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Oh noes! Canada in Crisis!! The Liberals are coming, the Liberals are coming...oh wait, they already came. And yet the Blue Jays are still going to lose today.

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2015/10/20/Canada-election-results-threaten-F-35-program/4971445365571/

http://fortune.com/tag/f-35/

I know there is some commonality, but to say the SuperHornet "fits into" the existing CF-18 fleet is a bit of a stretch.

Only thing the Super Hornet has in common with the Legacy Hornet is the paint job. I've had many discussions with friends who are currently flying the CF-18 and they all agree that one aircraft fits our requirements.....and it's not the Super Hornet, Rafale, Gripen. Getting anything our of Europeans that support for those aircraft is overseas, which really isn't ideal. Add to that, most of our pilots might not actually fit into the cockpit of the Rafale. Add to that, all of the software changes needed just so the Rafale and Gripen can carry the weapons we currently have in our inventory. As well, with the Super Hornet production line shutting down soon, that aircraft is: a) an older airframe; b)Is going to be replaced by what? That's right.....the F-35.

What a lot of people up here are looking at are dollar signs. A lot of people can't seem too, or won't try to understand the capability that the F-35 brings to the RCAF. If we buy anything other than the F-35, we're looking at potentially having to replace our aircraft again in 15 years or so. Seems stupid, right? A lot of the bad press.....it's just that. Bad reporting. Not one report has focused on the successes of the aircraft, so all we're left with is the bad stuff, and a lot of Canadians are drinking the Kool-Aid.

But, I fear, as some others do, that we will not get the F-35 and possibly no replacement at all. If Trudeau were to go back on that promise, it would be political suicide. The only hope is, since it wasn't a main campaign focus (really, I think it was only really mentioned once during his campaign), Trudeau's advisors and DND could read him into the program a bit more and hopefully sell him on the F-35. I don't see it happening though.

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There's a big difference between:

Worth noting the same thing happened in Australia and they did a 360 and ran right at the JSF after they realized what it was.

and

LMGTFY. Seriously, Google "Australia reconsiders F-35". It's not like there is some mysterious source here, unless you count Reuters.

2011 timeframe.

I agree with Shane- BS.

Why trust the media, Mark? If you google F-35 Project Review you can get the government site that gives some results (others are probably excluded for security reasons) of other, similar reviews from Defence and other government departments. The government and Capability Acquisition and Sustainment Group (formerly DMO) periodically review all major projects (and many others) to see if they are making progress, blowing budget/schedule or are performing so badly they need to be put on the Projects of Concern watch list (like Wedgetail: http://www.defence.gov.au/defencenews/stories/2012/dec/1212a.htm). I went through reviews a couple of times when with DMO- not fun. An overview of one of the processes is here: http://www.finance.gov.au/publications/fmg-series/20-guidance-on-the-gateway-review-process.html

So it was a project review, which automatically looks at whether the project has viable alternatives to the current equipment choice (ie "reconsiders"). You could use emotive language (eg on a slow news day/ after a competitor's gun runner buys you a big, expensive dinner) saying Australia is reconsidering the F-35- and make it look like the ADF/DMO/pollies were getting cold feet. But even if true, how does that then become "the same thing happened in Australia and they did a 360 and ran right at the JSF after they realized what it was"? The then and now governments, RAAF and DMO know/knew what it is- expensive, unproven and controversial.

Just like every other major project.

Unlike the fanbois (LM employees?) and haters (Boeing employees?) I'm not game to pass judgement yet- I know too little. It will either be another F-111 or Sea Sprite for the ADF. Nobody else here can say which, either.

But it is entertaining watching the froth fly.

Dal.

Edited by Dal
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OK, so the difference is what question you are calling BS on. It is a fact Oz relooked the F-35 back in 2011, did a quick 360, and came right back to it. If you are disputing that is what happened, I cannot help you with your ignorance of what went down.

On to more News:

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/strike/2015/10/21/mccain-f35-reduce-total-buy/74350928/

Crazy Johnny back at it again. And by back at it, I mean hating on an Air Force program. Funny how he never scrutinized the Ford class carrier program the way he went after EVERY SINGLE AF PROGRAM EVER.

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It is a fact Oz relooked the F-35 back in 2011, did a quick 360, and came right back to it. If you are disputing that is what happened, I cannot help you with your ignorance of what went down.

So some American fanboi, who probably wouldn't be able to find R2 on a map (nor know what "R2" means), knows the way DMO/CASG does business better than someone who used to work there? You must read some fine INT material in the LM lunch room.

Whether it is jets, ships, tanks or satellite communications (my area), they all go through the same reviews, from 1st Pass until final acceptance. It's the same review process every major project goes through, some more often then most, and F-35 will likely go through it again. As with Wedgetail, Vigilare, LHD's, AWD's, etc ad nauseum, the review is also pumped up by the media and gun runners for their own purposes. Especially if the project is buying a controversial bit of kit.

What it was not was a scared pollie/project office/CAF looking desperately for alternatives to SuperJet, only to find out that only the almighty F-35 would save them. Which it the mistaken impression you and TT are trying to give.

Dal.

Edited by Dal
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:D, Someone working for LM saying that they know how the Australian DMO/CASG works better than a former Australian serviceman who used to work there is a bit rich really. That's just the same as me saying I know how that part of the Pentagon works better than someone who does or used to work there. Which would be a blatantly stupid and irrelevant statement.

:cheers:,

Ross.

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Oh, my little Oz friends. Ross, why is it you take at face value Dal as authentic and automatically assume I worked for LM?

I know what I know. You know nothing, and have drawn no obvious conclusions about who or what I am. But if it makes you all to feel better to make ad hominem attacks, more power to you.

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Dal and Ross stand by

As for Canada:

Only thing the Super Hornet has in common with the Legacy Hornet is the paint job. I've had many discussions with friends who are currently flying the CF-18 and they all agree that one aircraft fits our requirements.....and it's not the Super Hornet, Rafale, Gripen. Getting anything our of Europeans that support for those aircraft is overseas, which really isn't ideal. Add to that, most of our pilots might not actually fit into the cockpit of the Rafale. Add to that, all of the software changes needed just so the Rafale and Gripen can carry the weapons we currently have in our inventory. As well, with the Super Hornet production line shutting down soon, that aircraft is: a) an older airframe; b)Is going to be replaced by what? That's right.....the F-35.

What a lot of people up here are looking at are dollar signs. A lot of people can't seem too, or won't try to understand the capability that the F-35 brings to the RCAF. If we buy anything other than the F-35, we're looking at potentially having to replace our aircraft again in 15 years or so. Seems stupid, right? A lot of the bad press.....it's just that. Bad reporting. Not one report has focused on the successes of the aircraft, so all we're left with is the bad stuff, and a lot of Canadians are drinking the Kool-Aid.

But, I fear, as some others do, that we will not get the F-35 and possibly no replacement at all. If Trudeau were to go back on that promise, it would be political suicide. The only hope is, since it wasn't a main campaign focus (really, I think it was only really mentioned once during his campaign), Trudeau's advisors and DND could read him into the program a bit more and hopefully sell him on the F-35. I don't see it happening though.

Pre election, but still relevant:

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/richard-shimooka-the-f-35-is-still-our-best-bet

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/sole-sourcing-the-f-35-the-best-option-for-canada-says-analyst

Someone working for LM saying that they know how the Australian DMO/CASG works better than a former Australian serviceman who used to work there is a bit rich really. That's just the same as me saying I know how that part of the Pentagon works better than someone who does or used to work there. Which would be a blatantly stupid and irrelevant statement

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You know nothing, and have drawn no obvious conclusions about who or what I am. But if it makes you all to feel better to make ad hominem attacks, more power to you.

Calling me ignorant and then questioning my veracity isn't an ad hominem attack? I honestly though you worked for LM. If you don't then they should give you a PR retainer.

As for my bona fides, you can check with Dave Harvey (owns http://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/)- we served together in the early 90's and also worked together a couple of times when I was in DMO. Or you can ask on the ACTSMS Facebook page. There's a at least a couple of people that I worked/served with on that. Just tell them I'm a bad-tempered, pedantic old faht and they'll know it's me you're asking about.

I know what I know.

It must be liberating to be so wise. If this topic is to survive I'd best concede your outstanding knowledge of DMO operations and leave you to revel in all the things you know.

Dal and Ross stand by

Not hanging around, TT. Keep having fun, mate.

Dal.

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:D, Me either Dal. So if we're so ignorant MarkW, why don't you tell us who you are and what you do for a crust? We're all adults here and most of us have been open about what we do. Even Waco, and he would of all people be more subject to security requirements than most, yet he's been open and honest and also called into question your bona fides if I'm not mistaken a few months ago. So come on, we're all waiting to hear who you really are and what you do for a living. As Dal has said you come across as an "expert" who works for LM and I haven't seen any indication from you that you don't. If you're not why don't you just say so and say who you do work for. That's what I don't like about the net. People can purport to be anything they want to be and maybe aren't anything like they say they are but they can sure hide behind that persona. I don't have to pretend to anyone. I am what I am and I know what I know too. I still think this is a project that's become too big to fail, but, and it's a very big but, how much money do you keep throwing at it to make sure it doesn't fail and where and when do you say enough is enough.

:cheers:,

Ross.

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As opposed to claiming I'm something I'm not, I've consistently stated what I am not. I will never verify my background or experience, but at least have been clear when you have been wrong. I have repeatedly stated I do not and have never worked for LM. What conclusions you draw about me from the rest of my comments are up to you. At least a couple bright guys figured things out on their own.

As for Waco and the other pilots, I professionally disagree with their decision to state who they are. It puts them in a position of being possibly interpreted as an authoritative source but worse yet perceived as an official source. I never considered myself in a position to assume that responsibility for any organization I work or worked for. But hey, they are fighter pilots, what can you do? ;)

Dal, like all the other Ozians you cling to as experts has stated his experience. I'll take it at face value. He certainly has proven the bad temper bit by getting easily too worked up on a modeling forum. And for the record, I never questioned his veracity, but now I question his reading comprehension. But, not one mention of working specifically in the JSF program office, nor for that matter experience cited in the last decade. Yet he, like your retired F-111, Spitfire, or Sopwith Camel pilots know far more about the inside politics of the JSF program, the capabilities and limitations of a jet they've never touched let alone operated, or the disadvantages of 5th gen fighters compared to Super Flankers in your eyes. I can't help you on that, it is certainly your choice to make.

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:D, So you could be anything or anyone. Makes me even less likely now to believe anything you say unfortunately. I don't have the time to trawl through thousands of articles to verify your statements so I won't bother. You do however remind of a guy I worked with 14 years ago. He claimed to have been in the South African Police Force out on border patrols etc. But what interested me was that he always ended these claims with "But please don't ask me to tell you details of these operations. I can't. What we did was so secret." When I was sent to another site to work it turns out he's never been to Sth. Africa. He was in the Lebanese Army for 2 years as a conscript. But his stories sounded so good (to some) except for the bit at the end about it being so secret. Every time I heard that I grew more suspicious about him until I finally found out the truth. There was nothing secret about what "they did". At the time there was a very good documentary series on tv about all aspects of the Sth. African Police Force and how they operated including the border patrols. The media crew was embedded with the police officers during their duties because the police wanted people to know how they operated.

As for the retired Camel, Spitfire and F-111 pilots I don't know any of them. The Camel pilots are all dead, most of the Spitfire pilots are also and I don't know any former F-111 pilots. I do know a couple of F-18 drivers and a former F-18 driver and they are all still reserving their opinions on the F-35. I'd rather believe someone I know and trust than someone I don't and have never met and who refuses to tell us what he does for a living except that it's something where he knows how our Parliament and Defence Department works better than a couple of blokes who are Australian citizens used to work in Defence. Really. Give us a break mate. Unfortunately this leads me to not believe you to be in a position of any great knowledge or requiring much of a security clearence or you wouldn't be here talking about these things. You may be here but your ability to talk so openly would be virtually non-existant. You'd be allowed to talk about modelling related things and and pretty much nothing else for fear of losing your job and security clearance. There are certain aspects of my job as a humble hospital security officer that I'm not allowed to discuss outside the security office (or the boss's office) and I certainly won't bring them here, but at least everyone here knows who I am and what I do for a crust. I am allowed to say that I work for the NSW Health Department's Hunter-New England Local Health District. I know I'm not always right and when someone can quietly prove me wrong I'll admit my mistake and apologise. People get what they see. Oh, and by the way, I'm not getting heated up here, just saying what I think quietly and hopefully succinctly.

:cheers:,

Ross.

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:D, Maybe Check Six. Lebanon might be also. I was using that as an example of the kind of person I don't trust. Someone who is ultra secretive for no apparent good reason. And then you find out it was all BS from the start. You've probably heard of the Australian singer Olivia Newton-John. Her father was a member of Ultra (an MI5 cell) during WW2. The Allies were being slaughtered on Crete but were holding their own to the point the Germans started to get ready to pull out to give more support to the Greek and Balkans Campaignes. Ultra got wind of this and Professor Newton-John called the British General Officer Commanding and told him the Germans were getting ready to pull out and they should keep holding on. The GOC asked him who was speaking and was told he couldn't identify himself over the phone and the GOC said "well then, I don't know who you are so I'm not taking any notice of you. You could be a Nazi spy for all I know". As the Allies fell back the Germans realised what they were doing and launched an horrendous attack. Now in that case you can't blame either Newton-John for not identifying himslef nor the GOC for not believing him. Newton-John had his security reasons for not identifying himself and the GOC had his security reasons for not believing him and the result was a slaughter even worse than what had happened previously on Crete. Thousands of Allied soldiers were killed or captured as a result of "security". Sometimes "security" and "military intelligence" (now there's a contradiction in terms son) can actually do more harm than good. I actually heard that from Professor Newton-John himself in a radio interview years ago. He used to live here in Newcastle until his passing in 1992.

:cheers:,

Ross.

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:D, Thank you for the wonderful compliments Mark. Only a 30 to 60 day delay you say? 30 years ago we had a lecture form a team from the old department that became DMO on a new logistics system for the RAAF. It was going ot be all singing all dancing and do wonders for us and we were to see it with 5 years. When they'd finished telling us what this system would do for us they said "We call this "Tomorrow Land" and we came back at them with another Disney Land. We replied "Yeah fellas, and we call it Fantasy Land" It still hasn't happened and I'm not holding my breath.

:cheers:,

Ross.

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:D/>/>, Someone working for LM saying that they know how the Australian DMO/CASG works better than a former Australian serviceman who used to work there is a bit rich really. That's just the same as me saying I know how that part of the Pentagon works better than someone who does or used to work there. Which would be a blatantly stupid and irrelevant statement.

:cheers:/>/>,

Ross.

Speaking of stupid and irrelevant, could we have more Lebanon/NSW Hospital/Olivia newton john stories that give us insight into why you do or don't trust someone in a very convoluted way?

47grandpa.png

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
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Ross, why would you bring up an authentic artist like Olivia Newton-John when discussing frauds and skip over the obvious most recent example of a down under fraud in Ariana Grande?

I'm still a little confused as to how you compare me denying to be something with people who lie about being something. How is my denying to be an LM employee comparable to some guy who actually lied about being in the South African Army? Seems to my rational mind those are the exact opposite and actually not related. Proving a negative versus proving a positive, so to speak.

In actuality, you are the one making the outrageous and unsupported claims about who I am which immediately calls into question, along with basically everything else you've ever posted in this thread, the credibility of all of your opinions. You seem to be targeting me personally because I have not provided an extensive online resume to a plastic modeling forum of my experience working with the most advanced fighter jet on the planet.

Let's just let that soak in for a minute, and ponder how mind blowingingly ridiculous that whole thought is.

If it helps you to think of me as an evil LM employee, or some fan boy who is just making stuff up to feel good about himself, I can assure you it won't affect my day either way. I do encourage you to keep posting your stories which despite being complete non sequiturs are still at the very least entertaining. I will make an earnest effort to read past the first 3 paragraphs for future ones.

Back to news: the exact same situation as described by 2 different news agencies with completely different approaches. What a shock.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/10/22/Yet-Another-Costly-F-35-Glitch-Won-t-Be-Fixed-Any-Time-Soon

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/pentagon-says-f-35-ejection-seat-fixes-could-take-another-year/articleshow/49490889.cms

As a man who generally prefers curvier girls in the first place, I think the simple solution is to take the lightweight female pilots to the Golden Corral buffet at least twice a week. That endless chocolate fountain will easily resolve any weight disparity.

And Bogdan says the engine is fixed. Trust the man. If you believe he is real, that is.

http://www.courant.com/business/hc-ctm-f35-pratt-whitney-1023-20151022-story.html

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Anyone see this?

http://news.investors.com/business/102315-777104-close-air-support-showdown-f35-vs-a10-tests.htm

Need a dedicated thread for this one. Sure to provide months of fun for all ARC'ers.

After the dust has settled, DOD needs to run another series of tests:

F-35 vrs F-14

The ultimate battle. I give my vote to the Tom, if nothing else, just to honor the memory of Goose.

PS - I am in awe of the quick-acting ARC Mods. Nicely done boys!

Edited by 11bee
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Anyone see this?

http://news.investor...s-a10-tests.htm

Need a dedicated thread for this one. Sure to provide months of fun for all ARC'ers.

After the dust has settled, DOD needs to run another series of tests:

F-35 vrs F-14

The ultimate battle. I give my vote to the Tom, if nothing else, just to honor the memory of Goose.

PS - I am in awe of the quick-acting ARC Mods. Nicely done boys!

Man; It's hard to believe in less than 12 months it will be 10 years since we retired the beloved Tomcat.

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