Jump to content

Recommended Posts

12 hours ago, TaiidanTomcat said:

F-35Bs, F-15s and B-1s in a show of Force against North Korea. 

Impressive.   Surely that will put the fear of god into those wack jobs.   If that doesn't get them to cease and desist, we'll write a strongly worded letter.

 

th?id=OIP.BHwsIpGCeuOwQL5V6EkXfQEsEs&w=2

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 11bee said:

Impressive.   Surely that will put the fear of god into those wack jobs.   If that doesn't get them to cease and desist, we'll write a strongly worded letter.

 

th?id=OIP.BHwsIpGCeuOwQL5V6EkXfQEsEs&w=2

 

 

 That should more than  enough to wipe out several rogue countries 

emoticono_animado_aplausos_38_by_weapons_expert_cool-d6tmgkh.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...


$5.23 Billion = $290 mil per F-18

 

Compare to $138 million per F-35 (source KPMG Canada)

 

 

WASHINGTON, Sep. 12, 2017 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Canada of:
ten (10) F/A-18E Super Hornet aircraft, with F414-GE-400 engines;
eight (8) F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft, with F414-GE-400 engines;
eight (8) F414-GE-400 engine spares;
twenty (20) AN/APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars;
twenty (20) M61A2 20MM gun systems;
twenty-eight (28) AN/ALR-67(V)3 Electronic Warfare Countermeasures Receiving Sets;
fifteen (15) AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods;
twenty (20) Multifunctional Information Distribution Systems–Joint Tactical Radio System (MIDS-JTRS);
thirty (30) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
twenty-eight (28) AN/ALQ-214 Integrated Countermeasures Systems;
one hundred thirty (130) LAU-127E/A and or F/A Guided Missile Launchers;
twenty-two (22) AN/AYK-29 Distributed Targeting System (DTS);
twenty-two (22) AN/AYK-29 Distributed Targeting Processor (DTP);
one hundred (100) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II Tactical Missiles;
thirty (30) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM);
eight (8) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II Special Air Training Missiles (NATM);
twenty (20) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II Tactical Guidance Units;
sixteen (16) AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II CATM Guidance Units. 

Also included in this sale are AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles (NVG); AN/ALE-47 Electronic Warfare Countermeasures Systems; AN/ARC-210 Communication System; AN/APX-111 Combined Interrogator Transponder; AN/ALE-55 Towed Decoys; Joint Mission Planning System (JMPS); AN/PYQ-10C Simple Key Loader (SKL); Data Transfer Unit (DTU); Accurate Navigation (ANAV) Global Positioning System (GPS) Navigation; KIV-78 Duel Channel Encryptor, Identification Friend or Foe (IFF); CADS/PADS; Instrument Landing System (ILS); Aircraft Armament Equipment (AAE); High Speed Video Network (HSVN) Digital Video Recorder (HDVR); Launchers (LAU-115D/A, LAU-116B/A, LAU-118A); flight test services; site survey; aircraft ferry; auxiliary fuel tanks; aircraft spares; containers; storage and preservation; transportation; aircrew and maintenance training; training aids and equipment, devices and spares and repair parts; weapon system support and test equipment; technical data Engineering Change Proposals; technical publications and documentation; software; avionics software support; software development/integration; system integration and testing; U.S. Government and contractor engineering technical and logistics support; Repair of Repairable (RoR); repair and return warranties; other technical assistance and support equipment; and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated total case value is $5.23 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on September 11, 2017.

 

The Liberals pegged the cost of one F-35 at $175 million and one Super Hornet at $65 million...

 

Oh man they just missed it by $225 million. 

 

 

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
Link to post
Share on other sites

So basically Boeing and Canada are still in a spat and Boeing walked out of a meeting recently in fact.

 

So this is not officially bought. It's showing what canada is approved/plans (planned?) to buy regarding the now likely dead super hornet deal.

 

What's "amazing" to me is

 

1. The liberals got the cost wrong by an order of 225-235 million per plane for an "interim solution"

 

2. What myself and a few others were saying all along, that th3 F-35 is actually cheaper. And not by a little either, is basically confirmed.

 

3. Kpmg put 65 F-35s at a full acquisition cost of just under 9 billion. Or about 138 million per plane.

 

4. As recently as just last year liberals were claiming that the super hornet was 65 million to the F-35s 175 million. Neither of those numbers appears to be true, and even then 175 is less than 290. 

 

Many many vocal voices in Canada have been claiming the super hornet would cost "half" what an F-35 would.

 

5. As of two days ago Canada was looking at acquiring RAAF hornets as an interim measure of some sort. If even just for spares. This is a good thing because it's getting rather desperate. 

 

6. Gullibility levels are at 9000. For everyone the last 5 years who thought that super hornets were an easy out, and would cost less, or that boeing was your pal-- you got utterly suckered.

 

1e2md8.jpg

 

 

 

7. The liberals are determined not to look foolish about defence. This Is most likely because they are utterly foolish on defense. Can't go Boeing now, and trudeau can't pick the F-35, which would show just how silly he was. So option c is old hornets from elsewhere. 

 

8. This deal isn't even for the block iii hornets, but the older block II

 

Hope Canada sorts itself oot

 

 

 

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup those dang liberals always bad mouthing the cost of the F-35..

 

Weeks before being sworn in as president, Trump was vocal about an alternative to the Joint Strike Fighter, saying the “F-35 program and cost is out of control.”

“Based on the tremendous cost and cost overruns of the Lockheed Martin F-35, I have asked Boeing to price-out a comparable F-18 Super Hornet!” he tweeted Dec. 22.

 

After the speech Friday, Trump told reporters, “If the price doesn’t come down, we would” buy some F/A-18XTs to replace some F-35 orders. “The F-18’s a great plane and now put a stealth component onto it,” he said, according to a pool report from TIME’s White House correspondent Zeke Miller.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Petrov27 said:

Yup those dang liberals always bad mouthing the cost of the F-35..

 

Weeks before being sworn in as president, Trump was vocal about an alternative to the Joint Strike Fighter, saying the “F-35 program and cost is out of control.”

“Based on the tremendous cost and cost overruns of the Lockheed Martin F-35, I have asked Boeing to price-out a comparable F-18 Super Hornet!” he tweeted Dec. 22.

 

After the speech Friday, Trump told reporters, “If the price doesn’t come down, we would” buy some F/A-18XTs to replace some F-35 orders. “The F-18’s a great plane and now put a stealth component onto it,” he said, according to a pool report from TIME’s White House correspondent Zeke Miller.

 

We are talking Canada not the US. Liberal is referencing the party of Canada. Not the secondary moniker for Democrats in the United States. I hope this helps. 

 

 

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand we have to keep politics out of this very nicely and long running thread and I want to do that. In this case the Canadian CF-18 replacement is highly political and basically unavoidable. I'm not trying to pick a political fight or some silliness here. 

 

I name the liberals only because they were in great opposition to the F-35, and ran against it with an alternative that as of now actually looks worse. Much worse in fact. I have no interest in political bickering-- in this case its highlighting not so much politics but that SIDE A wanted the F-35 and SIDE B wanted something else, namely the Super Hornet by default. When Side B got a chance to activate its plan, after years of criticizing Side A, Side B was either lying, or grossly negligent in its assessments. quite Ironically and massively their alternative actually costs far more than they estimated, and even more than Side A's original plan. I'm not Canadian, I have no dog in the fight other than the aircraft. 

 

Side B played gutter politics and has no saddled themselves with an utter mess. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TaiidanTomcat said:

 

4. As recently as just last year liberals were claiming that the super hornet was 65 million to the F-35s 175 million. Neither of those numbers appears to be true, and even then 175 is less than 290. 

 

 


I'm sure you know that the price of an aircraft - any aircraft - can be (mis)quoted in so many ways as to make any valid cost comparison a case of apples and condoms.

 

Does that price include the engines?  the radar? the spares? the weapons? and especially, does it include ALL of the development costs, flight test, new hangars, simulators, etc. added up and amortized over all the airframes produced so far?.... or is it just the cost of the raw materials on the most recent jet built that benefited from all the economies of scale this far into a production run?

 

The possibilities, as they say, are endless.......

Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, habu2 said:

 


I'm sure you know that the price of an aircraft - any aircraft - can be (mis)quoted in so many ways as to make any valid cost comparison a case of apples and condoms.

 

Does that price include the engines?  the radar? the spares? the weapons? and especially, does it include ALL of the development costs, flight test, new hangars, simulators, etc. added up and amortized over all the airframes produced so far?.... or is it just the cost of the raw materials on the most recent jet built that benefited from all the economies of scale this far into a production run?

 

The possibilities, as they say, are endless.......

 

 

Well I would respond with 2 things:

 

A. The first is That I agree with the variance in cost analysis and unfair comparison. Thats my point. the fact that they compared US fly away cost for the super hornet, While taking the "full up" cost of the F-35 (and added a little-- 40 million-- more) shows they were already not measuring them fairly. It's very clear they used an unfair comparison. 

 

2. That's come to bite them in the rear end as they created a trap for themselves. Their 65 million dollar is now 290 million since it's finally on paper and can be compared fairly instead of political numbers, and of course is more than just fly away cost now obviously.

 

They got caught in their own lie. Had they said 88 million (kpmg fly away estimate) vs 65 million we would have something. Or 138 vs 130 or whatever. But they were lying, or let's say "bluffing" to be nice about it. Now the bluff has been called no one can claim those false numbers as fact. So I feel happy about that. After years of that BS number being floated to actively deceive the Canadian people, i hope they have sticker shock and ask some questions of those who spouted those lies FOR YEARS.

 

More than half the F-35 budget for 18 "interim fighters" is madness. And I hope that it's repugnant to everyone else. What's crazy is this probably would have gone through if not for the Boeing trade war. They did Canada a huge favor.

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 13/09/2017 at 10:02 PM, Flyboyf18 said:

How do you spell EH-101???

CH-149 ...... you asked 😂

 

Rather disappointed 10 single seaters and 8 duals going through for the SH. Much rather see F-35A. Not a signed deal yet..... keep our fingers crossed.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Now really OT..... we bought 9 VH-101 helos..... for pennies on the dollar. They say 7 are airworthy. How much did the project cost before it was cancelled. We are not the only ones not immune to stupidly. TT.... like I've said before as a modeller I look forward to the SH with Canadian Markings. As a taxpayer I'm pissed!

Edited by Emvar
Add not
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-09-13 at 8:54 PM, TaiidanTomcat said:

 

This will go down as the dumbest Canadian military procurement in history.

 

It will top the Liberals Sea King and EH-101 kerfuffles.

Edited by Scooby
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm asking this honestly.

 

Is it decision fatigue? I don't know how 65 F-35s for 9 billion for use of 42 years is controversial and gets delayed, but 18 super bugs for 5.2 billion as an "interim" is like "ahhh oh well ram it through" 

 

Is there any way politically this can be stopped even if Boeing and Canada mend fences? Is JT that much in drivers seat? 

 

And where saijan?

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...