F-35 news roundup

[TaiidanTomcat]

PR war for the Canadian fighter order heats up.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A new video is circulating on the Internet that pokes fun at Lockheed Martin Corp's F-35 fighter jet while lauding the F/A-18 built by rival Boeing Co , the latest salvo in an increasingly pitched battle over Canadian fighter orders.

In the video, two little boys compare what they were able to buy with the $10 they each got from their grandfather. One shows off his stealthy new F-35 fighter, while the other proudly reports that he was able to buy three F/A-18 plus 10 years' worth of logistics support for the same amount.

Tyler Brand, vice president of business development for Canadian defense contractor RaceRocks 3D, said his company made the video on its own to showcase its skills and boost Boeing's marketing efforts while it was bidding for work from AeroInfo, a Boeing unit in Canada.

Boeing is trying to round up additional orders for its F/A-18 fighter and the EA-18G electronic attack plane which is based on the same airframe to extend the plane's production past 2016, when it is currently slated to end.

Boeing executives say they see good prospects for F/A-18 orders from the U.S. Navy, Canada, Australia, Denmark and several other countries.

Full article and link to video is here:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/video-wades-lockheed-boeing-battle-over-canadian-jet-011750596--finance.html

I love that commercial. Its perfect for people who think like Children. For the price of 1 F-15 you could buy 8 F-86s, or 64 P-51s!!

Bee Tee Dubs, 3 for 1 is not even a correct exchange ratio, not even close to accurate of what the Canadians would truly pay. Canada would be lucky to get one for one F-35 to super hornet, and of course they don't get the money invested in the JSF back, while losing billions in JSF contracts.

Canada and the F-35:

Canada has yet to withdraw from the JSF program, and no one knows what a "reset button" really means. Well thats a lie actually. People in the know, know it means its time wasting maneuver to buy political breathing room before they "decide" on the F-35 again.

Edited December 4, 2013 by TaiidanTomcat

[Grey Ghost 531]

The Air Force has officially tapped the VTANG for basing the F-35.

Washington Times

[GreyGhost]

Hill AFB also ...

>>> Clicky <<<

No surprise really ...

-Gregg

[Devilleader501]

I think its quite comical to bring up prices of P-51's, and F-86's. Take the 40's or so and figure out what an aircraft cost to build then. Bring that same aircraft now and rebuild it. Not only with the electronics that are aboard the F-35 but also the ordinance it can carry at supper sonic speeds. Then retrofit the thing to accept all of the ordinance that it was never intended to have and you have yourself the Spruse Goose.

The F-35 was never intended to be an Air Superiority Fighter. It was designed to be a stealthy ( being hard to see ) aircraft and be able to conceive STOVL. It is never going up against an F-22 Nor will it ever go up against a stealthy Russian Mig. Unless it's in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was designed as a STRIKE FIGHTER. Which with the designation VMFA-121 suggests it is a fighter with Attack capabilities. The role it actually is designed for is Attack not Air to Air. Don't get me wrong it can and will defend itself but it was never designed to be an Air to Air aircraft. It is for the MARINES leave the dog fighting to the Navy and Air Force.

I can already see the differences in maintenance from an onlooker standpoint because there are only a small hand full of people ever maintaining the F-35's, whereas the AV-8B has more like 40 people running around the Hangar at any given moment. That being said Is also why the F-35 was designed. To be a Multi Roll Aircraft capable of doing anything it needs to in order to complete Missions.

It is capable of sharing all of the common parts, Maintenance Crews, and computer software and hardware to be able to cut down on maintenance. The F-35 so far has been a Dream to fly as far as the Pilots are concerned. The Prices in the quote are also for maintenance as well as the A/C being built.

. Also one other thing to mention is Roll all of these qualities into one F-18 A-B-C-D-E-F-G and Lets see how things Actually stack up.

There is not an F-18 out there that has the capabilities of the F-35 nor will it ever unless Boeing decides it wants to reinvent the Hornet. To retrofit the Hornet to these standards while keeping it flight worthy for the next 30+ years would cost just as much or more than the F-35 whole market value.

The F-35 brings a new level to the playing field which includes being able to carry jamming pods. So much for EA-18G's being needed. The first tour for the F-35 is late 2014 early 2015. We almost have a full squadron with 14 A/C and only 2 more to go.

They fly their asses off and are almost ready for DET. Watching these aircraft on a daily basis and being around them fueling them very night is amazing. These are really an aircraft to be reckoned with.

[GreyGhost]

The EA-18G is a much more capable jamming platform than the F-35 is ...

And I believe the first overseas deployment for the F-35B is slated for 2017 ...

-Gregg

[MarkW]

USMC IOC is what, mid to late 2015? And there currently isn't a pod even under development for the F-35. Next Gen jammer got backed away years ago.

Still, the point of 3 to 1 is just silly. Superhornets are now $33M a piece? With ATFLIR pods? Apparently math skills aren't needed in film making school.

[TaiidanTomcat]

USMC IOC is what, mid to late 2015? And there currently isn't a pod even under development for the F-35. Next Gen jammer got backed away years ago.

Still, the point of 3 to 1 is just silly. Superhornets are now $33M a piece? With ATFLIR pods? Apparently math skills aren't needed in film making school.

Its an ad for those who have zero knowledge of the complex subject made so simple its actually false, so the uninformed audience can feel smarter. In other words its a great ad, truth has nothing to do with it. It adds noise and makes dumb people feel smarter than their wacky military/government. A win for mouth breathers everywhere.

[11bee]

Its an ad for those who have zero knowledge of the complex subject made so simple its actually false, so the uninformed audience can feel smarter. In other words its a great ad, truth has nothing to do with it. It adds noise and makes dumb people feel smarter than their wacky military/government. A win for mouth breathers everywhere.

All that is true but if it sways public opinion (most of whom know zero about the technical issues and probably don't really care), would it not make a difference? It's real easy to dismiss this ad but ultimately, decisions to spend billions on fighters are made by politicians, not generals.

Generals may not care about the mouth-breathers but politicians are a different story. Regardless of intellect, (most) mouth-breathers still vote.

Regards,

A Concerned Mouth-Breather

[Devilleader501]

The EA-18G is a much more capable jamming platform than the F-35 is ...

And I believe the first overseas deployment for the F-35B is slated for 2017 ...

-Gregg

The F-35 was never meant to be an EA-18G nor was it ever to be an EA-6B It was only supposed to protect itself and maybe 3 other aircraft in the group. This is why it is the JSF. It is supposed to replace the F-18 the Prowler and the Harrier. For this reason alone it is worth our dime to get in on this investment. We will save billions by eliminating 2 other aircraft that one aircraft can do the job of. It replaces the aging Harrier and Marine legasus Hornets. Not to mention the 40+ year old EA-6B.

Instead we get one aircraft for every 3. Which means Multi Roll that no other aircraft can pull off to date. JSF may not be faster than F-22 and may not be able to jam more than an EA-18G but what it makes up for in the long run means a whole hell of a lot more than either of the 2 previous aircraft combined. Dont forget about the AES this thing acts as an AWACS as well. Everyone complains about cost of these things when no one will look at the money we save with all of the other aircraft being replaced. Not to mention crews, maintenance, fuel, and other logistics.

While the F-35 is still in its infancy there are sure to be problems. Take the F-22 for instance its had problems from day one with the latest being the oxygen and people are still acting like its mans greatest invention. For what this aircraft can do, replace, and upgrade to why cant anyone at least give the damn thing a chance, instead of biching moaning and complaining that its too expensive.

Again let it have it's chance to prove everyone wrong in the long run. We have to crawl before we can walk and the same goes for aircraft too.

Here is a good bit of reading but this makes for a Valuable Argument over the F-35. This is the DoD procurement for the next 10 years If this doesn't make the F-35 worth the money nothing will. I actually just stumbled onto it. It's a PDF so you will have to download it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbreakingdefense.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F3%2F2013%2F06%2FDoD-Aircraft-Report-to-Congress-.pdf&ei=tNqgUrnuN9TjoATsy4DgDg&usg=AFQjCNF-9cT8QhXFTswSolm7NBPWsivnLg&sig2=sr7gKHLExwt0fFL2Nk9Gew&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU&cad=rjt

Edited December 5, 2013 by Devilleader501

[habu2]

Which means Multi Roll that no other aircraft can pull off to date.

ummm...

I know what you meant but I read what you wrote....

[TaiidanTomcat]

Its an ad for those who have zero knowledge of the complex subject made so simple its actually false, so the uninformed audience can feel smarter. In other words its a great ad, truth has nothing to do with it. It adds noise and makes dumb people feel smarter than their wacky military/government. A win for mouth breathers everywhere.

All that is true but if it sways public opinion (most of whom know zero about the technical issues and probably don't really care), would it not make a difference? It's real easy to dismiss this ad but ultimately, decisions to spend billions on fighters are made by politicians, not generals.

Generals may not care about the mouth-breathers but politicians are a different story. Regardless of intellect, (most) mouth-breathers still vote.

Regards,

A Concerned Mouth-Breather

I'm not dismissing it, thats my point. Its effective, it will sway a large majority of people who are ignorant, which is a large majority to begin with. They'll check to see if its true only long afterward (if then)As the saying goes "never let facts get in the way of a great story"

We see it all the time with elections, assign a characteristic to someone, make it a sound byte, and by the time the whole thing has been debunked its already tattooed onto people's brains and it puts the opponent on the defensive trying to explain how its not true. but we don't like long explanations and complex things anyway so we prefer the sound byte. The truth is boring or horrifying. comforting and simple lies are great and much easier to swallow. And reputations are hard to change when the public locks onto them:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/BeamMeUpScotty/RealLife

Hell even the 46 billion dollar full lifetime cost that KPMG had for Canada's F-35s includes money already paid for research and even the cost of decommissioning the 65 aircraft in 42 years time... guess which figure gets thrown about though without that context?

A great retort would be the F-35 kid with the hand fulls of money from the rebate he gets from buying the JSF while the other kid pulls out nearly empty pockets. In which case it looks like the F-35 is a no brainer as it makes money...

[Devilleader501]

ummm...

I know what you meant but I read what you wrote.... :monkeydance:/>

LOL i just figured that out too. Too bad auto correct is dysfunctional.

[Devilleader501]

I'm not dismissing it, thats my point. Its effective, it will sway a large majority of people who are ignorant, which is a large majority to begin with. They'll check to see if its true only long afterward (if then)As the saying goes "never let facts get in the way of a great story"

We see it all the time with elections, assign a characteristic to someone, make it a sound byte, and by the time the whole thing has been debunked its already tattooed onto people's brains and it puts the opponent on the defensive trying to explain how its not true. but we don't like long explanations and complex things anyway so we prefer the sound byte. The truth is boring or horrifying. comforting and simple lies are great and much easier to swallow. And reputations are hard to change when the public locks onto them:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/BeamMeUpScotty/RealLife

Hell even the 46 billion dollar full lifetime cost that KPMG had for Canada's F-35s includes money already paid for research and even the cost of decommissioning the 65 aircraft in 42 years time... guess which figure gets thrown about though without that context? :rolleyes:/>

A great retort would be the F-35 kid with the hand fulls of money from the rebate he gets from buying the JSF while the other kid pulls out nearly empty pockets. In which case it looks like the F-35 is a no brainer as it makes money...

Dude you nailed this one. Just like my post just before this there is a PDF that I posted you should look at. Brings the whole DoD and JSF into more perspective. and not just DoD but ARMY, DoN, And USAF. quite a good read i say.

[MarkW]

You guys are all smoking crack if you think JSF has affected a single election outside of Burlington and Val P.

[TaiidanTomcat]

You guys are all smoking crack if you think JSF has affected a single election outside of Burlington and Val P. :rofl:/>

I don't. And leave my crack smoking out of this.

[fulcrum1]

[falcon20driver]

That commercial is ridiculous :huh:

[TaiidanTomcat]

Already posted and discussed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3R-rtWPyJY

Using kids and "Not complicated" isn't original either...

Edited December 7, 2013 by TaiidanTomcat

[Tony Stark]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3R-rtWPyJY

Using kids and "Not complicated" isn't original either...

[Kei Lau]

U.S. lawmaker urges continuation of Boeing F/A-18 fighter line

Congressman Randy Forbes must not have done this on his own. He obviously is doing the beating for the Navy. So what are the USN thinking? Even Japan and Korea want the shinely new armor of the F-35 JSF. It may be more complicated that you thought when you may have a war to fight and a country to defend.

A Navy official, speaking on background, said the service would "very much like" to order more F/A-18 or EA-18G aircraft, but there was no funding available at the moment.

"The F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler bring unique, proven and exceptional warfighting capability to the Navy and joint forces," said the official, who was not authorized to speak on the record. "The Navy continues to closely monitor the production lines and evaluate options to meet our strike fighter requirements."

Richard Gilpin, deputy assistant secretary of the Navy for air programs, told Reuters last month the Navy was looking at options for buying more F/A-18 jets, but no decisions had been made. U.S. officials are also talking with foreign buyers about orders that could extend production.

The Navy in October flagged a possible order of up to 36 more F/A-18 fighters or EA-18G electronic attack planes in fiscal 2015, but later withdrew the notice on federal procurement website since there is no funding for more planes.

Navy officials say their talks about possible additional purchases of the Boeing fighter do not reflect any wavering of their commitment to the Lockheed F-35 program, since both fighter jets are intended to operate together for decades.

But some F-35 backers worry that the Navy's proposal to deal with across-the-board spending cuts required under sequestration by pausing production of the F-35 C-model for two years could unravel that part of the F-35 program, especially if the Navy continues to buy Boeing jets in the meantime.

A two-year delay in order could push pack initial use of the F-35C until 2021, said one former Navy official. "At some point, depending on how the F-35 carrier variant and unmanned planes come along, they may just not need the F-35C anymore."

[TaiidanTomcat]

U.S. lawmaker urges continuation of Boeing F/A-18 fighter line

Congressman Randy Forbes must not have done this on his own. He obviously is doing the beating for the Navy. So what are the USN thinking? Even Japan and Korea want the shinely new armor of the F-35 JSF. It may be more complicated that you thought when you may have a war to fight and a country to defend.

Although I don't quite understand the above statement its nothing more nefarious than jobs protection:

Forbes said the Pentagon should maintain F/A-18 production in St. Louis, Missouri to safeguard the industrial base and ensure competition. Shutting the line, he warned, would eliminate "vital competition that could result in spiraling costs, leading to more expensive, less capable systems."

[fulcrum1]

hahahaha, that was awesome. After watching the last Thor, Loki is by far the best character going.

[11bee]

Boeing is still sounding confident on additional USN F/A-18 orders:

Boeing expects its F/A-18 production line in St Louis, Missouri to keep humming for the foreseeable future, despite mixed signals from the US Navy about acquiring additional aircraft.

"I can easily envision the production line going beyond 2020," says Michael Gibbons, vice president and programme manager of Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and E/A-18G Growler aircraft. "I could envision, easily, several more years of buys by the US Navy."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-confident-over-additional-us-navy-fa-18-orders-393979/

Either this guy is just talking trash or maybe he's been informally told by the USN that additional purchases are in the future.

I know this goes against what the experts are saying but IF the USN does indeed make several more F/A-18 purchases, would it be at the expense of their stated F-35C orders (either through outright cancellations or pushing the purchase back a few years)?

I can't imagine that they would have the budget for both.

[GreyGhost]

EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. (Dec. 6, 2013) An F-35B Joint Strike Fighter test aircraft piloted by Marine Corps Lt. Col. Jon "Miles" Ohman drops a GBU-32 guided munition during a live-fire weapons delivery test at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. ( U.S. Navy photo courtesy of Lockheed Martin by Tom Reynolds/Released)

>>> Hi Res <<<

-Gregg

[TaiidanTomcat]

Japan in for more, plus Ospreys:

apan's new five-year Mid-Term Defense Program includes outlays for 17 new Osprey tiltrotor aircraft and three Global Hawk surveillance drones to help it respond to China's growing presence in the East China Sea.

The plan, revealed Dec. 13, starts in fiscal 2014. It is expected to be approved in a Cabinet meeting on Dec. 17 along with the National Defense Program Guidelines.

The government plans to use the new aircraft to heighten its capabilities to protect remote islands and to monitor China's activities in waters and airspace near the disputed Senkaku Islands.

It also said it will purchase 52 amphibious vehicles for the Ground Self-Defense Force for use in landing operations. The amphibious vehicles will be the same as those used by the U.S. Marine Corps. The plan also calls for reducing the number of GSDF tanks and replacing them with 99 eight-wheeled maneuver combat vehicles that have higher running capabilities than tanks.

Further spending will include 28 F-35 Lightning fighter jets for the Air Self-Defense Force, as well as four new early-warning aircraft and three new air-refueling and transportation aircraft.

Since the government put the Senkaku Islands under state ownership in September 2012, Chinese government's vessels have repeatedly intruded into Japanese territorial waters around the islands, heightening tensions between the two countries.

The Defense Ministry decided it was paramount to establish amphibious troops that will be able to take back islands in the event they are invaded and occupied.

With the introduction of the 17 Ospreys and 52 amphibious vehicles, the ministry believes the SDF will have landing capabilities comparable to those of the U.S. Marine Corps.

The defense plan also calls for bringing the number of GSDF members to 159,000, an increase of 5,000 from the figure of the national defense program guidelines compiled by the Democratic Party of Japan-led government in 2010.

The ministry said it will use the Global Hawk drones to strengthen surveillance capabilities of the military activities undertaken by China and North Korea.

The Global Hawk can fly at the extremely high altitude of 18,000 meters for more than 30 hours. Three Global Hawks are currently deployed by U.S. forces at Andersen Air Force Base in Guam. Their mission is to engage in surveillance activities in the Asia-Pacific region.

The United States also plans to deploy Global Hawk aircraft to Misawa Air Base in northern Japan in 2014.

The Defense Ministry said Japan and the United States will be able to share surveillance information if they are both using the same type of Global Hawk.

The government will also increase the number of Aegis-equipped ships from the current six to eight for the Maritime SDF. The Aegis defense system has the capability to counter ballistic missile attacks. The decision was made with North Korea in mind.

Of the 24.7 trillion yen ($239 billion) to be spent for the Mid-Term Defense Program, 700 billion yen will accrue from cost-cutting. Thus, the total defense spending will be about 24 trillion yen in real terms, an increase from the 23.5 trillion yen earmarked by the DPJ-led government in 2010.

The defense budget for the next fiscal year starting in April 2014 was put at 4.9 trillion yen.

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/AJ201312140033