F-35 news roundup

[TaiidanTomcat]

Lockheed Martin and the Pentagon issued a statement countering Ron Fogleman's claims about F-35s for S. Korea not being combat ready:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/korea-f-35s-full-combat-013542089.html

Thanks, Ken.

FTFA:

But officials with Lockheed and the F-35 program office told Reuters the 3F software would be released to the F-35 fleet in the third quarter of 2017. That would allow the jet to achieve its full combat capability and carry a full load of weapons in time for the delivery schedule that South Korea is seeking, they said.

[11bee]

Quote

But officials with Lockheed and the F-35 program office told Reuters the 3F software would be released to the F-35 fleet in the third quarter of 2017. That would allow the jet to achieve its full combat capability and carry a full load of weapons in time for the delivery schedule that South Korea is seeking, they said.

That is most excellent news. Given the forecasting track record of both parties, this tells us that the software should be ready to go around 2020.

Assuming of course that they don't run into any problems.

[MarkW]

The code will likely be ready, or whatever code is ready will be delivered. But it's not like you can open the box, take out the jet, and instantly have a capability. In addition to training up the zipper suited sun god who will drive the gunship gray pig, you still need to have a viable logistics system to keep 'em flying and fully trained/qualified maintainers who are fluent in English, since the tech docs will come in any native language you want spoken in the US (excluding Spanish).

So, yes, they'll be able to drop GBU-12s and JDAMs, fire AIM-9X and AIM-120, etc, but that does not mean anything close to a combat capable force for some time.

[11bee]

The code will likely be ready, or whatever code is ready will be delivered. But it's not like you can open the box, take out the jet, and instantly have a capability. In addition to training up the zipper suited sun god who will drive the gunship gray pig, you still need to have a viable logistics system to keep 'em flying and fully trained/qualified maintainers who are fluent in English, since the tech docs will come in any native language you want spoken in the US (excluding Spanish).

So, yes, they'll be able to drop GBU-12s and JDAMs, fire AIM-9X and AIM-120, etc, but that does not mean anything close to a combat capable force for some time.

Say it's not so... what a shocker.

[fulcrum1]

Over the past two weeks my unit had the chance to work with it during our training in the California desert and walked away impressed.

[TaiidanTomcat]

Say it's not so... what a shocker.

...which is why the USMC is standing up squadrons before the final software.

[Jennings]

the final software.

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! "Final" and "software" are an oxymoron :)

[ross blackford]

:D, Well said there Jennings. LOL. Will this software include any "feature creep"?

,

Ross.

[TaiidanTomcat]

http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/11/15/airshow-dubai-lockheed-fighter-idINL2N0J00JQ20131115

Nov 15 (Reuters) - South Korea's Joint Chiefs of Staff were expected to endorse an "all F-35 buy" of 40 Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 fighter jets and an option for 20 more at a meeting on Nov. 22, two sources familiar with the competition said on Friday.

More "Paper Tiger" orders expected soon.

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! "Final" and "software" are an oxymoron

Good point I should have clarified

[Kei Lau]

U.S. Navy committed to F-35 despite talks about more F/A-18 buys

Acting Air Force Secretary Eric Fanning on Monday told a meeting in Washington the Air Force's worst-case budget plan foresaw delaying work up to 24 F-35 A-models over the next five years if sequestration budget cuts remained in effect.

He said a detailed analysis showed the Navy's plan to postpone orders for up to 30 C-model jets would impact the cost of the Air Force model less than expected. But he said all the U.S. changes could affect the cost of planes to be purchased by the foreign partners on the program.

[TaiidanTomcat]

South Korea:

SEOUL, Nov. 22 (Xinhua) -- South Korea picked Lockheed Martin's F-35A stealth fighter as its main combat aircraft to better respond to possible nuclear and missile attacks from the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK), the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) said Friday.

JCS Chairman Choi Yun-hee held a meeting with top commanders of the Army, Navy and Air Force to decide on the number and requirements for jets to be bought under the next-generational fighter jet procurement program.

"The required operational capability (ROC) for next- generational fighter jets was revised to prepare for realized nuclear and missile threats from North Korea (DPRK). The kill chain system requires a jet that can infiltrate secretly into and strike a target," Col. Eom Hyo-sik, JCS spokesman, told reporters at a briefing.

Eom said fighter jets with cutting-edge stealth functions and avionic warfare capability were needed to deter the DPRK's future provocations through firm retribution tools.

South Korea planned to sign an agreement in 2014 to buy 40 F-35 Block 3s, which can carry 2 air-to-ground and 2 air-to-air missiles within the body of the plane, before taking the delivery for four years from 2018.

The number of jets to be bought fell to 40 from the initial plan of 60 in order to push for the fighter procurement project rapidly and minimize security vacuum, the JCS said. The remaining 20 jets will be purchased by 2023 after reviewing changes in security situation and aviation technology development.

The F-35 fighter was selected on the back of its radar-evading capability. The detailed radar cross section (RCS) rate was not stipulated in the revised operational capability, but the lower RCS rate of the F-35 was seen as top priority in selecting Seoul's main fighter model.

The RCS rate is the size of fighter jets shown on the radar. The lower the RCS rate, the stealthier the fighters are. The F-35 jet is known to be shown on the radar as a bird size, making it almost impossible to detect the fighter.

However, the F-35 can only carry 4 missiles and bombs as it should contain missiles within the body to improve radar-evading capability. It is picked as one of disadvantages of the fighter along with high maintenance costs.

"High-performance stealth fighters are the core of the kill chain system to infiltrate secretly and strike a target effectively with a minimum of fighters," Brig. Shin Ik-hyun of the JCS strategy planning department told reporters.

The kill chain system refers to the Seoul-driven counterattack strategy, which preemptively detects and intercepts missiles and nuclear threats from Pyongyang. Seoul and Washington agreed in October to first strike the DPRK if signs of Pyongyang's nuclear attacks are detected.

South Korea reportedly planned to purchase four Global Hawks from the United States with the aim of deploying the high-altitude, long-endurance unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) on the Korean Peninsula by 2017.

Meanwhile, the JCS meeting decided to turn the indigenous fighter jet development project, named KF-X, from a long-term plan to a mid-term project, aiming to complete the development by 2020.

The selection of the F-35 was widely expected to delay the homemade fighter project as the stealth jets should be purchased via the U.S. Foreign Military Sale (FMS) program needed to win approval from the U.S. Congress.

In the latest competitive bidding, South Korea offered the transfer of technology as one of the main requirements to be picked as a main bidder. It was part of efforts to link the procurement program to the indigenous fighter jet development project.

But, the FMS program, or the one-way government-to-government contract, would grant Seoul less room for the technology transfer in future negotiations with Washington

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2013-11/22/c_132910352.htm

[Dmanton300]

I'm sure Boeing and Eurofighter are delighted to have spent money bidding in a farcical so-called competitive tender that really wasn't.

[11bee]

I'm sure Boeing and Eurofighter are delighted to have spent money bidding in a farcical so-called competitive tender that really wasn't.

Agreed.. Didn't they create a procurement agency specifically to manage this competition? After all that time and money spent on a transparent bid process they chuck out the results, have a quick back office meeting and do a sole-source award to LM? Really?

Sounds like the good old days when Lockheed bribed half of Europe to purchase F-104's.

With regard to this rational in the above press release:

The RCS rate is the size of fighter jets shown on the radar. The lower the RCS rate, the stealthier the fighters are. The F-35 jet is known to be shown on the radar as a bird size, making it almost impossible to detect the fighter.[/i]

I think there is a general consensus that advances in radar will negate a good amount of the F-35's LO capabilities. I highly doubt the F-35 will be "almost impossible to detect" for much longer (if it even is today). Sounds like a copy and paste from a LM marketing brochure. Granted it's certainly superior to any of it's contemporaries but that is a pretty big statement.

Edited November 22, 2013 by 11bee

[TaiidanTomcat]

I'm sure Boeing and Eurofighter are delighted to have spent money bidding in a farcical so-called competitive tender that really wasn't

They are big boys, you don't always make the sale. Someone was going to win and 2 were going to get left out. We didn't think Korea was going to buy all 3 so that no ones money wasted or feelings hurt right? Eurofighter never stood a chance and a lot of people felt they were brought in just because the Koreans felt you need 3 competitors to have a proper competition. they were the longest shot, and I think they knew it. Eurofighter has recently said they need to reevaluate their sales strategy.

Agreed.. Didn't they create a procurement agency specifically to manage this competition? After all that time and money spent on a transparent bid process they chuck out the results, have a quick back office meeting and do a sole-source award to LM? Really?

Basically the F-35 was the best aircraft, especially considering their plan to counteract WMDs. They evaluated all the options already and the only thing that kept the F-35 out of the running was an arbitrary price cap that only Boeing could meet. So rather than rethrow another party ("chuck out the results"), they decided to chuck the cost limit, use the results just taken, and pick the best aircraft.

The whole Korea fiasco is the reason a lot of countries just opted for the F-35 outright. Canada for example has said exactly that.

Sounds like the good old days when Lockheed bribed half of Europe to purchase F-104's.

yes, its just like that. :rolleyes:/>

I think there is a general consensus that advances in radar will negate a good amount of the F-35's LO capabilities. I highly doubt the F-35 will be "almost impossible to detect" for much longer (if it even is today).

Speaking of big statements...

Granted it's certainly superior to any of it's contemporaries but that is a pretty big statement.

Not really. If there are advancements that will detect LO aircraft (which again is not just the F-35)It probably won't be radar, unless there is a revolutionary breakthrough. the LRS-B is also going to be an LO aircraft.

[11bee]

Speaking of big statements...

Not my statement, the Israeli's stated a while back that the F-35's LO advantage was going to be negated within 10 years. That was their rational for wanting to equip their F-35 fleet with an indigenous EW system. If you feel that the F-35 is going to remain "almost invisible" for the foreseeable future, take it up with the IAF and try to convince them otherwise. They will surely appreciate your guidance and the billions of shekels you saved them.

No advantage lasts forever. The F-35 has a bunch of other impressive (and so far, unique) attributes but guaranteed lifetime near-invisibility probably isn't one of them.

[Dmanton300]

They are big boys, you don't always make the sale.

I'm pretty sure not even big boys are happy to p**s money away on a "competitive tender" that ultimately proved to be anything but. It's got nothing to do with making the sale, it's all about how the tender was handled, in this instance farcically badly - I start to wonder if the days of real competition may be numbered, and non competitive sole sourcing may become more and more common. Not necessarily a bad thing.

[MarkW]

Not my statement, the Israeli's stated a while back that the F-35's LO advantage was going to be negated within 10 years. That was their rational for wanting to equip their F-35 fleet with an indigenous EW system. If you feel that the F-35 is going to remain "almost invisible" for the foreseeable future, take it up with the IAF and try to convince them otherwise. They will surely appreciate your guidance and the billions of shekels you saved them.

Considering Israel isn't spending a shekel on this program, they really aren't losing too much, especially with IAI building F-35 wings now.

I'm pretty sure not even big boys are happy to p**s money away on a "competitive tender" that ultimately proved to be anything but. It's got nothing to do with making the sale, it's all about how the tender was handled, in this instance farcically badly - I start to wonder if the days of real competition may be numbered, and non competitive sole sourcing may become more and more common. Not necessarily a bad thing.

So since everybody knows after the Silent Eagle decision was shot down, should Seoul host another competition? Waste even more time? What discovery is left here?

SE was a serious contender, but risky and not nearly as capable, all due respect to Gen Fogleman. It was a terribly run competition no doubt, but it looks like Seoul is finally putting a fork in the dang thing. And if you want truly terrible competitions, try India.

I am surprised they pushed off to LRIP 10/2018 timeframe. Pretty smart to get the jet after development is nominally over.

[Dmanton300]

SE was a serious contender, but risky and not nearly as capable, all due respect to Gen Fogleman. It was a terribly run competition no doubt, but it looks like Seoul is finally putting a fork in the dang thing. And if you want truly terrible competitions, try India.

SE won and was then rejected . . . . hardly a "serious contender" if all along the wrong answer would result in a rejection anyway. To be clear, on balance I think SK has made probably the best choice, but leading vendors a merry dance to get there, whilst hardly new, doesn't make it seem any better handled. Seems like they had the answer all along, they just needed to find a way to frame the question!

India does make me wonder if at some point countries like that will back themselves into a corner with vendors just saying "no thanks" to invitations to tender? I doubt it will happen but it would make me chuckle if a few so-called "competitions" resulted in all the vendors doing nothing more than saying "here's a few sales brochures, give is a call if you want some" and leave the customer going "but. . but. . but" . Notably India has still failed to offer anything the rest of the world calls "evidence" in the ongoing AW101 situation.

[11bee]

So since everybody knows after the Silent Eagle decision was shot down, should Seoul host another competition? Waste even more time? What discovery is left here?

Probably correct. However, if the USAF ever made an award in the same manner, John McCain would have a bunch of heads mounted on stakes outside of his office.

It's refreshing to see that other countries don't have to worry about silly things like transparency, procurement regulations, public opinion, etc, etc.

[TaiidanTomcat]

Not my statement, the Israeli's stated a while back that the F-35's LO advantage was going to be negated within 10 years. That was their rational for wanting to equip their F-35 fleet with an indigenous EW system.

Yes John, and this has absolutely nothing to do with Israel having a big chunk of indigenous Avionics and other electronic warfare industry, and keeping them in business...

But I know you read that once, so it must be true. Especially if Israel says it. they have no incentive to $ay $uch thing$. why would you give this Korean writer a hard time about citing LM propoganda but not Israel's avionics industry for making such a claim?

Besides I don't think that is any reason to pick on the reporter for a pretty standard boiler plate report about SKoreas selection. Its not his job to launch into an editorial on the future of stealth based on what the Israelis say. So its fact until its disproven, international biased rumor aside.

If you feel that the F-35 is going to remain "almost invisible" for the foreseeable future, take it up with the IAF and try to convince them otherwise. They will surely appreciate your guidance and the billions of shekels you saved them.

see the above and think of all the shekels at stake. plus the F-35 is not an F-117-- its not relying wholly on passive measures. It already carries an impressive EW suite, and has a powerful AESA that will do some damage on radars. So its the same story: Go until your detected, jam or kill what detects you. Equipping the F-35 with EW avionics (state of the art ones a that) is standard practice and has always been the plan. The trick is it won't have to use it often. Israel like it always does wants its own stuff in there. F-35s also carry good old fashion chaff and flares. Now of course if it didn't the internet would be quick to point out that it doesn't carry basic countermeasures, or that it doesn't even have a jammer so without stealth its boned, but thats not the case.

Edited November 22, 2013 by TaiidanTomcat

[TaiidanTomcat]

Probably correct. However, if the USAF ever made an award in the same manner, John McCain would have a bunch of heads mounted on stakes outside of his office.

in what manner? Selecting a winner and then changing our minds? No, that would Never happen.

It's refreshing to see that other countries don't have to worry about silly things like transparency, procurement regulations, public opinion, etc, etc

.

uhhh yeah. Unlike Korea the US is squeaky clean about this stuff... and there is never any foul play, or closed decisions, or politics, or anything. And McCain would never partake in such shenanigans if they did ever exist. Kool aide anyone?

Edited November 22, 2013 by TaiidanTomcat

[GreyGhost]

It wasn't "Kool Aid" ... It was "Flavor Aid" ... Facts are facts ...

-Gregg

Edited November 22, 2013 by GreyGhost

[Litvyak]

I'm pretty sure that the Israelis if they want to do something with their F-35s once they get them, they will. They have some pretty talented hackers after all...

[TaiidanTomcat]

SE won and was then rejected . . . . hardly a "serious contender" if all along the wrong answer would result in a rejection anyway. To be clear, on balance I think SK has made probably the best choice, but leading vendors a merry dance to get there, whilst hardly new, doesn't make it seem any better handled. Seems like they had the answer all along, they just needed to find a way to frame the question!

No thats not how it happened. South Korea set a price ceiling, and in that context with the F-35 being well above the other competitors was out early despite it being the better aircraft. Boeing won by default being the only company that bid under the ceiling (even then there were some serious doubts as to whether they could actually make good on the price) EADs encountered some weird 2 seat single seat thing detail that made the Koreans say they changed their contract...

So it was poorly run and stupid, but not necessarily rigged. That price cap got in everybody's way and inhibited the whole thing. I won't shed any tears for Boeing or EADs. Thats business and they had no problem spending money and energy to try and win. In fact they still have their shills trying to promote the F-15SE even with the writing on the wall.

[11bee]

PR war for the Canadian fighter order heats up.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A new video is circulating on the Internet that pokes fun at Lockheed Martin Corp's F-35 fighter jet while lauding the F/A-18 built by rival Boeing Co , the latest salvo in an increasingly pitched battle over Canadian fighter orders.

In the video, two little boys compare what they were able to buy with the $10 they each got from their grandfather. One shows off his stealthy new F-35 fighter, while the other proudly reports that he was able to buy three F/A-18 plus 10 years' worth of logistics support for the same amount.

Tyler Brand, vice president of business development for Canadian defense contractor RaceRocks 3D, said his company made the video on its own to showcase its skills and boost Boeing's marketing efforts while it was bidding for work from AeroInfo, a Boeing unit in Canada.

Boeing is trying to round up additional orders for its F/A-18 fighter and the EA-18G electronic attack plane which is based on the same airframe to extend the plane's production past 2016, when it is currently slated to end.

Boeing executives say they see good prospects for F/A-18 orders from the U.S. Navy, Canada, Australia, Denmark and several other countries.

Full article and link to video is here:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/video-wades-lockheed-boeing-battle-over-canadian-jet-011750596--finance.html