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F-35 news roundup


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I think this website listed as a JSF-Hater, along with a bunch of other sites but to my surprise, they have posted a complimentary article about the F-35.  4 Marine's talk about their experience with the F-35B.

 

https://theaviationist.com/2016/12/08/four-of-the-most-experienced-usmc-f-35b-pilots-speak-about-their-aircraft-and-they-say-its-exceptional/

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1 hour ago, MarkW said:

Meaningless, as are all the rest of the tweets.  The train has already left the station and BA would need 15 years to get an equivalent aircraft into full production..  

 

How much would you wager that some of his inner circle makes a killing in the stock market every time he launches on one of these companies?

 

 

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4 hours ago, 11bee said:

Meaningless, as are all the rest of the tweets.  The train has already left the station and BA would need 15 years to get an equivalent aircraft into full production..  

 

How much would you wager that some of his inner circle makes a killing in the stock market every time he launches on one of these companies?

 

 

I think he means actually replacing the F-35 with a F-18. Maybe a F-18H or I, but still something 4th gen.  It's absolutely astounding that he would suggest such ignorant idea.

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Problem is most of the R&D money had already been spent.  They are moving into the production and sustainment phase of the program.  With an advanced super hornet you'd have to start flight tests from the ground up which would cost more money.  Canceling get F35 now would be akin to canceling F22 after 122 aircraft.  You've already invested the sunk costs.  Cutting production just means you get less benefit for the investment you've already made.

 

I love the hornet but JSF is the future.

Edited by graves_09
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I highly doubt the F-35 is going anywhere nor do I put much stock (...pun intended...) in tweets and such. As others have already posted the F-35 is well beyond the point of no return and I suspect even the President-elect knows that. But hey, if a good old fashioned cage rattling or two could get the cost even marginally lowered or have lifetime pine scented air fresheners or coffee cup warmers included in the deal then I say rattle away.

Cheers!

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I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but maybe this will be bring some accountability into the process. The PERCEPTION is that companies like LM and Boeing milk the contracts for millions of dollars. It's been how long since the X-35 won the fly off and they are just now reaching squadron service? Again, I get that new technology takes time and the DoD changed the rules in the middle of the game. But some responsibility also has to be put on the contractors. If a contractor knows they can get shut out of acquisition, they may just stay as focused as possible to meet contract deadlines. 

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21 minutes ago, Darren Roberts said:

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but maybe this will be bring some accountability into the process. The PERCEPTION is that companies like LM and Boeing milk the contracts for millions of dollars. It's been how long since the X-35 won the fly off and they are just now reaching squadron service? Again, I get that new technology takes time and the DoD changed the rules in the middle of the game. But some responsibility also has to be put on the contractors. If a contractor knows they can get shut out of acquisition, they may just stay as focused as possible to meet contract deadlines. 

 

3AM tweets aren't going to change anything.  Agreed that the DOD acquisition process is broken but stuff like that is simply PR for his masses.   Lockheed will just release a press statement saying something like "We are committed to cost reductions" and everything goes on as usual.  

 

One thing I do like is his proposal to limit the "revolving door".  Something like that is long overdue.  Anyone want to wager where the good General Bogdan will end up upon retirement?   I'll humbly suggest he'll end up on the board of LM or Pratt or one of the other prime contractors of the JSF program.   There is no way you can be working for the interests of the armed services (or the taxpayer) when your long term gameplan is to retire and get a hack position with the contractors you were supposed to be overseeing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 12/8/2016 at 5:08 PM, 11bee said:

I think this website listed as a JSF-Hater, along with a bunch of other sites but to my surprise, they have posted a complimentary article about the F-35.  4 Marine's talk about their experience with the F-35B.

 

https://theaviationist.com/2016/12/08/four-of-the-most-experienced-usmc-f-35b-pilots-speak-about-their-aircraft-and-they-say-its-exceptional/

 

 

I don't know what is and isn;t on the "hate list". Not surprisingly we have more pilots flying it, and more pilots talking about it. Not surprisingly the more people use it, the more the like it, the more positive we hear. In line with your other post, the ship has sailed. Even Aviation week has changed their tune... of course The F-35 got into service, and then Bill Sweetman the chief rabble rouser got a job with Northrop Grumman (which Ironically makes major components of the F-35--thats called selling out kids) Leaving Aviation week and other publications to basically recognize the new aircraft, or continue to rock the 1980s. so reality has interjected. If you want to freeze out the largest defense/avaition program, I guess you can but others won't. There are always going to be unhappy people of course, and they will make their voices heard...Maybe they can start a "Not my Strike Fighter" movement? And I bought LM Stock when it dropped thanks to his tweets. 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Darren Roberts said:

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but maybe this will be bring some accountability into the process. The PERCEPTION is that companies like LM and Boeing milk the contracts for millions of dollars. It's been how long since the X-35 won the fly off and they are just now reaching squadron service? Again, I get that new technology takes time and the DoD changed the rules in the middle of the game. But some responsibility also has to be put on the contractors. If a contractor knows they can get shut out of acquisition, they may just stay as focused as possible to meet contract deadlines. 

 

right but perception isn't reality. You can't "shut contractors out" without basically some shady cleverness (Lets forego a competition by calling a completely new airplane a "Hornet Growth!!") 


 

Quote

 

 Pentagon IOT&E director Michael Gilmore — famous for his independence and his withering critiques of high-priced programs — has refused to allow work-arounds to save time, Bogdan said. The delays will add about $532 million to the cost of the program, but Bogdan said $100 million of that reflected past cuts imposed by the Pentagon to pay bills elsewhere...


 

http://breakingdefense.com/2016/12/33483/

 

Yes its the JPO throwing the DOT&E under the bus. The perception of things being out of control is what got us here. They keep on spending money and adding rules that further exacerbate the problems of cost and delays. I'm not saying they need to go ungoverned, but the level of micromanagement from massive beauracracys that soak up billions in the interest of saving millions is ridiculous. And thats before we get into political grand standers like McCain and Trump. 

 

Hopefully Trump can take office and start dealing with more "real problems" and leave the F-35 alone. We saw what happened when Boeing tried to make a JSF. Weve been there done that. 

 

http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=23985

 

 

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Pentagon IOT&E director Michael Gilmore

 

Among the more interesting problems Dr Gilmore has helped create is his insistence on side-by-side comparison testing....for example, requiring a flyoff of the F-35 vs. the A-10 to prove which one is better.  The problem is, how do you scope such a mission?  Given the vastly different capabilities of the two, it is nearly impossible to write an objective scenario which fully explores both aircraft's capabilities and yet allows for direct comparison. 

 

Additionally, given Dr Gilmore's position is an appointed, political position, it is probable there will be a new DOT&E Director shortly, which could see a significant change in the direction of the program's review process.

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1 hour ago, TaiidanTomcat said:

right but perception isn't reality. <...>

 

Dude! :woot.gif:  Where have you been all of 2016? Didn't you get the memo?

 

 

No offense intended, Darren. My remark wasn't aimed at your comment in particular, but  more about the world in 2016 in general.

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1 hour ago, Waco said:

 

Among the more interesting problems Dr Gilmore has helped create is his insistence on side-by-side comparison testing....for example, requiring a flyoff of the F-35 vs. the A-10 to prove which one is better.  The problem is, how do you scope such a mission?  Given the vastly different capabilities of the two, it is nearly impossible to write an objective scenario which fully explores both aircraft's capabilities and yet allows for direct comparison. 

 

Additionally, given Dr Gilmore's position is an appointed, political position, it is probable there will be a new DOT&E Director shortly, which could see a significant change in the direction of the program's review process.

 

 

It kills me that we want to waste millions on that dog and pony show, when we have A-10 pilots who fly F-35s that could easily do a briefing that explain the pros and cons of both platforms

 

But the king wants to see a duel.

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40 minutes ago, 11bee said:

Maybe we can then see fly-offs of the F-35 vrs AC-130, F-35 vrs AH-64 and F-35 vrs B-52?   We can finally determine which one is "better".  

 

 

 

Indeed!! Test Example: f-35 vs b-52. target is thousands of miles away, requires multiple crew and 70 some odd bombs. No refueling allowed must have at least 6 engines. Now let's spend millions of dollars to see who meets the criteria. 

 

Lol

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4 hours ago, 11bee said:

 

 

 

One thing I do like is his proposal to limit the "revolving door".  Something like that is long overdue.  

 

There are already a Myriad of laws for this. Dave Deptula got caught up in them recently. 

 

 

4 hours ago, 11bee said:

 

 

  There is no way you can be working for the interests of the armed services (or the taxpayer) when your long term gameplan is to retire and get a hack position with the contractors you were supposed to be overseeing. 

 

 

 

 

Interesting assertions all around. I worked for a contractor after I got out. Crazy to think I wasn't working in the interest of my nation, service, or the taxpayer. And that is how I planned it all along. 

 

Bigger question. How can this be ok:

 

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/watch-mccain-tears-into-air-force-general-over-embarrassing-a-10-answers/article/2584824

 

Quote

 

McCain received donations from nearly all of the largest defense contractors' PACs, with funding that includes $9,000 from Raytheon, $9,000 from Northrop Grumman, $5,000 from General Dynamics, and $2,500 each from Boeing and BAE Systems, Politico reported.

Another $5,000 each came from PACS for Textron, AM General, Orbital ATK and Emergent Biosolutions, as well as $2,600 from Austal USA.

 

The companies' CEOs are also donating heavily to McCain, reports Politico, with 
Northrop Grumman's Wes Bush giving $5,200; AM General President and CEO Charles Hall, $2,000; and General Electric President and CEO Jeffrey Immelt chipping in $5,400.

At Raytheon, which is based in Tucson, Arizona, employees have also donated more than $22,000 in March, which includes $5,400 from CEO Thomas Kennedy.

 

 

 

So just so we are clear on the Rules: Military Man retires. Does mandatory cooling period. Works for defense contractor thanks to experience in highly specific career field= Bad. 

 

Active Senator still in direct power is given donation by defense contractors= Meh at least its not a Quid Pro Quo or anything...

 

I don't have any issues with retired generals getting jobs with defense contractors so long as their wasn't a breech of trust, or bribery, or coercion or quid pro quo agreements that lead to certain decisions. Lots of generals retire and never work with defense companies whatsoever, however Senators, and congresscritiers are constantly facing reelections. And they receive money directly while "still in service" if you will. Which would be called a "bribe" should someone in uniform do the same thing. Then people like Scooter there haul CSAF in front of the Cameras to admonish him. Generals are small patatoes compared to politicians folks... but you will never guess who politicians are "concerned" about. Who politicians feel need "cooling periods" when money is involved. Senators especially people on the armed services committee like Scooter seem to be calling the plays more than the generals. 

 

I like having people who wore the uniform working on the stuff that people in uniform use. Not everyone who leaves the military goes into defense contracting, but a LOT of people in defense contracting are prior service. Which is where things get sticky. The bottom line is there seems to be enough oversight and watchers on the military side of the MIC that I would think it would be hard for a General to actually pull that off on anything of value, even if he had been bribed. Thousands of hours went into the JSF selection and it was analysis and comparison generated electronically. A General didn't just come in and say "its this one, Now to call them about that job the promised"

 

There are a myriad of problems with procurement. I actually think the generals are fairly low on the list. There are also fewer and fewer contractors. Bogdan worked with Boeing on the KC-46 Tanker, Northrop and LM with the F-35. Thats the big 3 right there. So if he wants a job with a major defense contractor he has worked with the 3 largest already. Him getting a job with them does not automatically mean he compromised his integrity, or his uniform. Getting that job doesn't "prove" anything. If you find evidence of wrongdoing then yes, but there are also plenty of cases of wrong doing and no job with a defense contractor after retirement is involved at all. 

 

TLDR? Having a patch eye doesn't make you pirate. Committing acts of Piracy makes you a Pirate. 

 

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the problem with the F-35 is this, you give up maneuverability and survivability for stealth and data link communications/electronic battlefield, guess what in the prefect scenario the F-35 will always be better, but the what ifs do matter, what if a heat seeking missile is after you,  you need high g turns, and what if a new stealth negating technology comes out, like in WW2 sonar really did the u-boats in.  So too big to fail is not a great idea, dont get me wrong, its a cool plane i jst wish it was cheaper, if there were only a way to mitigate the pain of shrinking the program to build  4th gen + replacements, silent eagle/superhornet and researching for 6th gen

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Where to begin...high g turns won't defeat modern heat seekers. 

 

"data link communications/electronic battlefield" isn't a trade off for speed or maneuverability.

 

And what exactly is a 6th gen fighter?

 

Finally, it was convoy tactics and radar, a combination of technology AND tactics, that reduced the wolf pack menace. Stealth has already proven vulnerable to that, which is why the F-35 relies on far more than X band signature reduction.

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On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 10:24 AM, 11bee said:

 

3AM tweets aren't going to change anything.  Agreed that the DOD acquisition process is broken but stuff like that is simply PR for his masses.   Lockheed will just release a press statement saying something like "We are committed to cost reductions" and everything goes on as usual.  

 

One thing I do like is his proposal to limit the "revolving door".  Something like that is long overdue.  Anyone want to wager where the good General Bogdan will end up upon retirement?   I'll humbly suggest he'll end up on the board of LM or Pratt or one of the other prime contractors of the JSF program.   There is no way you can be working for the interests of the armed services (or the taxpayer) when your long term gameplan is to retire and get a hack position with the contractors you were supposed to be overseeing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Who says the government doesn't create jobs? LOL. My brother in law retired as a commander, a brilliant engineer, then went to LM and then to Raytheon. He was working on the Zummie when he passed a few years ago but my sister gets his navy pension, healthcare and a pension from Raytheon as well.  She does quite well. I can see why people want those government jobs but they hate the government and it's spending unless they're feeding at the trough.

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On 12/26/2016 at 7:37 AM, DarkKnight said:

the problem with the F-35 is this, you give up maneuverability and survivability for stealth and data link communications/electronic battlefield, guess what in the prefect scenario the F-35 will always be better, but the what ifs do matter, what if a heat seeking missile is after you,  you need high g turns, and what if a new stealth negating technology comes out, like in WW2 sonar really did the u-boats in.  

 

 

Stealth IS survivability 

 

I like how new technology can only doom stealth. What if new technology makes everything before 5th generation obsolete? What if there is no amount of physical maneuvering that can save any aircraft? What if all the jamming in the world doesn't work to obscure non stealth aircraft? What if stand off weapons don't work?

 

What ifs cut both ways.

 

This is the continuous notion that the F-35 which is actually more maneuverable than the aircraft it's replacing is not going to cut it either. It's a 9G airplane with a higher T/W over the target and no drag from tanks or stores. One pilot compared it to a hornet with 4 engines! The F-22 proves that stealth doesn't automatically compromise what you claim.

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

So too big to fail is not a great idea, dont get me wrong, its a cool plane i jst wish it was cheaper, if there were only a way to mitigate the pain of shrinking the program to build  4th gen + replacements, silent eagle/superhornet and researching for 6th gen

 

You realize the F-35 can pull more Gs than the Super Hornet right? And it already costs less than a strike eagle? And how long do you think it would be before 6th gen shows up? They started researching ATF in 1981

 

 

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
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On 12/26/2016 at 6:37 AM, DarkKnight said:

.... to build  4th gen + replacements, silent eagle/superhornet and researching for 6th gen...


That's a fast way to get pilots killed. 

Gen 4+ platforms are not really all that survivable now, and will increasingly become less so with each year as advanced medium and long range SAM systems, like the S400+ family missiles become increasingly widespread. 

If you look at all the state players who we (the United States/NATO) could get into a serious shooting war with (China, Russia, Iran, North Korea) ..all of them are currently fielding SAM systems like the S300 and S400. 

Being "good enough" right now is being dead 5-10 years from now. 

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Im actually for resurrecting the F-22 Raptor production,  continuing the F-35, using the the F-35 to get a good price for F22s, rebuilding a-10s, selling F-22s to Israel, South Korea and Japan, I will get the money for this  by shutting off the free government cell phone programs

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