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MarkW

F-35 news roundup

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Easy buddy, unlike anywhere else on the innernetz we've got real expurts on this here thread. They design and build military jets for a living and are highly placed in The Program.

We know this because they consistently drop mad hints about it. Respect their authority or you'll get a mean .gif sent your way.

You've been warned.

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Ad Hominem......classy. His analysis is no worse than I've read on here and in some cases much better, but he's just an unqualified restaurant owner and you all are??? Exactly.

All I did was look for his background to see where he was coming from and found that. He's a good photographer, he may be a great restaurant owner and may or may not be a nice guy. But he's not a journalist and a piss-poor analyst.

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Easy buddy, unlike anywhere else on the innernetz we've got real expurts on this here thread. They design and build military jets for a living and are highly placed in The Program.

We know this because they consistently drop mad hints about it. Respect their authority or you'll get a mean .gif sent your way.

You've been warned.

-Gregg

Edited by GreyGhost

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Can... can we encourage a bunch of guys on the F-35 program to write scathing reviews about his business?

I know nothing about it, I have never even so much as sat there or even been to that state, so writing scathing reviews about how bad it sucks and how I could cook better with knowing how to boil water seems to be appropriate

oOdcDbS.gif

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But he's not a journalist and a piss-poor analyst.

Why isn't he a journalist? If he has done a piss poor analyst then why not explain why? Instead all we know is that in your opinion he sucks therefor his argument sucks...do you see the fallacy?

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Ad Hominem......classy. His analysis is no worse than I've read on here and in some cases much better, but he's just an unqualified restaurant owner and you all are??? Exactly.

I don't think I attacked him, I can't say the same thing for what he has said about my service, my fellow Marines, and my friends.

Who would have thunk he would engender such bad blood?

Why isn't he a journalist? If he has done a piss poor analyst then why not explain why? Instead all we know is that in your opinion he sucks therefor his argument sucks...do you see the fallacy?

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He is not a journalist because he doesn't adhere to journalistic standards. Hes a blogger on a car site, as far as I can tell he has no editor, no boss, and is not held accountable for accuracy, nor does he seem to issue retraction or apology. and most of his stories are regurgitation from elsewhere anyway:

– Take responsibility for the accuracy of their work. Verify information before releasing it. Use original sources whenever possible.

– Remember that neither speed nor format excuses inaccuracy.

– Provide context. Take special care not to misrepresent or oversimplify in promoting, previewing or summarizing a story.

– Gather, update and correct information throughout the life of a news story.

– Be cautious when making promises, but keep the promises they make.

– Identify sources clearly. The public is entitled to as much information as possible to judge the reliability and motivations of sources.

– Consider sources’ motives before promising anonymity. Reserve anonymity for sources who may face danger, retribution or other harm, and have information that cannot be obtained elsewhere. Explain why anonymity was granted.

– Diligently seek subjects of news coverage to allow them to respond to criticism or allegations of wrongdoing.

– Avoid undercover or other surreptitious methods of gathering information unless traditional, open methods will not yield information vital to the public.

– Be vigilant and courageous about holding those with power accountable. Give voice to the voiceless.

– Support the open and civil exchange of views, even views they find repugnant.

– Recognize a special obligation to serve as watchdogs over public affairs and government. Seek to ensure that the public’s business is conducted in the open, and that public records are open to all.

– Provide access to source material when it is relevant and appropriate.

– Boldly tell the story of the diversity and magnitude of the human experience. Seek sources whose voices we seldom hear.

– Avoid stereotyping. Journalists should examine the ways their values and experiences may shape their reporting.

– Label advocacy and commentary.

– Never deliberately distort facts or context, including visual information. Clearly label illustrations and re-enactments.

– Never plagiarize. Always attribute.

http://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp

I'll leave it up to you on where you think he acted outside the above, but I sure see a few that stick out, and he looks to have an agenda. He also doesn't bother to seek statement or defense from the other side. Its basically an editorial format.

As for being an analyst he routinely falls prey to those fallacies you are mentioning.

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The most obvious one off the top of my head rather than reading that trash and going point for point was "The F-35 Can't Run On Warm Gas From A Fuel Truck That Sat In The Sun" which took an air force times puff piece about some ground crew painting a truck white, and then inferred the above

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and at no point did he bother to check with anyone who had any experience in the subject. If he had he would find out its certainly not unique to the F-35, and of course the F-35 wasn't having any problems in the first place with that as it was. Its not uncommon for tyler to report on reports from reports in some cases he is 2 or even 3 degrees away from the source material and then adding his own spin to get dem clicks.

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He is not a journalist because he doesn't adhere to journalistic standards. Hes a blogger on a car site, as far as I can tell he has no editor, no boss, and is not held accountable for accuracy, nor does he seem to issue retraction or apology. and most of his stories are regurgitation from elsewhere anyway:

There is no standard as to what constitutes a journalist and bloggers are defined by our Courts as journalist. Right or wrong it's your opinion. This isn't anything new, simply a different format then what was previously the status quo.

As for being an analyst he routinely falls prey to those fallacies you are mentioning.

The most obvious one off the top of my head rather than reading that trash and going point for point was "The F-35 Can't Run On Warm Gas From A Fuel Truck That Sat In The Sun" which took an air force times puff piece about some ground crew painting a truck white, and then inferred the above

Where was he wrong? What "code" of journalism did he break when he wrote that piece?

and at no point did he bother to check with anyone who had any experience in the subject.

Do you know this or assume it? How do you go about getting a non biased response from the DoD or Lockheed?

Its not uncommon for tyler to report on reports from reports in some cases he is 2 or even 3 degrees away from the source material and then adding his own spin to get dem clicks.

"Tyler"...do you know him or are you using his first name in an attempt to debase his argument?

I went on his site and read this....I thought it was pretty good and just about the only popular medium out there to get a Q&A like this:

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/absolute-youngest-marine-in-the-f-35-test-force-shares-1716981177

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There is no standard as to what constitutes a journalist and bloggers are defined by our Courts as journalist. Right or wrong it's your opinion. This isn't anything new, simply a different format then what was previously the status quo.

Where was he wrong? What "code" of journalism did he break when he wrote that piece?

I think I linked to it...

Do you know this or assume it? How do you go about getting a non biased response from the DoD or Lockheed?

You can ask other sources for one, if he had he would find out things like this are not F-35 unique. You can also ask what he knew and what he assumed... so again:

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"Tyler"...do you know him or are you using his first name in an attempt to debase his argument?

Not really no, I thought nothing of it. I'll call him Hot Dog from here on out though.

I went on his site and read this....I thought it was pretty good and just about the only popular medium out there to get a Q&A like this:

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/absolute-youngest-marine-in-the-f-35-test-force-shares-1716981177

Hes fine when he does Q and A with people who do this for a living, its the "This is the suckiest bunch of suck to ever suck!" Tabloids That I take issue with.

Edited by TaiidanTomcat

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I think I linked to it...

You linked to the Society of Professional Journalism which used to be Sigma Delta Chi and in no way any type of authority.

Not really no, I thought nothing of it. I'll call him Hot Dog from here on out though.

So you say, but it is effective.

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You linked to the Society of Professional Journalism which used to be Sigma Delta Chi and in no way any type of authority.

I'm fairly certain there are rules and standards of conduct and ethics.

So you say, but it is effective.

I'll keep it in mind.

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LOL. Those refs made me laugh so hard I crapped my pants... figuratively speaking. It's a good think I was wearing my figurative depends.

:rofl:

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You linked to the Society of Professional Journalism which used to be Sigma Delta Chi and in no way any type of authority.

I'm fairly certain there are rules and standards of conduct and ethics.

No, no, admit it, TT. You've been outmanoeuvred! fulcrum1 has won! You will never find a source authoritative enough to satisfy fulcrum1's demand.

Mainly because.... there is no such authority. Courts may have decided that bloggers are journalists, but it's not up to courts or other governmental bodies to decide what journalist ethics or standards are. Mainly because "journalist" is not a protected job designation. Anyone can be a journalist! No training required! Got an opinion? Publish it and - hey - you, too, are a journalist!

You could argue, of course, that any journalist/newspaper/NGO-dealing-with-journalism/journalist "union"... that wants to be taken seriously will specify a set of ethics and that you could google "journalist standards" or "journalist ethics" and that you would find thousands of different sets of ethics that pretty much agree with each other on the basic points, that even when they're not written down there are "un-written rules", but, no, you're not going to find this spelled out in a way that fulcrum1 wants you to produce.

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Have I not said before, speaking from professsional experience *as* a Recovering Journo, that "Journalistic Ethics" is an oxymoron, and anyone who still believes the charade of them is half of one?

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I have to admit, I'm expecting to see posts explaining why this story, written by this guy, is bogus and not to be trusted, while one written by a blogger/hot dog vendor should be taken more seriously.

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missed-the-ad_zpstudwdlac.jpg

Hey now, some of us independent hot dog vendors hear some pretty juicy things from aviation experts when they are on their lunch breaks

Alvis 3.1.

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Hey now, some of us independent hot dog vendors hear some pretty juicy things from aviation experts when they are on their lunch breaks

Alvis 3.1.

Excellent point! He serves alcohol as well, so that could grease the wheels of those aviation experts even more...

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I think the ultimate litmus test for credibility is Ed Hochuli memes. If there was a picture of Ed eating a hot dog, well then, drop the mike.

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No, no, admit it, TT. You've been outmanoeuvred! fulcrum1 has won! You will never find a source authoritative enough to satisfy fulcrum1's demand.

Mainly because.... there is no such authority. Courts may have decided that bloggers are journalists, but it's not up to courts or other governmental bodies to decide what journalist ethics or standards are. Mainly because "journalist" is not a protected job designation. Anyone can be a journalist! No training required! Got an opinion? Publish it and - hey - you, too, are a journalist!

You could argue, of course, that any journalist/newspaper/NGO-dealing-with-journalism/journalist "union"... that wants to be taken seriously will specify a set of ethics and that you could google "journalist standards" or "journalist ethics" and that you would find thousands of different sets of ethics that pretty much agree with each other on the basic points, that even when they're not written down there are "un-written rules", but, no, you're not going to find this spelled out in a way that fulcrum1 wants you to produce.

projeto-fachada-sobrado-pequeno.gif

Well I guess I'm stuck. In a world where anyone can be a journalist, no one is a journalist. Suffice to say if Tyler is, he is biased and has an agenda.

Just under two weeks ago, we talked about a poorly-translated test report that gave critics of the Lockheed-Martin F-35 Lightning II ammunition to suddenly declare it the worst dogfighter ever.

In the time since that article, you can’t find an aviation-oriented website that hasn’t put its two cents in, declaring the F-35 everything from an F-4 clone, to an F-105, and even going as far as calling it a BVR failure.

So is the F-35 truly the worst fighter ever?

The standard U.S. Air Force Weapons School answer is, “It depends.”

AF-1 taxis to park after a test sortie at Edwards Air Force Base, California.

From an acquisitions standpoint, it’s in the running. Plagued by delays, setbacks, and budget overruns, it has had its share of issues. It’s also guilty of a terrible public relations campaign.

But at the end of the day, this aircraft has done one thing no other aircraft has ever been able to do – turn an entire generation of aviation bloggers, journalists, and commenters into overnight military aviation experts.

It’s simply fascinating to watch every hipster who’s ever played Ace Combat sit back and pontificate about the downfalls of an aircraft that hasn’t even reached IOC. It’s like a renaissance of air combat.

As the first fighter in the digital age, the F-35 has allowed people to watch and read about the results of flight tests in near real time, drawing their own conclusions as to the success or failure of the program. Security clearance? Who needs it? Wikipedia has everything that anyone who’s ever played Battlefield 4 on Playstation needs to know in order to realize that the F-35 is a sitting duck if you happen to get it after a respawn.

I’m just a lowly fourth-gen pilot, so my opinions might not be as valid as someone who’s read a leaked FOUO report on the internet, but before the million-man Strawman Army reaches full strength, it may be time to inject some sanity into this discussion:

\

More at the break

http://fightersweep.com/2698/f-35-worst-fighter-ever/

news:

http://news.usni.org/2015/07/13/f-35b-begins-new-operational-readiness-inspection-this-week-before-ioc-decision

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Might as well start learning Chinese now boys...

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/07/01/failure-of-new-u-s-weapons-systems-may-be-more-than-science-fiction/

TT, here we have an example of what many would consider to be a mainstream news organization absolutely slamming the F-35 as a complete and utter failure based upon a fictional novel. I don't see how you could ever question the journalistic credibility of a part-time photographer/hotdog salesman after this.

11bee: yes, you told us so. Based upon this I can only conclude the F-35 is an abject failure. What emoticon do I use for hanging my head in shame?

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Might as well start learning Chinese now boys...

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/07/01/failure-of-new-u-s-weapons-systems-may-be-more-than-science-fiction/

TT, here we have an example of what many would consider to be a mainstream news organization absolutely slamming the F-35 as a complete and utter failure based upon a fictional novel. I don't see how you could ever question the journalistic credibility of a part-time photographer/hotdog salesman after this.

11bee: yes, you told us so. Based upon this I can only conclude the F-35 is an abject failure. What emoticon do I use for hanging my head in shame?

We should probably just pack it all in. Clearly these weapons will never win on a real battlefield. Just like people said about the B-2, F-18, Osprey, F-22, F-15, B-1B, Super Hornet, Apache, Javelin, cruise missiles, bradley, abrams, stryker, F-16 etc...

I think we just need to go back to the F-4 but only if it has a gun

Edited by TaiidanTomcat

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Might as well start learning Chinese now boys...

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/07/01/failure-of-new-u-s-weapons-systems-may-be-more-than-science-fiction/

TT, here we have an example of what many would consider to be a mainstream news organization absolutely slamming the F-35 as a complete and utter failure based upon a fictional novel. I don't see how you could ever question the journalistic credibility of a part-time photographer/hotdog salesman after this.

Ghost Fleet is getting this kind of attention because of the two gentlemen who wrote the fictional novel. Amongst "real" journalist they have the street cred and sources which is why the book is making the rounds within certain defense circles and staff colleges.

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Except neither of them are on either program.

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Not sure if this is old new...or the writer's not a really a reporter/journalist or runs a taco stand or...bottom line Australia is out of the "B" model market.

http://defensetech.org/2015/07/10/australian-navy-cancels-order-for-the-f-35b-joint-strike-fighter/

From CNN today...they're definitely not journalists.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/16/politics/f-35-jsf-operational-costs/index.html

Edited by 82Whitey51

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