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Very easy to find folks who felt that this was a shortsighted mistake, however the majority of them aren't high level AF officials (or maybe I just never found their statements). I though the AF higher-ups typically held to the "party line" on this subject.

Fact is the F-22 was eating the crap out of the AF budget. Funny how all of a sudden nostalgia kicks in. It was cold, hard, cash that killed the Raptor. Every senior AF official who knew or cared Jack squat about the budget knew it was an unsustainable program once the final cut was made.

That CSAF Mosely was too stupid or just had a fighter pilot hard on to see that is a big part of why he got canned.

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Very easy to find folks who felt that this was a shortsighted mistake, however the majority of them aren't high level AF officials (or maybe I just never found their statements). I though the AF higher-ups typically held to the "party line" on this subject.

http://media.giphy.com/media/qQxevLZrrxRle/giphy-facebook_s.jpg

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
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Even LEGO's hopping onto the F-35 bandwagon...

31039-1.jpg?201505131051

Though it's been modified into a two-seater, and the colors are a near-ripoff of 1984 Transformers Thundercracker... LOL

On sale at Toys R Us for $10,000.

Note that the legos don't currently work very well, something about not sticking to each other...

This is a known problem and really isn't that big of a deal. Any toy that pushes the fun factor this much is going to have minor issues like that. The good news for little Jimmy is that LEGO Corp promise the toy will be completely functional by the time he graduates from college. The bad news for little Jimmy is that to get his upgraded, completely functional toy, he will have to send LEGO Corp another check for $25,000.

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ROFLMAO! Especially with how LEGO Fanboiz can rival the most rabid Hornet Mafia Cultists in the Bitchy Little Girl department... seriously, apparently there's an unposted First Commandment on some sites about "Thou Shalt Never Criticize the Holy LEGO in Even The Slightest Most Trivial Way."

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Very easy to find folks who felt that this was a shortsighted mistake, however the majority of them aren't high level AF officials (or maybe I just never found their statements). I though the AF higher-ups typically held to the "party line" on this subject.

From Defense: FY2010 Authorization and Appropriations, page 36-37;

Secretary Gates recommended no further procurement of F-22s, thus ending the program at 187 planes - the 183 funded thus far plus four planes requested in the FY2009 supplemental appropriation.

Ending production at 183 matched the program of record for the F-22 Raptor; the four additional aircraft requested are intended to replace combat aicraft losses. In follow-on comments, Secretary Gates stated that advice from Combatant Commanders and the Air Force indicated "no military requirement for F-22s beyond...187." Air Force Chief of Staff, General Norton Schwartz, stated during his confirmation hearings in 2008 that the right number of F-22 aircraft was greater than 183 but less than the 381 that the Air Force had been arguing for. However, he subsequently avoided public statements on the matter. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, said in December 2008 that the Air Force had discussed with him a plan to purchase 60 additional aircraft, but deferred further discussions to the new Presidential administration.

On April 13, 2009 the Air Force's civilian and military leadership, acknowledging the difficult budget environment and the new risk assessments by DoD, formally endorsed Secretary Gates's proposal to complete F-22 procurement at 187 aircraft. Congress added to the budget request $523 million that could be used for advanced procurement of an additional lot of F-22s should the administration choose to do so.

Gates had a hard-on about fighting the last war, the kind of war that we shouldn't be fighting in the first place - a long, drawn out land war in Asia. And he was so hell-bent on forging the military to fight that war, that he was willing to sacrifice systems needed for the next generation. As for the Pacific theater, Gates maintained that China will not be able to field a similar plane until about 2025, at which time the US would have more than 1,700 F-35s. Gates believed that the F-35 was just as good as the F-22 in air superiority, and at a far lower cost. I'll give you a moment to let that sink in.

This was back when critics complained that F-22 was a Cold War weapon and Russia was saying that they would support UN sanctions against Iran and not sell the S300 system to Tehran. Six years later, Moscow's selling S300s to Iran and the J-20 is far ahead of the T-50 in development.

Jump forward to 2013 when Vice-Chairman of the Joint Staff Adm. James “Sandy” Winnefeld raised hackles among the serving and retired officers gathered at the headquarters of the powerful Association of the US Army when he said the nation would probably not need an Army-sized force to do any large-scale, long-duration ground operations. The admiral did not only downplay the possibility of prolonged counterinsurgencies like Afghanistan, Iraq, or Vietnam, although he certainly emphasized the decline of COIN: He raised doubt about long wars of any kind.

“I’m talking about a national commitment on a large scale to a long-term combat operation,” Winnefeld said when a skeptical soldier pressed him on the point during the question-and-answer session. “We just don’t see that happening in the near future. But we do need to hedge that bet by keeping enough capacity in case that’s wrong.”

“Marty (General Martin Dempsey, US Army and current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) and I both would say that the nation needs to keep the capacity to defeat another nation on the ground… if nothing more than as a deterrent, but we don’t see that as being a long fight. We can’t afford it,” he went.

“I simply don’t know where the security interests of our nation are threatened enough to cause us to cause us to lead a future major, extended COIN campaign,” he continued, “though we were very well might provide support to a nation fighting its own COIN campaign, as we continue to do today in Colombia. The President himself made it clear in his Defense Strategic Guidance that we will retain some capability for COIN, but only on a limited scale.”

And from the most recent National Security Strategy, which is released by the President and serves as the source document for all military and force structure planning reveals the emphasis point: "Advance our rebalance to Asia and the Pacific" and "Ensure access to the global commons of cyber, space, air, and maritime environs."

The Quadrenniel Defense Review, National Defense Strategy, and National Military Strategy all build from the guidance in the National Security Strategy. From the QDR:

"
Air/Sea

We will continue to invest in combat aircraft, including fighters and long-range strike, survivable persistent surveillance, resilient architectures, and undersea warfare to increase the Joint Force’s ability to counter A2/AD challenges"

That's the guidance the AF has to plan it's force with.

Also from the QDR:

"Maintaining an Air Force with global power projection capabilities crucial for this updated defense strategy.
We will modernize next-generation Air Force combat equipment – including fighters and bombers – particularly against advancing modern air defense systems
. To free resources for these programs as well as to preserve investments in critical capabilities, the Air Force will reduce or eliminate capacity in some single-mission aviation platforms. If sequestration-level cuts are imposed in FY2016 and beyond, the Air Force would have to retire 80 more aircraft, slow down purchases of the Joint Strike Fighter, and make other difficult adjustments."

Finally, the NMS outlines this gem:

"
Balancing for a broad spectrum of conflict.

Future conflicts could range from hybrid contingencies against proxy groups using asymmetric approaches, to a high-end conflict against a state power armed with WMD or technologically advanced anti-access and area-denial (A2/AD) capabilities. Reflecting this diverse range of challenges, the
U.S. military will shift focus in terms of what kinds of conflicts it prepares for in the future, moving toward greater emphasis on the full spectrum of possible operations
"

Good thing we got all the F-22s we needed...oh, wait...

giphy-2.gif

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DC, both civil and military, is like a toilet bowl: the biggest and fattiest turds float to the top, and it's overdue for a flush.

We live in a country where we have to remind people not to leave their kids or animals locked in cars on a hot day. Flush all you want, we'll poop out more.

Edited by Trigger
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Gates had a hard-on about fighting the last war, the kind of war that we shouldn't be fighting in the first place - a long, drawn out land war in Asia. And he was so hell-bent on forging the military to fight that war, that he was willing to sacrifice systems needed for the next generation. As for the Pacific theater, Gates maintained that China will not be able to field a similar plane until about 2025, at which time the US would have more than 1,700 F-35s. Gates believed that the F-35 was just as good as the F-22 in air superiority, and at a far lower cost. I'll give you a moment to let that sink in.

Gates was focused on the current war, not the last war nor future wars against nation states. How did he forge the military to fight the war? How did he direct BDE, DIV, and Combatant Commanders to conduct whatever type of warfare you claim? When did Gates say the F-35 was just as good as the F-22?

This was back when critics complained that F-22 was a Cold War weapon and Russia was saying that they would support UN sanctions against Iran and not sell the S300 system to Tehran. Six years later, Moscow's selling S300s to Iran and the J-20 is far ahead of the T-50 in development.

Jump forward to 2013 when Vice-Chairman of the Joint Staff Adm. James “Sandy” Winnefeld raised hackles among the serving and retired officers gathered at the headquarters of the powerful Association of the US Army when he said the nation would probably not need an Army-sized force to do any large-scale, long-duration ground operations. The admiral did not only downplay the possibility of prolonged counterinsurgencies like Afghanistan, Iraq, or Vietnam, although he certainly emphasized the decline of COIN: He raised doubt about long wars of any kind.

“I’m talking about a national commitment on a large scale to a long-term combat operation,” Winnefeld said when a skeptical soldier pressed him on the point during the question-and-answer session. “We just don’t see that happening in the near future. But we do need to hedge that bet by keeping enough capacity in case that’s wrong.”

“Marty (General Martin Dempsey, US Army and current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) and I both would say that the nation needs to keep the capacity to defeat another nation on the ground… if nothing more than as a deterrent, but we don’t see that as being a long fight. We can’t afford it,” he went.

“I simply don’t know where the security interests of our nation are threatened enough to cause us to cause us to lead a future major, extended COIN campaign,” he continued, “though we were very well might provide support to a nation fighting its own COIN campaign, as we continue to do today in Colombia. The President himself made it clear in his Defense Strategic Guidance that we will retain some capability for COIN, but only on a limited scale.”

And from the most recent National Security Strategy, which is released by the President and serves as the source document for all military and force structure planning reveals the emphasis point: "Advance our rebalance to Asia and the Pacific" and "Ensure access to the global commons of cyber, space, air, and maritime environs."

The Quadrenniel Defense Review, National Defense Strategy, and National Military Strategy all build from the guidance in the National Security Strategy. From the QDR:

"
Air/Sea

We will continue to invest in combat aircraft, including fighters and long-range strike, survivable persistent surveillance, resilient architectures, and undersea warfare to increase the Joint Force’s ability to counter A2/AD challenges"

That's the guidance the AF has to plan it's force with.

Also from the QDR:

"Maintaining an Air Force with global power projection capabilities crucial for this updated defense strategy.
We will modernize next-generation Air Force combat equipment – including fighters and bombers – particularly against advancing modern air defense systems
. To free resources for these programs as well as to preserve investments in critical capabilities, the Air Force will reduce or eliminate capacity in some single-mission aviation platforms. If sequestration-level cuts are imposed in FY2016 and beyond, the Air Force would have to retire 80 more aircraft, slow down purchases of the Joint Strike Fighter, and make other difficult adjustments."

Finally, the NMS outlines this gem:

"
Balancing for a broad spectrum of conflict.

Future conflicts could range from hybrid contingencies against proxy groups using asymmetric approaches, to a high-end conflict against a state power armed with WMD or technologically advanced anti-access and area-denial (A2/AD) capabilities. Reflecting this diverse range of challenges, the
U.S. military will shift focus in terms of what kinds of conflicts it prepares for in the future, moving toward greater emphasis on the full spectrum of possible operations
"

Good thing we got all the F-22s we needed...oh, wait...

So if this is how we or the J8 develop our Force Structure...the question is should our strategy be based on budget or should our budget be based on strategy?

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From Defense: FY2010 Authorization and Appropriations, page 36-37;

Gates had a hard-on about fighting the last war, the kind of war that we shouldn't be fighting in the first place - a long, drawn out land war in Asia. And he was so hell-bent on forging the military to fight that war, that he was willing to sacrifice systems needed for the next generation. As for the Pacific theater, Gates maintained that China will not be able to field a similar plane until about 2025, at which time the US would have more than 1,700 F-35s. Gates believed that the F-35 was just as good as the F-22 in air superiority, and at a far lower cost. I'll give you a moment to let that sink in.

This was back when critics complained that F-22 was a Cold War weapon and Russia was saying that they would support UN sanctions against Iran and not sell the S300 system to Tehran. Six years later, Moscow's selling S300s to Iran and the J-20 is far ahead of the T-50 in development.

And exactly what can a F-22 do against the S-300, which is one of the systems the F-35 is designed to defeat? Fire an AMRAAM at it? Gates was also a business man, and saw the secastrastration cuts coming. the F-22 was simply, and still borders on, unaffordable. It has the older style stealth coatings and seam work, like the B-2, that is hideously expensive and manpower/time intensive to use. They give out Airman of the Year Awards to the guy who can shave cure times down to under a day.

Jump forward to 2013 when Vice-Chairman of the Joint Staff Adm. James “Sandy” Winnefeld raised hackles among the serving and retired officers gathered at the headquarters of the powerful Association of the US Army when he said the nation would probably not need an Army-sized force to do any large-scale, long-duration ground operations. The admiral did not only downplay the possibility of prolonged counterinsurgencies like Afghanistan, Iraq, or Vietnam, although he certainly emphasized the decline of COIN: He raised doubt about long wars of any kind.

“I’m talking about a national commitment on a large scale to a long-term combat operation,” Winnefeld said when a skeptical soldier pressed him on the point during the question-and-answer session. “We just don’t see that happening in the near future. But we do need to hedge that bet by keeping enough capacity in case that’s wrong.”

“Marty (General Martin Dempsey, US Army and current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) and I both would say that the nation needs to keep the capacity to defeat another nation on the ground… if nothing more than as a deterrent, but we don’t see that as being a long fight. We can’t afford it,” he went.

“I simply don’t know where the security interests of our nation are threatened enough to cause us to cause us to lead a future major, extended COIN campaign,” he continued, “though we were very well might provide support to a nation fighting its own COIN campaign, as we continue to do today in Colombia. The President himself made it clear in his Defense Strategic Guidance that we will retain some capability for COIN, but only on a limited scale.”

And from the most recent National Security Strategy, which is released by the President and serves as the source document for all military and force structure planning reveals the emphasis point: "Advance our rebalance to Asia and the Pacific" and "Ensure access to the global commons of cyber, space, air, and maritime environs."

The Quadrenniel Defense Review, National Defense Strategy, and National Military Strategy all build from the guidance in the National Security Strategy. From the QDR:

"
Air/Sea

We will continue to invest in combat aircraft, including fighters and long-range strike, survivable persistent surveillance, resilient architectures, and undersea warfare to increase the Joint Force’s ability to counter A2/AD challenges"

That's the guidance the AF has to plan it's force with.

You're kind of stringing a bunch of unrelated stuff together here like it somehow proves it was J.Edgar Hoover on the grassy knoll or something...and completely ignore the FACT that the F-22 was EATING THE ENTIRE AF BUDGET. What part of that are people not getting? We were killing other, needed development programs; the A-10 was retired (the first time) before it was revived, our bomber fleet was slashed, squadrons were being shut down, all so CSAF Mosely could keep popping F-22 Viagra pills. Blame Gates, Obama, FDR, whomever, but the reality is the program was bankrupting the entire AF.

Also from the QDR:

"Maintaining an Air Force with global power projection capabilities crucial for this updated defense strategy.
We will modernize next-generation Air Force combat equipment – including fighters and bombers – particularly against advancing modern air defense systems
. To free resources for these programs as well as to preserve investments in critical capabilities, the Air Force will reduce or eliminate capacity in some single-mission aviation platforms. If sequestration-level cuts are imposed in FY2016 and beyond, the Air Force would have to retire 80 more aircraft, slow down purchases of the Joint Strike Fighter, and make other difficult adjustments."

Finally, the NMS outlines this gem:

"
Balancing for a broad spectrum of conflict.

Future conflicts could range from hybrid contingencies against proxy groups using asymmetric approaches, to a high-end conflict against a state power armed with WMD or technologically advanced anti-access and area-denial (A2/AD) capabilities. Reflecting this diverse range of challenges, the
U.S. military will shift focus in terms of what kinds of conflicts it prepares for in the future, moving toward greater emphasis on the full spectrum of possible operations
"

Good thing we got all the F-22s we needed...oh, wait...

The cult of the F-22 has. to. stop. Yes, it is the MOST kick fool A2A fighter EVAH!!!!! Got it, and agree. But that is also ALL it is. It doesn't play nicely with the rest of the joint force,and to retrofit it to do so would be a multi billion exercise that would also, BTW, this would be done by Northrop Grumman and Lockheed, the dream team currently cobbling the F-35 together. It was a single point design, to do basically one thing--distribute MiG parts. To make it doe something else, like the F/B-22 nonsense Uncle Fester floated to keep it alive, was also insane and insanely expensive. The F-35 addresses many of the shortfalls the F-22 has that prevent it from being a true force multiplier or leveraging the investment we have in still functional and capable 4th gen systems.

All that said, we will continue and need the development of a single mission/capability platform in broad terms with Long Range Strike. The capability of reaching out and touching someone far, far away will always be needed. Otherwise, multi role is what we can afford.

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Mark - I find your comments on the F-22 interesting. As far as being just a one trick pony, the F-22 now has A2G capability (as was seen against those fearsome ISIS air defense systems). I know that it's stealth has drawbacks compared to the F-35 but supercruise at a very high altitiude also provides some defensive advantage compared to the F-35, no?

Even when the F-35 comes fully online, does anyone really expect it to perform the air dominace role?

I get the reason why the F-22 was curtailed but I still thought it offered some incredibly valuable attriibutes compared to the other platforms out there. Maybe I read wrong but it almost seemed like you are suggesting that the F-22 doesn't have a place in the future force, which in your view seems to be mutli-role (read F-35) and the LRS system.

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Yah.. what a shocker..

you do realize these pictures were selected to be released and many other weren't for just those reasons?

Even when the F-35 comes fully online, does anyone really expect it to perform the air dominace role?

Yes, many people expect that. Why is it so incomprehensible?

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And exactly what can a F-22 do against the S-300, which is one of the systems the F-35 is designed to defeat?

You have no idea what you're talking about. Taking down double-digit SAMs is a tactical task F-22s have been practicing for YEARS now. The tactics have been practiced, refined, and validated many times over. Hell, I flew in the first series of TDEs designed specifically for this exact DEAD mission back in 2005/2006. The capabilities of Inc3.1 greatly enhanced this capability, and make the Raptor very, very capable in this realm. While it still has no EO/IR ground targeting options, the SAR map capabilities of the F-22 give it a very, very credible air-to-ground employment option for the deep fight in an access-denied area. Yes, it's limited to a certain class of targets that are locatable via SAR, and you can't optically pick out a certain target....but against SAM batteries, C2, radar arrays, etc (basically, anything you can identify from a SAR picture), the Raptor has very good breakout capability and excellent targeting capability. And they're routinely using these capabilities daily over Syria, both to drop weapons themselves and to provide target cueing to other aircraft.

It doesn't play nicely with the rest of the joint force,and to retrofit it to do so would be a multi billion exercise

There's about a half dozen technical solutions already in the field that work around data transferring off the Raptor and into 4th Gen cockpits. The Raptor can already take info from other platforms and use it for targeting. That's being pushed to the field as we speak, part of the Inc3.2A enhancements. The reverse is also in work. 5th-to-4th Gen gateways have flown operationally for several years, and more robust variants have been exercised at some very high level, very large force events as well. If it's really needed, there are workarounds. There's also the more permanent solution, Link-16 transmit, which is already POM funded, technical solution written, and scheduled on the calendar. Also, there's this thing called a radio, which has worked pretty well for coordinating across platforms for a few years or so, I hear. Granted, it's not as efficient as machine-to-machine interface through network sharing, but if you practice it enough (like the Multi-Force Fighter Ops exercises that have practiced integrating a small number of F-22s with a larger force of 4th Gen fighters for...oh, 10 years or so), you get pretty good at it.

older style stealth coatings and seam work, like the B-2, that is hideously expensive and manpower/time intensive to use

Nothing like the B-2. A full generation and a half of improvements. Still expensive, and still manpower/time intensive, but improving all the time. Still nothing like the B-2.

Yes, it is the MOST kick fool A2A fighter EVAH!!!!! Got it, and agree. But that is also ALL it is.

Wrong. See above. That's what it was designed to do, originally, but we've sunk a lot of money and technological improvements into making it MUCH more than that, and despite your glorious F-35 rose colored glasses, anyone who has EVER worked with F-22s in a Joint environment walks away with a solid appreciation for exactly how much of a force multiplier it really is. Even without firing a single shot, F-22s can make a 4th Gen strike package significantly more effective. Proven, repeatedly, to include in real-world operations now.

completely ignore the FACT that the F-22 was EATING THE ENTIRE AF BUDGET.

Whether anyone agrees with this statement or not, please explain to me what exactly the F-35 is doing to the ENTIRE JOINT FORCES BUDGET? Because last time I checked, an awful lot of money from all services was being diverted to support the F-35.

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