted from. The Rafael also has laser detectors. I don't believe there are any active countermeasures out there for aircraft short of getting some trees or a hill between you and the person painting you with the laser. That might work well for a helo, a bit less useful for a high performance jet.

I remember reading somewhere that there were visor's made for flight helmets that were supposed to offer some protection but the problem was that lasers operate on so many frequencies it was impossible to cover all of them.

Just my somewhat uninformed $0.02.

Regards,

John

Edited by 11bee
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The Swedish RBS-70 SAM uses a laser guided missile to home in on it's target. The Soviets fielded laser-guided tank munitions back in the cold war days that (I believe) could target helicopters in addition to tanks, not sure if they have any SAM's that are laser guided.

With regard to countermeasures, US Army helo's can be fitted with laser detectors that tell the crew which direction they are being painted from. The Rafael also has laser detectors. I don't believe there are any active countermeasures out there for aircraft short of getting some trees or a hill between you and the person painting you with the laser. That might work well for a helo, a bit less useful for a high performance jet.

I remember reading somewhere that there were visor's made for flight helmets that were supposed to offer some protection but the problem was that lasers operate on so many frequencies it was impossible to cover all of them.

Just my somewhat uninformed $0.02.

Regards,

John

In this case, the missile's are laser beam riders. The laser is used as a guidance mechanism and not as specific threat to the target aircraft/tank. Unfortunately, this form of guidance is very difficult to counter. The laser detector on aircraft let's the aircrew know that they are being painted and by what type (LRF or LBR).

Their are visors made to offer protection in the visible band and/or common freq.

VR,

Rodney

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This has been happening on and off at Sydney Airport now for over five years and has lately started happening at regional airporst as well. Sydney must be getting too hot for them as the police are right onto them and they know they won't get away with it. As Murph said, idiots. Fortunately a couple of those young idiots targeted the wrong helicopter one night a couple of years ago. They thought it was the Rescue chopper going out (why anyone would want to target a mercy flight I have no idea). Turns out they were sadly mistaken and the Police helicopter they had targeted turned his nightsun on them and followed them until they were caught by a foot patrol several blocks away.

When they faced the magistrate they were (apparently) contrite and claimed they didn't know about the dangers to aircraft and lives both in the aircraft and innocent people on the ground. Yeah, right they didn't. The stupid magistrate fell for their story and their false contrition and gave them a bond and some counselling sessions, which was promptly appealed by CASA the next day and overturned. They ended up in juvie for their trouble, even though it was their first offence. Thank goodness our civil aviation authorities here take such things seriously or we'd have idiots doing and getting away with it as they would with many other criminal offences, the revolving door syndrome. Although it's now illegal to sell lazer pointers to minors they can still get them into the country easily enough.

I was in a supermarket near my home a couple of years ago and felt a sharp sting on the back of my neck. I thought it was a mosquito and swiped at it, nothing. Some seconds later I felt it again and turned to see 2 juveniles targeting me with a lazer pointer. As I approached them they ran off down the aisle, around the corner and straight into the arms of the store security officer who promptly confiscated their pointer and kicked them out of the store with assistance from me and another off duty security officer into the custody of a couple of off duty police officers who happened to see what was going on and came to lend a hand. Our statements were enough to get these two clowns a bond, I didn't have to attend court. Imagind if they'd targeted the eyes of someone with eye problems the they didn't know about.

Ross.

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I don't know from Rons, but I loved the rootbeer floats at the A&W rootbeer stand with the nickel sign next to the music store down near where OK used to be.

Seriously guys? Come on! Stay on the subject or PM each other please.

Back to the topic...

I can speak on the protection issue as a current USAF flyer. We are issued protective goggles to wear, but as a rule they are not used in CONUS. Only when we are deployed. That said, they are very effective, but they suck. They really rob your night vision. Especially as an engineer, as I have to focus primarily on the aircraft system instruments as well as assist scanning outside the aircraft. They are worse than NVGs, and to be honest, we rarely wear them unless we know we are in a known laser threat environment.

Mark

Edited by F106A
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I was in a supermarket near my home a couple of years ago and felt a sharp sting on the back of my neck. I thought it was a mosquito and swiped at it, nothing. Some seconds later I felt it again and turned to see 2 juveniles targeting me with a lazer pointer. As I approached them they ran off down the aisle, around the corner and straight into the arms of the store security officer who promptly confiscated their pointer and kicked them out of the store with assistance from me and another off duty security officer into the custody of a couple of off duty police officers who happened to see what was going on and came to lend a hand. Our statements were enough to get these two clowns a bond, I didn't have to attend court. Imagind if they'd targeted the eyes of someone with eye problems the they didn't know about.

:cheers:

And you're giving me a hard time about infantrymen with slingshots... :D

Thanks Ross, that made my night...the "sharp sting on the back of my neck" was the best part.

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Broadly speaking, and to anyone who knows, (stay away from specifics, if it might get you in trouble at work), do anti-aircraft systems use lasers to target?

Well in Gulf War I there was this F-15E that took out an airborne Iraqi helicopter with an LGB - does that count? It was "anti-aircraft"... of the 2000 LB variety if I recall correctly...

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Broadly speaking, and to anyone who knows, (stay away from specifics, if it might get you in trouble at work), do anti-aircraft systems use lasers to target?

Generally, no. A quick scan through Jane's will show you that most systems are RADAR or IR guided. Naturally, there are exceptions: Bofors RBS-70 MANPADS

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They ended up in juvie for their trouble, even though it was their first offence. Thank goodness our civil aviation authorities here take such things seriously or we'd have idiots doing and getting away with it as they would with many other criminal offences, the revolving door syndrome. Although it's now illegal to sell lazer pointers to minors they can still get them into the country easily enough.

I was in a supermarket near my home a couple of years ago and felt a sharp sting on the back of my neck. I thought it was a mosquito and swiped at it, nothing. Some seconds later I felt it again and turned to see 2 juveniles targeting me with a lazer pointer. As I approached them they ran off down the aisle, around the corner and straight into the arms of the store security officer who promptly confiscated their pointer and kicked them out of the store with assistance from me and another off duty security officer into the custody of a couple of off duty police officers who happened to see what was going on and came to lend a hand. Our statements were enough to get these two clowns a bond, I didn't have to attend court. Imagind if they'd targeted the eyes of someone with eye problems the they didn't know about.

Ross.

It's also a problem in our public schools, has happened twice in my classroom. Many principals are reluctant to do anything serious about it until someone uses the magic phrases "Due diligence", "endangering child safety" and "potential lawsuit". Unfortunately, it will probably take an incident where an innocent child's eyesight is damaged and a (justifiably) outraged parent sues the school district for all they're worth before kids (and most importantly their parents) get the message - these are not toys. Some districts have taken it seriously enough that they are considered weapons ("great bodily harm" clause) and treated accordingly (police involvement).

Edited by Vpanoptes
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:rofl:

And you're giving me a hard time about infantrymen with slingshots... :D

Thanks Ross, that made my night...the "sharp sting on the back of my neck" was the best part.

Well, Waco, it did sting. Around here we have a breed of mosquito called the Hexham Grey. They're not your regular little black ones, but much larger grey ones, they can grow to over 1/2" long for the females and believe me when you get bitten by one of these you know about it. They're ferocious and persistant and if you get attacked by a bunch of them you come home with large red welts, that is if you're silly enough to go outside just on dusk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexham,_New_South_Wales

Of course the most famous Hexham Grey was the one called Ozzie the Mozzie up a pole at the Hexham Bowling Club.

Glad you got a bit of fun out it.

:whistle:,

Ross.

Edited by ross blackford
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It probably could've been pulled off with one of the class III laser pointers; I got one at the PX while deployed, and I was able to see the green dot on the building I was painting at over a mile away. Granted, that as the distance increases, so does the size of the beam. Mine is a green laser too; so I think it's entirely possible to do it depending on how far away the folks doing it were from the approaching aircraft. Granted, it's no $5 special from office max, mine cost me $92.00 (I was bored).

Funny story on that; I've been deployed to Kosovo, and when we were there we had Apache support (since I've left I heard that's not the case nowadays). Well, Apparently some Kosovo Police (KPS) officers thought it'd be neat to use their radar gun on one of our apache's as it was flying over cause they wanted to see how fast it was going; well, apparently theirs was laser, because as soon as they lazed it it swung around and started coming for them (since it was locked on to the source of the "laser"). Not only did they get scared ****less, they also got a good talking to from out general staff informing them of how close they came to getting their butts toasted, and not doing that again.

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Well, Waco, it did sting.

I find that incredibly hard to believe. In fact, I find that physically impossible. Unless these young hooligans were lugging a very heavy, extremely power thirsty weaponized laser system with them, there's not a chance in hades you would feel the illumination "spot" from a laser pointer on your skin. Perhaps you saw them pointing the thing around earlier, or you saw it with peripheral vision, and you thus created a psychological "awareness" that your body interpreted as "stinging."

Laser pointers do not generate the type of thermal intensity on their "spot" which would create pain, stinging, or even a heat sensation. They are, in fact, generally considered cold light sources. In fact, you'd need to get power levels exceeding 300mW to even be able to "feel" the laser spot, and you'd need something on the order of a 500mW laser to generate a sting/burn sensation.

Laser pointers have some very real dangers associated with them, but, as this Princeton University Environmental Health and Safety Report discusses, "the hazards of laser pointers are limited to the eye." There is no way an individual would be able to feel a laser spot on their skin unless it was A - left in place for an exceedingly long period of time or B - it was an exceedingly high power laser (not the case with most pocket/pen laser pointers). Now if said young ruffians were pointing them at your eyes, I most certainly would believe you felt discomfort.

While I've no doubt you have some nastly little mosquitoes (I'd measure up your Alaskan standard skeeters or black flies for annoyance any day of the week though), there's no physical way a laser pointer (even class 3B) is capable of generating a similar physical sensation. It is darn near impossible.

Thanks though, your flair for embellishment has been much appreciated by the site, and I believe you'd make a fine addition to the American West tradition of Tall Tale Tournaments. Y'all feel free to drop on by with another fine whopper of a yarn any time ya like, Mistah Ross Blackford!

Edited by Waco
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Now I'm no expert, but have to agree with Waco on this. Been to lots of different places around this dirt circle and nothing that i've seen compares to Alaska's skeeters, black flies, no-see-ums and white socks. Especially in Interior Alaska. Black flies and no-see-ums and white socks seem to be the worst, as unlike skeeters they don't fly off after detecting bug dope on your skin...instead they'll crawl around until they find a spot that doesn't have bug dope and start to chew away....and THAT'S the first time you feel them so the damage is done.

Case in point: Got lucky one year and knocked over a swamp donkey (moose) for the freezer early in the season. It was early in the morning with no bugs around so I took off the long sleeve fleece and proceeded to field-strip ole mossy horns in a short sleeve t-shirt. When all was said and done I had so many bites on both arms below the upper arm that my forearms swolle up to scary proportions.

Once while on a float trip on a tundra stream they were so bad we had to time our...well....daily constitutionals for late night or early morning as it was the only way to avoid bites in a certain body region, as the bugs were not as active while the temps were low. Thank god we had duct tape (button fly trousers...NOT GOOD!).

Oh, and somewhat back on target, was visiting the future wife late one evening in a not so nice part of West Anchorage. Got out of the truck and immediately felt a sensation like something was in my right eye. Not pain mind you but like when one of your eyebrow or eyelash hairs is stuck right in front of your eye. Saw a red dot behind a car on the other side of the cul-d-sac and went tactical. Drew the Kimber .45 at condition one fully thinking someone was drawing down on me, and announced out loud that I was armed, drawn and was about to call the police. This 30 something year old dirtbag yells back "dude, just messin around". I told him he just about left this world with more holes than he came into it with.

Seriously, Not something to be screwing around with.

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Oh, and somewhat back on target, was visiting the future wife late one evening in a not so nice part of West Anchorage. Got out of the truck and immediately felt a sensation like something was in my right eye. Not pain mind you but like when one of your eyebrow or eyelash hairs is stuck right in front of your eye. Saw a red dot behind a car on the other side of the cul-d-sac and went tactical. Drew the Kimber .45 at condition one fully thinking someone was drawing down on me, and announced out loud that I was armed, drawn and was about to call the police. This 30 something year old dirtbag yells back "dude, just messin around". I told him he just about left this world with more holes than he came into it with.

Seriously, Not something to be screwing around with.

Here, here Fred,

And I still believe that I actually felt this thing on the back of my neck, without previously seeing it and the kids seemed to think it was a great joke until I approached them, then it was no longer a joke. The store security officer told me he'd had complaints and good descriptions from four other people about these two kids so he went looking for them and had found them before the other people did. I was just lucky that he was around the corner of the aisle when they ran away from me and that they turned the right way for him to grab them.

Waco,

What you say about a standard legal laser pointer is not in question here but I know they can be modified and souped up kind of like a car can and this one was a red beam, the security officer showed me and the police officers as we handed the kids over. At that time red pointers were already illegal in NSW, as told by the police who held these two urchins until their on duty colleagues arrived to take them into custody. Who's to say this thing hadn't been modified or that it wasn't an older model from China or somewhere that has, or had no standards at the time it was imported here. I don't know the answers to either of those questions but there are a number of youtube vids showing how to modify a standard pointer into a much more powerful one. Any kid with internet access can make an IED, as has been shown in Australia recently when a kid had a hand blown off making one in his parents house while they weren't there so why not use the internet to gain knowledge on how to modify a laser pointer to give it a much greater output? Have a look at this vid;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HscvH8UWEw&feature=fvw

I'm no expert on laser pointers but you'll see that the further the laser is away from the match head the quicker the match head seems to flame. That's just one vid. Oh, and BTW, I'm honing my embellishment skills for a career in politics. :D

:(,

Ross.

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