Scooby Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 4 hours ago, 11bee said: Or maybe reminding Canadians that Bombardier isn’t the only aerospace employer north of the border? None of them have a very efficient and economical passenger jet in production. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Two days old news now, but the 4th Fighter Squadron ‘Fighting Fuujins’ as well as the 4th Aircraft Maintenance Unit received more F-35A's at Hill Air Force Base: http://www.sldinfo.com/hill-air-force-base-stands-up-new-f-35-squadron/ Hill now has 27 of an eventual 78 F-35's and should have its full complement by 2019. An older picture but love the two Lightning's together: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RedCrown Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/bombardier-sells-majority-stake-in-c-series-to-airbus/article36610340/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com& Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Emvar Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Wow..... talk about jumping the tariff by building in the US. I'm sure the orders will start coming in. Now back to the topic at hand buying F-35A for Canada. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 49 minutes ago, RedCrown said: https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/bombardier-sells-majority-stake-in-c-series-to-airbus/article36610340/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com& Interesting turn of events. Pretty much means the end of commercial aircraft production under a Canadian business and (as important to BA as it is to Airbus), it keeps the duopoly alive. At least for a bit longer, until Embraer starts to challenge them. Will be interesting to see if Airbus actively markets the C-Series or just lets it die a natural death while it pushes it's A319 as a logical alternative? If this ends the dumping claim, I wonder if that puts the final nail in the coffin for any Canadian F-35 purchase? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Interesting. Not sure if Bombardier really won much in this aside from continued existence for the time being but time will tell. But as far as the F-35 goes, even if Boeing drops its case against Bombardier isn't the damage already done in terms of Canada buying interim SH's from them? I mean nothing was resolved diplomatically between Boeing and Bombardier so the bad blood between them should still exist. Is JT going to simply say "Meh, problem solved. Airbus took care of it for me. Now Boeing, about those SH's...". After all the uproar and anti-Boeing rhetoric the last few weeks it will be interesting to watch the spin... I see the push for the used RAAF Hornets continuing. Despite the fact they aren't for immediate sale it allows for more can kicking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Hillarious , Boeing awoke a sleeping giant. Dumb move by Boeing from Day 1. Boeing didn’t want Airbus involved. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 8 hours ago, Scooby said: Hillarious , Boeing awoke a sleeping giant. Dumb move by Boeing from Day 1. Boeing didn’t want Airbus involved. I think what Boeing really wanted was to ensure that another company didn’t end up challenging their critical narrow body product line. Maybe not with the current C Series but possibly with later stretches or all new designs. I’d say they got what they wanted. No way Airbus will ever permit the C-Series to grow, it would also encroach on its own products. Airbus will nurture the C-Series the same way Boeing nurtured the 717. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dmanton300 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 5 hours ago, 11bee said: I think what Boeing really wanted was to ensure that another company didn’t end up challenging their critical narrow body product line. Maybe not with the current C Series but possibly with later stretches or all new designs. I’d say they got what they wanted. No way Airbus will ever permit the C-Series to grow, it would also encroach on its own products. Airbus will nurture the C-Series the same way Boeing nurtured the 717. I see it exactly the opposite. The A320 is based on 1970's project work leadfing to Airbus "acquiring" it in 1981. So it's 4-5 decades old. Even the NEO is still essentially a warmed over 1970's design. The C-Series is new millennium, all new and in its larger variants (including possibly the CS500 160-180 seater should Airbus decide to run with it in the fullness of time) fits squarely into A320 territory. Airbus have a plan to have acquired the entire programme by 2023. I suspect they see the C-Series not as a complement to the A320, filling the niche left by the basically failed A318 in itls smaller -100, but as a direct REPLACEMENT for the 319/320 in due course. In effect I believe they have purchased the A320's successor, in exactly the same way they bought their way into the single aisle market in 1981, but probably with even less risk than that entailed, as they have a certified, modern and in service base to work from. Nah, I think they WILL nurture the C-Series, and grow it as an Airbus in due course, rather than the way Boeing killed the 717. Bombardier may not see huge benefits from it, but Airbus will. Canny move. At some point Boeing is going to HAVE to look at replacing the 737, so maybe they will consume Embraer in due course, and the Duopoly will continue using cutting edge designs from smaller designers purchased in? Other views may vary, but that's my take. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
martin_sam_2000 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Dmanton300 said: I see it exactly the opposite. The A320 is based on 1970's project work leadfing to Airbus "acquiring" it in 1981. So it's 4-5 decades old. Even the NEO is still essentially a warmed over 1970's design. The C-Series is new millennium, all new and in its larger variants (including possibly the CS500 160-180 seater should Airbus decide to run with it in the fullness of time) fits squarely into A320 territory. Airbus have a plan to have acquired the entire programme by 2023. I suspect they see the C-Series not as a complement to the A320, filling the niche left by the basically failed A318 in itls smaller -100, but as a direct REPLACEMENT for the 319/320 in due course. In effect I believe they have purchased the A320's successor, in exactly the same way they bought their way into the single aisle market in 1981, but probably with even less risk than that entailed, as they have a certified, modern and in service base to work from. Nah, I think they WILL nurture the C-Series, and grow it as an Airbus in due course, rather than the way Boeing killed the 717. Bombardier may not see huge benefits from it, but Airbus will. Canny move. At some point Boeing is going to HAVE to look at replacing the 737, so maybe they will consume Embraer in due course, and the Duopoly will continue using cutting edge designs from smaller designers purchased in? Other views may vary, but that's my take. Exactly. Airbus has already said they are going to get the C-series and the 320 line closer together to make the supply chain simpler, so I see some parts migrating both ways, but if you offer someone who ahs purchased A319NEO's the option to switch C-series and kill the 319. Then if you stretch the C-series the way it was planned into the 500, they can phase out the 319/320 and focus on a newer more modern platform. I think Bombardier is going to lose in the long run, but the plane itself should do well!! Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stinger16 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Does anyone have any good pics of the new paint scheme for the f-35, or new coating I should say thanks jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 34 minutes ago, Stinger16 said: Does anyone have any good pics of the new paint scheme for the f-35, or new coating I should say thanks jeff I have been looking myself. Just when I think I have found one I look again and it looks no different then the "old" scheme. If anyone has any could they post them or a link. As an aside these Israeli F-35's look pretty cool: What if of course, but cool nonetheless. Regards, Don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) Edited October 19, 2017 by TaiidanTomcat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 On 2017-10-18 at 5:56 AM, 11bee said: I think what Boeing really wanted was to ensure that another company didn’t end up challenging their critical narrow body product line. Maybe not with the current C Series but possibly with later stretches or all new designs. I’d say they got what they wanted. No way Airbus will ever permit the C-Series to grow, it would also encroach on its own products. Airbus will nurture the C-Series the same way Boeing nurtured the 717. The A320 is old technology. Airbus just gained new technology for free without paying a penny. They have 50% control. The C-Series is proving to be a very popular choice for airlines, they like the size and efficiency. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 What “new technology” did airbus gain? How to build a plane with composite structures, fly by wire controls and new tech engines? Lol, pretty sure they’ve already been there and done that. Doubt that Bombardier has much of value to offer, despite the PR pieces. Also, did you really just use “popular” and C-series in the same sentence? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dmanton300 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 18 minutes ago, 11bee said: What “new technology” did airbus gain? How to build a plane with composite structures, fly by wire controls and new tech engines? Lol, pretty sure they’ve already been there and done that. Doubt that Bombardier has much of value to offer, despite the PR pieces. They gained an entirely new design in the same class they will need a replacement for in the coming years for NOTHING. Had they started from the ground up with a new design, would it have differed greatly from the C-series? Which is what both they AND Boeing are facing in the next years. So it saved them multiple billions in design effort to gain something for nothing that fits their long term vision. It may not be popular now, largely due to concerns over Bombardier's long term viability. That concern has effectively evaporated. But if Airbus DO commit to making it so, they have the financial grunt to do so. Then again it might even give Boeing the impetus to strike out with a genuine 737 replacement and leap-frog the enhanced efficiencies of the C-series, which will be 15-20 years old by the time it get an Airbus number allocated. And the wheel keeps on turning. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phantomdriver Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 10 minutes ago, Dmanton300 said: They gained an entirely new design in the same class they will need a replacement for in the coming years for NOTHING. Had they started from the ground up with a new design, would it have differed greatly from the C-series? Which is what both they AND Boeing are facing in the next years. So it saved them multiple billions in design effort to gain something for nothing that fits their long term vision. It may not be popular now, largely due to concerns over Bombardier's long term viability. That concern has effectively evaporated. But if Airbus DO commit to making it so, they have the financial grunt to do so. Then again it might even give Boeing the impetus to strike out with a genuine 737 replacement and leap-frog the enhanced efficiencies of the C-series, which will be 15-20 years old by the time it get an Airbus number allocated. And the wheel keeps on turning. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 No doubt Airbus is the real winner in this fiasco. The C-Series is theirs to do with as they please and they gave up nothing to get it. Heck they may take it, alter it slightly (...or not at all) and call it/rename it an "Airbus [ENTER # HERE]" thus dropping the Bombardier name altogether. Use the more recognized Airbus name to help sell the aircraft. Boeing will survive just fine regardless and as "Dmanton300" postulated this may light a fire under them to design an entirely new aircraft to replace their 737 line that will eventually make the Airbus C-Series aircraft yesterdays news. Who knows? But the losers in this are the Canadian tax payers and perhaps even portions of the Canadian workforce as jobs will no doubt be gained in the U.S. and lost to some extent in Canada. Regards, Don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, Don said: But the losers in this are the Canadian tax payers and perhaps even portions of the Canadian workforce as jobs will no doubt be gained in the U.S. and lost to some extent in Canada. Regards, Don That's pretty much it. Another loser will be the Canadian military, since with this trade issue apparently settled, there is no reason not to purchase those SH's. Correct? We'll see how things work out with the believed C-Series. If they keep peddling them at the same cost as what Delta paid for these jets, it undoubtedly will be very "popular". However, Airbus might start to feel just a bit of financial discomfort. If they sell this jet at it's real price, they will have a tough run competing against Embraier which already has a much superior order book for it's jet. As far as the C-Series being the basis for an eventual replacement for the A320, this is highly unlikely. Airbus is just in the beginning of the A320/21 Neo program. That program will run for at least a decade. By then, the C-Series will be a 20 year old design and will have nothing to offer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 10 hours ago, 11bee said: What “new technology” did airbus gain? How to build a plane with composite structures, fly by wire controls and new tech engines? Lol, pretty sure they’ve already been there and done that. Doubt that Bombardier has much of value to offer, despite the PR pieces. Also, did you really just use “popular” and C-series in the same sentence? You sure hold a hatred for Bombardier. The new technology is the new design with features that match the current needs of the industry. The R&D is complete. Airbus didn’t pay a penny for it. Regardless of what you think, the C-series is very popular with the commercial aviation industry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Don said: But the losers in this are the Canadian tax payers and perhaps even portions of the Canadian workforce as jobs will no doubt be gained in the U.S. and lost to some extent in Canada. Regards, Don Only time will tell, but this was all about survival over a hostile and blatantly unfair tariff imposed by the US commerce department. I see it as win-win. The company was facing an uncertain future after the tariffs were announced. Now they will still build the components going for final assembly at Airbus in the US. The tooling aren’t moving. The final assembly point of those jets is. The Canadian taxpayer doesn’t lose, each jet sold pays back the loan. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 9 hours ago, 11bee said: Another loser will be the Canadian military, since with this trade issue apparently settled, there is no reason not to purchase those SH's. Correct? The damage is done, we won’t be buying SHs. You make it sound like a negotiated agreement was worked out. One thing that may happen is the Commerce Department will see the Airbus threat and drop the tariff resulting in the Canadian Parliment cancelling the Airbus acquisition. This would make Boeing breath easier. But Boeing will still have egg on their face. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Emvar Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress.com/2017/10/19/airbus-pledges-to-put-c-series-ahead-of-a319-in-sales-push/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Scooby said: Only time will tell, but this was all about survival over a hostile and blatantly unfair tariff imposed by the US commerce department. I see it as win-win. The company was facing an uncertain future after the tariffs were announced. Now they will still build the components going for final assembly at Airbus in the US. The tooling aren’t moving. The final assembly point of those jets is. The Canadian taxpayer doesn’t lose, each jet sold pays back the loan. Indeed time will tell but right now the signs point to the Québec and Canadian tax payers on the hook for the $6 billion debt (plus interest) Bombardier has incurred in all this. That's a lot of money! Somebody has to pay it and Airbus not Bombardier now owns the lions share of the aircraft, including sales and Airbus isn't paying that huge figure back that Bombardier incurred. I guess its just me but that sounds like a big lose for the tax payer. Don't forget Bombardier's other venture in rail is yet another money suck for the tax payer too (so, money comes in...money goes out). What happens production and job wise down the road? Anyone's guess. But there's no doubt the U.S. has gained jobs in the Airbus C-Series that it didn't have last week and stands in a better position to gain more thanks to cheaper work force costs and no unions rather then lose in that department as time goes on. Besides we all know a company (Airbus) can say whatever they want to look like the good guys to get the deal done but over time do the complete opposite. Airbus is looking out for Airbus no different then any other company. A year or two from now they may find it more profitable to relocate the Airbus C-Series elsewhere. Again, who knows? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dmanton300 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) 19 hours ago, 11bee said: If they keep peddling them at the same cost as what Delta paid for these jets, it undoubtedly will be very "popular". However, Airbus might start to feel just a bit of financial discomfort. If they sell this jet at it's real price, they will have a tough run competing against Embraier which already has a much superior order book for it's jet. As far as the C-Series being the basis for an eventual replacement for the A320, this is highly unlikely. Airbus is just in the beginning of the A320/21 Neo program. That program will run for at least a decade. By then, the C-Series will be a 20 year old design and will have nothing to offer. But the 737MAX will have something to offer? That's basically a 50 year old design. The A320 is a basically 40 year old design. Neither of them will have "anything to offer" compared to a something like the C series. And Boeing have been dumping 737s at massively under cost as well ($22 million oer airframe in one case), so why would Airbus feel the pinch any more than them? (or any less than them?) Edited October 21, 2017 by Dmanton300 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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