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MarkW

F-35 news roundup

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Well gosh golly, if only all those inner-city kids got that sort of peptalk everything would be all better.

So let's peel back the onion a little bit shall we? Where do you draw the line between "PC" and hold over racism? Or sexism or any other "-ism" as you put it?

By the same token, why are there no good racial slurs for white people? Cracker? Seriously? The supposed to hurt anyone's feelings?

How's about this simple test:

Would you consider the phrase "drunker than 10,000 Indians" offensive? If you're not of Indian descent, or are painfully ignorant of how alcohol has been used in the past by whites to control Indians, then I suppose not. Pay attention here because this is the F-35 tie-in. The vice commander of AETC use that very phrase in an open Article 15 hearing. AETC as you may be aware is responsible for training Air Force pilots in the F-35

http://www.examiner....r-force-officer

Is there even a similar slur that could be used against white people? And would you suggest that given our nation's (or going further back white settlers in general) history of smallpox infected blankets, broken treaties, forced multiple relocations and our current reservation system which has an astonishingly high suicide rate that such phrase used by a 2 star general should've just been shrugged off? I'm not asking you for the PC opinion, I'm asking you to take a personal stand and say in front of everyone on this forum that you have no problem with such a phrase being used.

And don't try to make this about the military. Overall I think the military does better than most in trying to equalize things. But as we have all seen, the military is not a reflection of our society.

I'm not saying that if everybody talk nicey-nice urban crime, single-parent families, low income opportunities, or glass ceilings would magically disappear. But it certainly doesn't help when the main group in charge of this country, which also happens to be socia-economically on top as well, continues to perpetuate these things. Call it race or call it class, there's a pretty good correlation between the 2.

So pretend like none of this matters, "all these people need to do is pick themselves up by their bootstraps and they'll be just fine", and all that other self-justifying BS if it helps you sleep at night.

By the way, have you ever been pulled over by the police just because by your appearance alone you don't "fit in" in the area where you are driving? Or perhaps you don't look right in that very expensive car? A man who I very much admire, a former Air Force Col., experienced just such a thing as a young man and was dragged out by gunpoint of his brand-new car that he had just paid for with his deployment money, simply for driving legally in the "wrong" neighborhood-- that is, the rich part of town. The only reason why he's alive today to tell the story is as he was pissing himself in fear when he heard the cop cocked the hammer, was to cry out he was a military officer. While his story occurred some 20/30 years ago, that crap still happens on a daily basis in this country, today.

So again, keep pretending that with just the right amount of gumption any scrappy, hard-working kid can become the next Bill Gates regardless of the institutional and systemic roadblocks.

I stand by my original statement that it is ridiculous that the first woman pilot of an F-35 didn't get to sit in the jet until 8 years after first flight and thousands of flight hours. It's not news that she's the first woman pilot, it's a scandal it took this damn long. And as long as it takes 8 years for a woman pilot to finally crawl into a big bad jet, then I guess we are stuck with it being newsworthy the first time it happens. Chew on that clappy boys.

Jeesh, I am not even sure where to start here. To what institutional roadblocks are you referring? What are you suggesting? Stereotypes and prejudices surely exist. They always have and always will to some degree. But it is not the government's responsibility to "fix" a person's attitude. Anti-discrimination laws already exist.

There is no "white secret" to being successful. It is education and hard work. Period. Every person in America has the opportunity to get a free public education, and if you do well, a college scholarship or student loan will be available. Put together a good resume and you will get a job. There are few "bad schools." There are bad students with ghetto attitudes who destroy the climate of the school. If you are suggesting that urban schools don't have the same quality teachers as suburban schools, that is perhaps partially true. But ask yourself why it is? It is because of an environment which is hostile to teachers. As soon as a teacher can, if they don't quit first, they will seek more favorable working conditions where they are appreciated. I use to work in an urban school. The school was almost 100% black and was practically a combat zone. Aggressive, disrespectful, racist(anti-white) attitudes were the norm, and very little learning was going on there.

As far as cops and racial profiling, which is the "outrage" these days...I don't think cops in America are just waiting for their next shift so they can get on the streets and rough up some black men. Although there are some exceptions, cops are mostly family men who just want to do their job and go home to mama and the kids like the rest of us. They are on the street to arrest bad guys. Is there racial profiling based on stereotypes? Yes. It is called good police work. The simple fact is that blacks by far commit a disproportionate number of criminal acts, so of course black neighborhoods are where most of the active policing is going to occur. Is it racist to patrol the inner city, where most of the violent crime takes place? I don't think so.

I have been watching the news in the wake of the Baltimore riots, and there is a lot of talk about lack of investment in poor, mostly black neighborhoods. Well, okay, but again, ask yourself why companies are reluctant to invest. It goes back to cultural attitudes, as represented by the experience in the schools that I mentioned above. A company is not going to be inclined to build a business in a low income area where they can't make any money and can't hire anyone with good job skills. Again, as I said before, there is no big secret to success. Educate yourself as individual and as a community and stay away from behavior that will get you incarcerated. That is the ticket to improving your neighborhood. And don't expect it to happen overnight. Family and community success is often a product of several generations of work. Stereotypes, good or bad, are generalizations rooted in authentic observations. When they are good, we take pride in them as cultural accomplishments. When they are bad, especially if we are on the receiving end of a negative action, we call it racist, or sexist, or whatever. Sometimes decisions are made on stereotypes....a decision makers judgement of probable behavior. It is not his fault that the stereotype exists. He didn't make it up. Hell, all of the social progressive affirmative action programs are deeply invested in stereotypes. I don't hear many on the receiving end of these programs complaining.

If you don't like your cultural/racial stereotype, it is up to you to change it, one person at a time. The government can't fix that. Sometimes nothing can be done. Since you brought up female F-35 pilots let's go in that direction and take a look at a relatively sedate example:

I am a hiring manager. I have two people in front of me with equal resumes. One is male and one female. They both are about the same age, with spouses and school age kids. I have been doing this a long time and my authentic professional experience has shown me that males are more likely to define themselves by their occupation and a woman is more likely to define herself by her family. When I need someone to work late, the male is more likely to be willing to do that than the female. If a kid needs to be taken care of, I am more likely to lose the productivity of the female as she takes off work to deal with it than the male. Aside from all of this, I understand more about how men think and are motivated than I do females. Of the two sitting in front of me, who is more likely to fit in culturally with my organization and be more productive? Is she a looker? Will she be a distraction in my office? If one of my male employees tries to "talk" to her, is my company going to face a sexual harassment lawsuit? Does the man play golf so we can team bond and talk shop on our monthly corporate outings?

If I hire the man, am I being sexist? Am I breaking the law? Was I wrong to consider the socio-psychological/behavioral aspects of sex?

Edited by DutyCat

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As far as cops and racial profiling, which is the "outrage" these days...I don't think cops in America are just waiting for their next shift so they can get on the streets and rough up some black men. Although there are some exceptions, cops are mostly family men who just want to do their job and go home to mama and the kids like the rest of us.

Which has what to do with being a racist? People who lynched black men in the south were mostly just family men who did their jobs and went home to mama and the kids just like the rest of us too.

F-35? Not seeing the connection.

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Is there racial profiling based on stereotypes? Yes. It is called good police work.

I'll be sure to tell my friend that so that the next time he is pulled over for DWB and asked to get out of his car so he can be patted down, that it's nothing more than a good police officer doing good police work (before heading home to mama at the end of a hard day). Tell you the truth, if I was subject to crap like that on a routine basis, I'd have a much different view of the situation in general and law enforcement in particular. I'm guessing you would too but of course you would never publicly admit it.

Anyway, this little detour has certainly been enlightening but getting back to the F-35, I found this article in an Israeli newspaper:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/F-35-designed-to-deal-with-threats-like-S-300-Lockheed-Martin-official-in-Israel-says-398252

In it they mention that the F-35 can fly at greater angles of attack than the F-16 and implied that as such, it's more maneuverable than the F-16. I know it's extremely difficult to make this comparison since there are many variables involved (including weapons load, which obviously in the F-35 could be 100% internal). However, does anyone have hard info that shows how an F-35 rates against an F-16? I've seen this claim before but there is never any data released to back it up.

If not, what about just the AoA claim? Anything detailed out there that shows what the F-35 is capable of?

Edited by 11bee

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Anyway, this little detour has certainly been enlightening but getting back to the F-35, I found this article in an Israeli newspaper:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/F-35-designed-to-deal-with-threats-like-S-300-Lockheed-Martin-official-in-Israel-says-398252

In it they mention that the F-35 can fly at greater angles of attack than the F-16 and implied that as such, it's more maneuverable than the F-16. I know it's extremely difficult to make this comparison since there are many variables involved (including weapons load, which obviously in the F-35 could be 100% internal). However, does anyone have hard info that shows how an F-35 rates against an F-16? I've seen this claim before but there is never any data released to back it up.

If not, what about just the AoA claim? Anything detailed out there that shows what the F-35 is capable of?

8201070010_1c7dfd2eec_b.jpg

df-F35Agilepix1.jpg

Upside down @ 2:29

By most of the pilots reports its like an F-16, but with the high AoA of an F-18. Which is pretty peachy, because despite canards and Thrust Vectoring and all the Viper is still pretty nimble.

Edited by TaiidanTomcat

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Which has what to do with being a racist? People who lynched black men in the south were mostly just family men who did their jobs and went home to mama and the kids just like the rest of us too.

F-35? Not seeing the connection.

Not a good analogy. A bunch of KKK bubbas getting together to stir up trouble can't really be compared to a professionally certificated police force on a duty shift. What were you thinking?

F-35 connection is only that Mark was complaining about the lack of opportunities for women to fly the jet, and that sort of morphed into a broader discussion of prejudice and white male privilege.

Edited by DutyCat

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Lets be done with this or take it to PM kids. This thread has managed to avoid lockdown and cancellation for years, and we are on the verge of finally reachning IOC, I have had my animated gif picked out for it for over a year now.

Here is a terrifyingly enlightening and entertaining breif from Marine Lt. Col. "chip" Berke in Denmark:

Watch and enjoy

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I'll be sure to tell my friend that so that the next time he is pulled over for DWB and asked to get out of his car so he can be patted down, that it's nothing more than a good police officer doing good police work (before heading home to mama at the end of a hard day). Tell you the truth, if I was subject to crap like that on a routine basis, I'd have a much different view of the situation in general and law enforcement in particular. I'm guessing you would too but of course you would never publicly admit it.

DWB is not the real issue here and you know it. That is a convenient image to throw out, an end result...nice and simple, but it does not address the root cause of black underachievement in modern America. If you answer that question honestly, you will find the solution. The entire inner city cultural attitude towards education, family unity, self reliance, drugs, and criminal behavior needs to change. Right now it is practically pathological. Until that changes, no substantial improvement will be made despite all the money, blame, social progressive empathy, and white guilt complex that are in play.

*Edit* Just saw your suggestion TT, and agree. Time to move on. This issue will be argued about for a good while to come in other venues.

Edited by DutyCat

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Lets be done with this or take it to PM kids. This thread has managed to avoid lockdown and cancellation for years, and we are on the verge of finally reachning IOC, I have had my animated gif picked out for it for over a year now.

Here is a terrifyingly enlightening and entertaining breif from Marine Lt. Col. "chip" Berke in Denmark:

Watch and enjoy

Yes indeed!!! Can all parties cease fire and let it go NOW so this thread stays put...please! Or take it off board. I don't follow the F35 nearly as close as some folks here...me being stuck between World War II and Vietnam in terms of aircraft interests...so I have enjoyed reading the posts on this new aircraft and would hate to see them disappear.

Nice links today TT btw, I found them entertaining.

Regards,

Don.

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Yes indeed!!! Can all parties cease fire and let it go NOW so this thread stays put...please! Or take it off board. I don't follow the F35 nearly as close as some folks here...me being stuck between World War II and Vietnam in terms of aircraft interests...so I have enjoyed reading the posts on this new aircraft and would hate to see them disappear.

Nice links today TT btw, I found them entertaining.

Regards,

Don.

I'm glad you enjoyed them, 30 minutes is usually pretty long for "internet attention span" but I loved every minute.

This is a little long as well, but covers the F-35 pretty comprehensively:

https://comprehensiveinformation.wordpress.com/

So if you have the time, its got a lot of info.

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Has Israel started pilot and groundcrew training in/on the F-35 yet?

I believe I read they're ordering additional F-35s or they're budgeting to order more.

And is their a/c going to have the same paint scheme as all the current F-35s?

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I'm glad you enjoyed them, 30 minutes is usually pretty long for "internet attention span" but I loved every minute.

This is a little long as well, but covers the F-35 pretty comprehensively:

https://comprehensiv....wordpress.com/

So if you have the time, its got a lot of info.

Veeeeeeery informative link you posted 70.gif .

I love the Cuda missile concept!

Thanks for sharing.

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Has Israel started pilot and groundcrew training in/on the F-35 yet?

I believe I read they're ordering additional F-35s or they're budgeting to order more.

And is their a/c going to have the same paint scheme as all the current F-35s?

Same paint scheme.

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Same paint scheme.

Yeah; I figured they haven't developed color for the RAM material and skin.

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I'm glad you enjoyed them, 30 minutes is usually pretty long for "internet attention span" but I loved every minute.

This is a little long as well, but covers the F-35 pretty comprehensively:

https://comprehensiv....wordpress.com/

So if you have the time, its got a lot of info.

I just finished reading most of what's on that link (There's still some links in there that I haven't read yet, though).

I have to say; Reinventing the wheel or rediscovering fire, accurately describes the F-35's capabilities/potential for the future of not only aerial combat but combat as a whole wacko.gif .

As I made my way down about half way on that web page, Col. John Boyd's OODA loop concept entered my mind and stayed there.

I'm convinced the master planners of the JSF project had a picture of Col. Boyd along with a large poster of his OODA loop diagram taped up on the wall of their conference room so as to keep them focused on the most important goal when they sat down to design the now F-35.

The list of capabilities the F-35 will be able to perform once it's fully operational is beyond incredible! What drove home the point for me was when F-35 pilots, who are also 4th gen a/c drivers, describe how pilots transferring into the F-35 fleet will have a big challenge in setting aside their 4th gen. mentality and learn a completely whole new concept of 5th gen strategy. As an F-35 pilot stated; It's not learning how to fly the a/c, that's the easy part. It's learning how to take full advantage of the F-35's capabilities of vital intell. while on a mission. In a nutshell; The F-35 is a strike fighter with an incredible AWACS/Joint STARS platform that can instantly share vital real-time intell. without opening his or her mouth.

From what I've read so far; It appears the F-35s stealth capability is only a small part of the bigger picture yet it's stealth capability is still cutting edge technology. It's almost like, "Oh yeah; The F-35 also happens to have state of the art stealth technology as well." Rather than the other way around!

I'm going to be bold and say the F-35 platform almost makes the a/c it's replacing obsolete NOW!

A question I would like to ask the 5th gen gurus:

Once the F-35 fleet is up and fully operational in, say, 5 to 7 years; Will there still be a need for an AWACS platform like the E-2 or E-3?

Thanks again TT for sharing the link.

Here's a pic that makes a great point:

mMOVUcC.png

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Not a 5G guru, but I'd venture that existing AWACS/JSTARS will still have a niche... the F-35s can't be everywhere and bird-dog everything for everybody even when deployed in quantity, so the big old buses will still have a place feeding data to the older fighters until they're fully replaced. Think "Local" vs. "Regional" coverage--and I'd also expect the older birds to pick up a new role as relays and data-processors to help assemble and distribute the Big Picture.

Just an Armchair Analyst's two cents though--I would say Guarded Optimism is the order of the day.

Also, Cuda and other next-gen AAM concepts came up chewing the fat with an Eagle jock I know over at AOPA Forum--he mentioned his personal wishlist including some kind of "Advanced Long-Range AAM" with more Reach Out & Touch Someone than Slammer, but the stumbling block we both saw was that any future weapon has to fit into F-22 and F-35 bays--which means no bigger than the "box" formed by the fintips of an AIM-120C, possibly even needing a retractable-fin design and perhaps even one side "notched" to allow clearance space for the launcher.

Edited by Diamondback Six

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AWACS/JSTARS/RIVET JOINT will still be needed because the F-35, while it will be in most place at most times when the fleet is fully fleshed out, can't do all spectrum ISR on its own. You'll still need those HDLD assets to do some ISR grunt work.

One thing I don't see much discussion about is the EW system, which on this jet was pretty ok and will be upgraded.

As for Cuda, it's an LM project they've been pushing for years, no buyers. An extended range AAM is more constrained by length than diameter in both jets; fins on missiles are highly over rated. That of course discount external carry, which is a possibility for the F-35.

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What I find hilarious is the fact that part of the F-35's EW package is it's ability to hack into a perp's electronics w00t.gif !

If I understand correctly; The F-35's EW system is basically self-operating.

The pilot can focus on doing his pilot chit and not have to worry about messing with the system (EW).

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Nice pics TT :thumbsup: . From a modeling perspective its amazing how the paint takes on a different tone/sheen depending on the angle of the picture, lighting etc. It certainly may prove to be a more challenging AC to paint.

Regards,

Don.

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Nice pics TT 70.gif . From a modeling perspective its amazing how the paint takes on a different tone/sheen depending on the angle of the picture, lighting etc. It certainly may prove to be a more challenging AC to paint.

Regards,

Don.

You bring up an excellent point.

I have the A variant and in the process of acquiring the C variant.

I won't lie at all when I say painting the RAM scares the chit outta me BANGHEAD2.jpgrofl.gif!

Some of my rivet-counting disorder still remains and doing a proper/accurate/clean finish on a build is one of them.

I'm hoping a decal vendor/company produces decals for said RAM (HINT, HINT!).

Depending on cost, I just might commission a company to do it.

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I've seen the tape done up well, but not "right" in that the guy stayed on line perfectly, but the peculiar sheen was missing.

I sense "Raptor sheen part deux" coming up.

I had a chance to talk briefly with the KittyHawk rep at our recent IPMS show. Kind of a total tool. Standing in the middle of the vendor area, loudly and angrily complaining about how modelers want better accuracy, and what do they know. He was clearly not interested in any input or criticisms of any KH kit, to include the F-35. He went on about some armchair jockey who thought he knew more than their on staff pilot.

With all due to a guy like Waco, who probably can build a waaaaaayyy too accurate F-22 kit...most pilots don't seem to look at their aircraft with the same eyes modelers do. I've talked with too many pilots of various aircraft through the years asking fairly innocuous questions (in the guise of official chit chat) and getting honestly blank stares. They just don't care that the lower pitots on the underside of an F-15 are flattened tubes, not round. They care about details from the functional "will this kill me today?" perspective, not what freakin' shade of gray it is. I'm fairly certain there are less than three F-35 pilots who could off the top of their head tell you how many lightening holes are in the wheel hub.

And FWIW, the KH kit IMO makes a better F-35 OOB than either the Has or Academy F-22 does. They really only missed on a few details, like the IPP exhausts and the wheels.

As for the shipboard trials, I'd love to know what ALIS workaround they are using. If this is truly training-wheels-off, there's got to be some mess below decks. I'd also like to know what spares kit they went to sea with.

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May 19 The U.S. Marine Corps is "tracking very well" toward declaring a squadron of 10 F-35 jets built by Lockheed Martin Corp ready for initial combat use by July 15, Lieutenant General Jon Davis, the top general in charge of Marine Corps aviation, said on Tuesday.

In a step toward that goal, the Marine Corps will use an MV-22 tilt-rotor aircraft to transport part of the engine of the F-35 fighter jet to the USS Wasp amphibious ship during two weeks of testing that began Monday, Davis said.

"Unless something really weird happens, I think we'll be fine," he told reporters. He said he would not recommend the move until after a two-week operational readiness inspection showed the squadron was ready.

Six U.S. F-35B fighter jets landed on the USS Wasp on Monday, a milestone for the $391 billion F-35 fighter jet program as it nears the July declaration of "initial operational capability," or IOC. [iD:nL1N0Y92BV}

Davis said he would observe the testing during a trip to the USS Wasp, operating off the coast of Virginia, on Wednesday.

He will determine how easily the jets can be maneuvered around the flight deck and how well they can be repaired at sea, including possible work on the jet's F135 engine, built by Pratt & Whitney, a unit of United Technologies Corp.

The jet engine can be broken down into five parts for transport in protective cases that can be flown on an MV-22 Osprey and swapped out in case they were needed for repairs.

Davis said one of the modules would be flown to the ship to assess the difficulty of completing engine repair at sea. He said no actual swapout was planned unless necessary.

The testing will also assess the automated logistics system called ALIS. Davis said the system was performing "pretty well" and allowed jets to be serviced and returned to the flight line in about two hours, generally in line with other aircraft.

A new portable version of the ALIS system was also making progress, he said, but it would not include the engine until December after more software changes. For now, he said, technicians needed separate laptops to service the engines.

Lockheed on Monday said it was working to resolve "relatively minor" issues with the portable version of ALIS, but the problems should not impede the Marine Corps' ability to declare the jets ready for combat this summer. (Reporting by Andrea Shalal; Editing by Ken Wills)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/20/lockheed-martin-fighter-idUSL1N0YB03520150520

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