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F-35 news roundup

MarkW

By MarkW,
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11bee

11bee

Posted
Posted
19 hours ago, Ken Cartwright said:

A little more news: Two US F-35s fly to Estonia to show solidarity with NATO:

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-estonia-idUSKBN17R1VL

Interestingly, a total of 3 RC-135W/U's were orbiting close to Russian airspace when these jets were airborne.  Apparently interested in any Russian response to the flights.    

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TaiidanTomcat

TaiidanTomcat

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, phantomdriver said:

very likely because of their indecision over taking up orders for the F-35..........

 

Its almost like there are about 10 other countries that could use those jobs, and those countries are actually buying F-35s(!). Canada (had) a pretty good share, for the amount of airplanes they were buying too. Australia has ordered 84 officially, Canada has ordered exactly zero. So what do we tell Australia when they notify LM they can do what Canada does? And what do we do when Canadian politicos don't fight to keep those jobs? Its LM's job to keep rewarding Canada while snubbing Australia? How long do we give Canada to pull their head out? They have access to all the same data all the other F-35 nations do, And they made their decisions years and years ago. Starting to see a lot of international F-35s on the ramps. Hell Israel has their jets in country. 

 

its the perfect arrangement. Countries want F-35s and more jobs, and Canada doesn't want F-35s, and doesn't care enough about the jobs to fight for them. You don't have to be a Noble-winning economist to see what happens next. 

 

1 hour ago, phantomdriver said:

petty...........

 

Considering some of the people Ive talked to are saying Canadian higher ups are not fighting for the work share and basically letting it go, I'll leave it to you who is being petty. I guess billions of dollars and steady jobs for decades are a small price to pay for ego and campaign promises. LM warned them specifically what would happen if they left and even if LM was as committed to Canada as is possible, they have to keep other people happy too. like the UK for example who is a tier 1 partner, or Italy who built a FACO at taxpayer expense, or Australia who already placed an order for the majority of its airplanes save for 16. Or nations like Korea and Japan who are late comers and are hungry for more work share. 

 

This isn't anything new, we watched Canada give away all its jobs with the "Cadillac" Sea King replacement in the 1990s (there are actually some ARCers on here who lost their jobs thanks to that). were the EH101 people being petty? There just isn't going to be a lot of sympathy nor job welfare for them. Canada not purchasing F-35s drives up the cost on everyone else who is. the estimate i heard was the tune of 1 million dollars per airplane. That makes me rather unhappy, as it makes others rather unhappy. and many of those unhappy people want that money made up for in other ways... And Namely its because Canada continues to play politics while other nations (NATO nations for example) are buying aircraft who's price escalates when Canada doesn't fulfill its obligations. So Who is being petty again? I can't blame the Aussies for not being happy about taking an $84 million hit. I'm not happy my country is taking a 2 plus BILLION dollar hit. Unhappy with the cost escalation?

 

hqdefault.jpg

 

Its really simple, seemed pretty obvious that the whole JSF thing was from the start. Shared risk/reward, shared benefits/costs. its not a Charity. With Canada not pulling their weight, others pay more.

 

 Belgium just put out their RFPs and it all but eliminated the competition to the point even Boeing isn't going to bother. So there's going to be another F-35 adopter and they are not going to want to pay more, and they are going to want jobs too. Oh and in the meantime, Production is ramping up and its no time for indecisiveness about who is tasked with what. 

 

 

 

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Don

Don

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Raceaddict said:

I've been informed from one of my customers that Lockheed Martin has started pulling F-35 work out of Canada.

Which is exactly what many people said they would do if the Canadian Government continued to drag its feet and/or selected something else. Nothing surprising and nothing petty. Its business.

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Raceaddict

Raceaddict

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Don said:

Which is exactly what many people said they would do if the Canadian Government continued to drag its feet and/or selected something else. Nothing surprising and nothing petty. Its business.

 

Exactly. (Frustrating though that may be for those of us affected...)

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Gordon Shumway

Gordon Shumway

Posted
Posted

TT,

 

 Your previous post NAILED IT 100%. I seeth in anger at what Canada is doing about the next fighter jet  today and the  stuff about F-35. Our exalted govt. seems to want its  cake and to eat it too. I would not be surprised if LM soon tells Canada  to buzz off and we lose  thousands of  good paying  jobs that would last  for  what 15-20-25 years of F-35 production. On top of that  lose the ability to buy  what is now  proving to be the best  combat jet option out there. Final RED FLAG 2017 numbers were F-35 with a 15:1 kill ratio over Red forces.

 

I feel now  we are going to go F-18E/F regardless of FACTS as in March our  govt. placed  an order for 18 F-18 E/F Superhornets as a stop gap  that the  RCAF  does not  want.  The F-18E/F is a fine combat jet but over the next 30+ years it will fall further away,  faster than  F-35 may as a front line combat jet.

 

There is no  need to dilly dally over F-35 anymore. Too many of our peers and allies have and are  buying F-35's now, what do they know  that our dear Leader  in Ottawa does not?  And if they know more on F-35 why does he not?

 

I mean one  can only occupy   one's  time with a Shakespearean  play  for so long   before one has to get to some real work.:rolleyes:

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Scooby

Scooby

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TaiidanTomcat said:

 

Its almost like there are about 10 other countries that could use those jobs, and those countries are actually buying F-35s(!). Canada (had) a pretty good share, for the amount of airplanes they were buying too. Australia has ordered 84 officially, Canada has ordered exactly zero. So what do we tell Australia when they notify LM they can do what Canada does? And what do we do when Canadian politicos don't fight to keep those jobs? Its LM's job to keep rewarding Canada while snubbing Australia? How long do we give Canada to pull their head out? They have access to all the same data all the other F-35 nations do, And they made their decisions years and years ago. Starting to see a lot of international F-35s on the ramps. Hell Israel has their jets in country. 

 

its the perfect arrangement. Countries want F-35s and more jobs, and Canada doesn't want F-35s, and doesn't care enough about the jobs to fight for them. You don't have to be a Noble-winning economist to see what happens next. 

 

 

Considering some of the people Ive talked to are saying Canadian higher ups are not fighting for the work share and basically letting it go, I'll leave it to you who is being petty. I guess billions of dollars and steady jobs for decades are a small price to pay for ego and campaign promises. LM warned them specifically what would happen if they left and even if LM was as committed to Canada as is possible, they have to keep other people happy too. like the UK for example who is a tier 1 partner, or Italy who built a FACO at taxpayer expense, or Australia who already placed an order for the majority of its airplanes save for 16. Or nations like Korea and Japan who are late comers and are hungry for more work share. 

 

This isn't anything new, we watched Canada give away all its jobs with the "Cadillac" Sea King replacement in the 1990s (there are actually some ARCers on here who lost their jobs thanks to that). were the EH101 people being petty? There just isn't going to be a lot of sympathy nor job welfare for them. Canada not purchasing F-35s drives up the cost on everyone else who is. the estimate i heard was the tune of 1 million dollars per airplane. That makes me rather unhappy, as it makes others rather unhappy. and many of those unhappy people want that money made up for in other ways... And Namely its because Canada continues to play politics while other nations (NATO nations for example) are buying aircraft who's price escalates when Canada doesn't fulfill its obligations. So Who is being petty again? I can't blame the Aussies for not being happy about taking an $84 million hit. I'm not happy my country is taking a 2 plus BILLION dollar hit. Unhappy with the cost escalation?

 

hqdefault.jpg

 

Its really simple, seemed pretty obvious that the whole JSF thing was from the start. Shared risk/reward, shared benefits/costs. its not a Charity. With Canada not pulling their weight, others pay more.

 

 Belgium just put out their RFPs and it all but eliminated the competition to the point even Boeing isn't going to bother. So there's going to be another F-35 adopter and they are not going to want to pay more, and they are going to want jobs too. Oh and in the meantime, Production is ramping up and its no time for indecisiveness about who is tasked with what. 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, this post is one of the reasons I consider TaiidanTomcat one of the smartest posters on this site.

 

Why can't our politicians be as smart?

Edited by Scooby
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TaiidanTomcat

TaiidanTomcat

Posted
Posted

https://www.f35.com/news/detail/f-35-mrou-initial-component-global-assignments-made-by-dod

 

Recent F-35 Maintenance, Repair, Overhaul and Upgrade (MRO&U) Initial Component Global Assignment activity , the Canadian govt did not submit a single entry.  Meaning that they did not want to even try to win ongoing significant MRO&U work for their country's industry.   Here are the number of submissions made by other countries:

UK: 13
Italy: 56
Netherlands: 10
Turkey: 26
Australia: 29
Denmark:  10
Norway: 10
Israel: 16
Japan: 53
St Korea: 24

Canada: 0

 

So the other part of LM "pulling" contracts is the Canadian Government not bothering to try for them at all as well. 

 

Canadians have my sympathy. They truly do. I understand that there are "public positions" and "closed Door positions" (McCain and the F-35 is a perfect example of publicly whining, while privately ensuring AZ is the largest concentration of F-35s in the country)  but it certainly looks like they are committed to not buying the F-35.  I know the JSF program has had problems, but no one has yet devised a way to save Canadians from themselves. if you didn't learn with the much lamented Arrow, and more recently with the Sea Kings' replacement, and now with F-35, I don't know what to tell you. There's procurement, and then there's Canadian Procurement. They are actually going out of their way to buy yesterdays fighter. 

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Gordon Shumway

Gordon Shumway

Posted
Posted (edited)

Thanks  for the info  TT,

 

With our current PM and his government, I feel that  Canada will NOT buy F-35's (I so hope my feeling is wrong though). His face saving is too important to him. He campaigned that he was not going to buy F-35 and he is likely to song and dance us into not doing so. 18 F-18E/F Super Hornets will likely  become, 65-70-75 by 2020  if our part time drama  teacher wins a second term. Our aviation industry will just take it on the chin  as Boeing will not be able to give the same level and years of length   of industrial spin off's to its F-18E/F production. Lets not forget that Bombardier  received back in the late 80's the contract to service and upgrade our  legacy CF-18's. So they will likely get the  scraps Boeing  will  toss  our way with a complete Super Hornet deal. It will be to H*ll with the rest of our aviation industry.

 

Again as good as the F-18E/F has been and is, it just does not have the length of viable life that the F-35 has.

 

IMO only a change in government  by 2019 may save us from what I feel will be a poor choice. I will lay some blame to our previous PM as in 2010 he and his government  made a deal to go F-35 but  backed out for political hot potato reasons. Had he kept to the deal  we'd be seeing  CF-35A's by now.:doh::crying2:

Edited by Gordon Shumway
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GMK

GMK

Posted
Posted
On 28/04/2017 at 5:39 AM, TaiidanTomcat said:

 

 Australia has ordered 84 officially.

 

... Australia who already placed an order for the majority of its airplanes save for 16.

 

 I can't blame the Aussies for not being happy about taking an $84 million hit.

 

Slight correction - Australia has only ordered 72 aircraft. It has a requirement for "up to 100". With a fleet of 36 (very new) Super Hornets/Growlers, I suggest the balance to bring the fleet to "up to" 100 is some time away. 

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TaiidanTomcat

TaiidanTomcat

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, CorsairMan said:

Highly doubt the super hornets will be purchased. Maybe leased if possible. 

 

Not sure why equipment procurement is a wedge issue but here it's become one. 

 

 

Its looking like a buy, because typically fighters aren't "made to order" for a lease. they are leased when their is an excess in inventory, and Super Hornets are being used by the USN heavily so there is basically no excess. There is talk that they could "theoretically" sell them back to the USN "someday" but there is absolutely no agreement on such a thing. Nor is there an agreement for any future Super Hornets in the US to be bought for the purpose of leasing to Canada. 

 

Which is where all of this starts to graduate from ridiculous to absurd. Canada concluded as did others years and years ago that a mixed fleet is more expensive to operate. They are talking about spending billions of dollars on "interim fighters" from a CF-18 replacement budget allocated at 9 billion total, that will create a mixed fleet (as we all know Super Hornets and Legacy hornets have very little commonality.) They will also hold a competition in the future that could select the F-35 leading a a fleet of 3 different types, 2 of them in transition to full service as the last is retired. Not only are they spending more day to day, they are blowing the CF-18 replacement budget on a solution they themselves say is "temporary" and holding a competition that will cost tens of millions of dollars in the future, while SOLE SOURCING Super Hornets anyway. 

 

Bottom line? Canada pays more, and gets less.

On 4/29/2017 at 3:20 AM, GMK said:

Slight correction - Australia has only ordered 72 aircraft.

 

You're correct my mistake.   

 


 

Quote

 

Boeing informed the Belgian government that it will not participate in its bidders’ conference today, nor respond to the request for proposals for a new fighter aircraft. 

“We regret that after reviewing the request we do not see an opportunity to compete on a truly level playing field with the extremely capable and cost-effective F/A-18 Super Hornet. 

“This decision allows Boeing to concentrate its efforts and resources on supporting our global customers, securing new orders and investing in technology and systems required to meet the threats of today and tomorrow. 

“Where there is a full and open competition we look forward to bringing the full depth and breadth of The Boeing Company to our offer,” said Gene Cunningham, vice president, BDS Global Sales. 


 


Keeping in mind the Super Hornet has never won a competition... Canada hopes to fly the aircraft Belgium and Denmark rejected? 

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phantom

phantom

Posted
Posted (edited)

Its sad. We know its completely political and face saving. With nothing to do with actual capability.

 

Just like the same party put us through with the Sea King replacement 26 years ago. It 2017 and we still do not have a WORKING Sea King replacement.

 

 

 

Oh, and before the troll comes on telling me not to get political. The above statement is FACT not a political rant.

Edited by phantom
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Don

Don

Posted
Posted

I've resigned myself a long while ago to expect nothing good to come from Ottawa Defense wise in the near future. It keeps the blood pressure low and irritation levels manageable. Besides as "Phantom" pointed out above, facts are facts and track records speak for themselves. So...Canada will operate the SH that nobody in uniform even wants (*sigh*) and Canadian's will lose out on F35 jobs/business (double *sigh*). Lose-lose situation. But hey sunny days surround us right...

 

 

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