MarkW Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 Also keep in mind that Lockheed Martin is not going to cancel already awarded contracts. So technically, the existing Canadian contracts will not be affected. But for future LRIP or Full rate reproduction, you can bet your sweet patootie that they will go elsewhere if Canada drops out of the partnership. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gordon Shumway Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Whether Canadian manufacturers should get some work on F-35 or not based on if the Canadian govt. buys into it, is all politicking and would not be akin to any quality business sense. If I may? If a person where to go to say any automotive assembly plant for a job, would as a requirement to getting a job there mean that you would have to buy and drive that brand's motor vehicle? I think not. If you went say to a GM plant, not all the employees there would be in GM branded cars and the same likely goes with most any other brand of automobile manufacturer. If the parent LM feels that company "A" provides the best balance between costs, efficiency and quality of sub parts for say F-35, it should not be blocked out from the production chain if its Federal govt. goes another way with a purchase. This said whichever aircraft DnD Canada and Industry Canada selects, that plane's parent company will have to give an agreed to amount of industrial spin offs. So jobs will come to Canadian aerospace firms regardless. Whether plane "A" offers more or better jobs over planes "B" and/or "C" etc. is another debate for another time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
-Neu- Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) This said whichever aircraft DnD Canada and Industry Canada selects, that plane's parent company will have to give an agreed to amount of industrial spin offs. So jobs will come to Canadian aerospace firms regardless. Whether plane "A" offers more or better jobs over planes "B" and/or "C" etc. is another debate for another time. Except one option is promising 160% of the offsets its required to by law to provide all of them considered to be the most valuable. The others will struggle to get to 100%, the vast majority being not associated with their programs, and temporary in nature. Edited October 19, 2015 by -Neu- Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Whether Canadian manufacturers should get some work on F-35 or not based on if the Canadian govt. buys into it, is all politicking and would not be akin to any quality business sense. If I may? Actually, it is very good business sense. The money spent and the jobs created are significant incentives to keep members in the program. Why would these incentives be squandered by awarding the work to countries that don't participate? Nothing against Canada (or any other nation) but as an American, I would prefer to see more of these contracts be awarded to domestic firms but if not, at least to countries that are participating in the JSF program. I'm well aware of the "global economy" and understand the need to source out various portions of the program. Just would like to see this subcontracting provide the maximum benefit to the US, LM and the program itself. Edited October 19, 2015 by 11bee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Except one option is promising 160% of the offsets its required to by law to provide all of them considered to be the most valuable. The others will struggle to get to 100%, the vast majority being not associated with their programs, and temporary in nature. And just to elaborate on this Gordon, lets say for Example Rafale is picked and they open a line in Canada like they have promised its an order of around 50 airplanes (that 9 billion dollar cap) Even if this is spread over 5 years, IE 10 airplanes a year built. Its only 5 years worth of jobs. IE boom and bust. A plethora of hiring and then when the job is done in 5 years, its bye bye to the tens of thousands who built them. and the factory gets shuttered or a skeleton crew to keep the spares going. Not only that but "offsets" can be something as simple as holding a Conference somewhere in Canada over a weekend. Yes that counts. ITs hardly consistent or sustainable. JSF is steady work over decades for thousands of airplanes. That is bascially unbeatable (and all the competitors know this), and even more so when we consider the wages that these manufacturing jobs pay. In the US (Texas) they are about 250 percent higher than minimum wage. over 20 years? yes please. Actually, it is very good business sense. The money spent and the jobs created are significant incentives to keep members in the program. Why would these incentives be squandered by awarding the work to countries that don't participate? Nothing against Canada (or any other nation) but as an American, I would prefer to see more of these contracts be awarded to domestic firms but if not, at least to countries that are participating in the JSF program. I'm well aware of the "global economy" and understand the need to source out various portions of the program. Just would like to see this subcontracting provide the maximum benefit to the US, LM and the program itself. Hits it right on the head. The US is buying over 2,000 JSF, If Canada ends up buying zero, then yes I have an issue. The thing that really sucks for Canada is the production rate is moving up, things are spinning up in a big way, if Canada doesn't make a decision they still get left out of that because the contracts have to go somewhere, triple production in the next few years here. No time to waste. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phantom Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Well the election is over polls coming in.... The party that started the F-35 process is looking like they won, and watch just like the EH-101 they will toss all the money invested in penalties and waste.. Hopefully they buy something to replace the Hornet instead of a ....well what I want to say is getting too political. Lets hope the new party is not as bad as I fear. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Stay safe canada Bros. Hope you get to have an air force with the big boys Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Well the election is over polls coming in.... The party that started the F-35 process is looking like they won, and watch just like the EH-101 they will toss all the money invested in penalties and waste.. Hopefully they buy something to replace the Hornet instead of a ....well what I want to say is getting too political. Lets hope the new party is not as bad as I fear. This win means the end of the fighter fleet in Canada. He won't buy any replacements and will retire the CF-18 soon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gordon Shumway Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I think to be fair we should wait until Justin Trudeau actually gets sworn in and sets up his cabinet. Then wait to see how his government will establish its official policy for a competition. It's too early to pontificate on what new combat jet the RCAF will get. Don't rule out F-35 or any of the others yet. Politics can be a strange game and create strange bed fellows. I will say this if LM wants to keep the F-35 on the list for the RCAF, it's going to have to sweeten the spin offs to a point where the other choices can't cut it. It's as always about business and politics, J.T. knows this too. But NONE OF US HERE KNOW WHAT WILL COME! So lets all chill out and wait to see. It's not worth losing sleep yet or even over. Canada will get new combat jets for the RCAF, lets see how the process will unfold before some of us give ourselves ulcers and likely needless worry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkW Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 Great, now President Trump will have to build a Northern Wall too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
82Whitey51 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Well the election is over polls coming in.... The party that started the F-35 process is looking like they won, and watch just like the EH-101 they will toss all the money invested in penalties and waste.. Hopefully they buy something to replace the Hornet instead of a ....well what I want to say is getting too political. Lets hope the new party is not as bad as I fear. Fear not Canadians, we have your back! No, really, we do. Save your tax dollars. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Check Six Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Great, now President Trump will have to build a Northern Wall too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkW Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 They will need their tax dollars, as President Trump will build a Northern Wall, AND make THEM pay for it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I will say this if LM wants to keep the F-35 on the list for the RCAF, it's going to have to sweeten the spin offs to a point where the other choices can't cut it. Already done. But NONE OF US HERE KNOW WHAT WILL COME! So lets all chill out and wait to see. It's not worth losing sleep yet or even over. Canada will get new combat jets for the RCAF, lets see how the process will unfold before some of us give ourselves ulcers and likely needless worry. Its going to take years. Worth noting the same thing happened in Australia and they did a 360 and ran right at the JSF after they realized what it was. Great, now President Trump will have to build a Northern Wall too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
82Whitey51 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 If all else fails... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jpk Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Trump, prez....? LOL. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 If all else fails... Too modern Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jpk Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 It really amazes me sometimes when I come here as to the lunacy of some of the subtle political jabs that some people make here and actually believe it will come to pass. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkW Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 LM is concerned about the immediacy of now, knowing that a bird in the hand beats a flock anywhere else. If Canada punts, better for the rest of the program. Other partners can get their specific weapons certs moved up in the schedule. The FMS guys are chomping at the bit to accelerate buys and take up those slots the partners are holding on to but not committing to. In reality, I predict Canada will hand wring some, stay just involved enough to string their membership and IP along, then jump right back in when the URF has dropped due to increased/full production rates. Which is what Oz did...delayed just long enough to shave a few million per unit off the jet. Early adopters are paying for the left side of the cost bath tub right now. Oh, and LM doesn't work for Kendall, the military, or America. They never forget who they work for...the shareholders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Check Six Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 If all else fails... No, no, no. It should say: TOMCAT; EH?! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sweier Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) But NONE OF US HERE KNOW WHAT WILL COME! So lets all chill out and wait to see. It's not worth losing sleep yet or even over. Canada will get new combat jets for the RCAF, lets see how the process will unfold before some of us give ourselves ulcers and likely needless worry. Its going to take years. Worth noting the same thing happened in Australia and they did a 360 and ran right at the JSF after they realized what it was. Source? Sounds like bull to me. Shane Edited October 21, 2015 by sweier Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkW Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 LMGTFY. Seriously, Google "Australia reconsiders F-35". It's not like there is some mysterious source here, unless you count Reuters. 2011 timeframe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkW Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) Oh noes! Canada in Crisis!! The Liberals are coming, the Liberals are coming...oh wait, they already came. And yet the Blue Jays are still going to lose today. http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2015/10/20/Canada-election-results-threaten-F-35-program/4971445365571/ http://fortune.com/tag/f-35/ But perhaps no one in the aerospace world stands to come out a bigger winner from Monday’s election than Boeing. The manufacturer makes the F/A-18 Hornet jets, which is a cousin of Canada’s current fleet of CF-18s fighter jets. “The cheapest way they could go might be the Gripen, but frankly the biggest potential winner from the election is the Super Hornet,” says Richard Aboulafia, vice president of analysis at aerospace and defense consultants Teal Group. “It fits into their existing fleet, it’s a relatively low-cost option, and it has two engines which Canada has historically preferred.” I know there is some commonality, but to say the SuperHornet "fits into" the existing CF-18 fleet is a bit of a stretch. Edited October 21, 2015 by MarkW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Oh noes! Canada in Crisis!! The Liberals are coming, the Liberals are coming...oh wait, they already came. And yet the Blue Jays are still going to lose today. http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2015/10/20/Canada-election-results-threaten-F-35-program/4971445365571/ http://fortune.com/tag/f-35/ I know there is some commonality, but to say the SuperHornet "fits into" the existing CF-18 fleet is a bit of a stretch. Of course it is, but that would require basic knowledge. Canada to pull out of bombing campaign against ISIS"He understands the commitments I've made around ending the combat mission," Trudeau told reporters Tuesday, without giving a time frame for when Canada's airstrikes would stop. Trudeau is expected to take office in the coming weeks, replacing Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper, who sent Canadian warplanes to carry out airstrikes against ISIS. Canada's bombing raids started hitting the Islamic extremist group's positions in Iraq in November 2014 and expanded into Syria in April. As of last week, Canada's six Hornet fighters in the region had flown 1,046 sorties in the anti-ISIS operation, according to the military, which didn't specify how many of the flights involved airstrikes. Other aircraft have conducted hundreds of refueling and reconnaissance missions. Pulling back the eh team? Thanks guy we will take it from here Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phantom Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Don't blame (most of us) for Trudeau, I sure as crap didn't vote for him and his backing down from a fight stance......Oh, the Blue Jays WON today. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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