TaiidanTomcat Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 17 hours ago, MarkW said: I stand partially corrected. We have as much chance of France buying the SuperBug as we do selling them to North Korea... Is the Rafael line still open? I thought all eurocanards were done... The rafale line produces 2 a month. It's deliberately stretched. They are talking maybe 3 a month in a couple years but they are fine if it takes 40 years to produce their whole compliment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Emvar Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 5 hours ago, TaiidanTomcat said: The rafale line produces 2 a month. It's deliberately stretched. They are talking maybe 3 a month in a couple years but they are fine if it takes 40 years to produce their whole compliment. Wouldn't be surprised if Boeing screams bloody murder because it's subsidized..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alvis 3.1 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 On 6/14/2017 at 7:32 AM, TaiidanTomcat said: The Issue John, was that a lot of Canadians really believed your sarcasm there. They thought Boeing was just a great friend trying to get them away from the terrible money driven LM F-35 boondoggle that was totes forced on them. And again the Canadian media printed everything Boeing claimed with no check instead of saying "hey lets remember its the same type of people in the same business with the same objective" you're demonstrating the mind set pretty well there. Ironically LM was under far more scrutiny and burden of proof. there was no KPMG report run on Boeing but there certainly was on LM since the gov sole sourced it. So LM was forced to play by facts, while boeing could use fantasy. And we got this!! Boeing sees the Canadians as children BTW. and besides, We all know how smart kids are when it comes to money and trade offs and complex problems!! commercial isn't even original. So again I think its really funny that after 5 years of Boeing promises, when its finally time to put pen to parchment, Boeing (suddenly!) turns into two faced liars. No way!? Funny thing, I sold the Super Hornets to one of the people who made this, they couldn't find any around (we were out of the Revell one) so I unloaded a couple of the older Italeri Growlers instead (we'd discounted them and they still didn't sell). So basically, the only way he was able to get a Super was to buy something nobody else wanted. :) Alvis 3.1 Hobby Shop Minion Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkW Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 Same ironic argument applies to the Rafale...not exactly selling like hot cakes in spite of efforts that more than give them away. Didn't the Brazil Rafale deal include subs?! And they still lost to the Gripen. The Typhoons have sold, but are ridiculously expensive (thus sales to oil state hobby clubs). Gripen NG fits a cost/capability niche, I wonder why cost conscious Canada ruled them out so fast...ain't like the Arctic argument makes sense. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, MarkW said: Same ironic argument applies to the Rafale...not exactly selling like hot cakes in spite of efforts that more than give them away. Didn't the Brazil Rafale deal include subs?! And they still lost to the Gripen. The Typhoons have sold, but are ridiculously expensive (thus sales to oil state hobby clubs). Gripen NG fits a cost/capability niche, I wonder why cost conscious Canada ruled them out so fast...ain't like the Arctic argument makes sense. The RCAF has managed to make it known that there is no interest, which is why saab quit trying a few years back. There are still Gripen for Canada fans, but they are generally ignorant of even the basics of avaition. It's the F-35 for Canada right? Boeing is no persona non grata, it's not going to be European. Gripen E won't be ready for years, rafale has too many unique quirks, and typhoons it too expensive. So we are back to square one right? F-35 is a done deal? The program only improves by the day so time is on its side Edited June 17, 2017 by TaiidanTomcat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkW Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 IIRC, the biggest issue with the Gripen of any flavor is integrating the NATO comm suite. And then certifying all the weapons Canada would want...it might have payload and range and sensor issues too. But other than that, it could be a perfect fit! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 On 2017-06-17 at 7:11 AM, MarkW said: IIRC, the biggest issue with the Gripen of any flavor is integrating the NATO comm suite. And then certifying all the weapons Canada would want...it might have payload and range and sensor issues too. But other than that, it could be a perfect fit! I understand your post is tongue in cheek. The F-35 is the perfect fit, second to none. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 On 6/17/2017 at 7:44 AM, TaiidanTomcat said: ..... and typhoons it too expensive. More expensive than F-35 ????? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jonathan_Lotton Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 12 hours ago, habu2 said: More expensive than F-35 ????? Yep. Current price per unit for the Typhoon (without program cost factored in) is right about $100 Million each (at current exhange rate). The current price per unit for full production 2018 F-35 is $85 million, current LRIP10 is $95 million. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ken Cartwright Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) I think the costs are always difficult to pin down, because of they way the equipment is broken down. For example, do those costs include the engines? I think the Typhoon cost does, but not sure about the F-35, and that could make a big difference. Does the Typhoon cost include all the sensors needed to do everything it's being advertised to do, and what the F-35 can do with built-in features? I doubt that it does, which again could make a big difference. In other news, here's a couple of articles about the F-35's Paris Air Show appearance: http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show-2017/f-35-demo-pilot-paris-performance-will-crush-years-misinformation http://breakingdefense.com/2017/06/pilots-say-f-35-superior-within-visual-range-dogfight-criticisms-laid-to-rest/ I think this is an interesting quote about dogfighting: Gunn told reporters at a briefing here that he had gone up against a friend in an F-16 a few months ago. Though the F-35 “performed very well,” he made clear that it hadn’t been dominant. They flew again recently and the F-16 pilot was amazed by the improvement in the F-35’s performance. “What have they done to your jet?” the pilot said, according to Gunn. “The difference is we have learned how to fly the jet… and better understand where its advantages are.” Edited June 19, 2017 by Ken Cartwright Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jonathan_Lotton Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Yes the cost of the engine is factored into the F-35 flyaway cost. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 14 hours ago, habu2 said: More expensive than F-35 ????? Yes... for a while now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Jonathan_Lotton said: Yes the cost of the engine is factored into the F-35 flyaway cost. That is indeed how it "flies away" LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jonathan_Lotton Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 6 minutes ago, TaiidanTomcat said: That is indeed how it "flies away" LOL YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT.. Okay sorry for yelling. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Matt Foley Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gordon Shumway Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Matt Foley, Nice upload of the F-35A display video. As an airshow display, the F-35A accounted nicely for itself in terms of maneuverability. Though the display was a short display it looked as good as any Gen 4 aircraft. Last summer out at the Abbotsford Airshow there was an F-35A on display. I had a good few minute to talk to its pilot and he was a former Viper driver and he said he loved his years in the F-16, but now flying the F-35A he is totally on with that jet. He noted that it is as capable in ACM as any Gen 4 but he basically said to me if he gets into a merge he knew he messed up 40 miles earlier. If I recall correctly he also said the program on flight limits for the F-35A at the time was still limited to +7G -3G and it will be improved to +9G -3G. He was very clear and professional in his POV as a Lightning II pilot and I could sense he really loves flying this bird. His talking to me really pushed me onto the F-35A bandwagon. Prior to that talk I was still sort of on the fence between F-18E/F and F-35A for the RCAF. They also had two F-18F displays at the show last year, the standard USN display which is a nice F-18F display but later on in the show a Boeing piloted (it may have be Ricardo Travens ???) display with an F-18F in full air to air missile load out and it was a very good display and the F-18E/F are excellent combat jets, but really the better choice for the small RCAF combat jet force will be F-35A. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 http://business.financialpost.com/business-pmn/liberal-ministers-meet-lockheed-martin-at-paris-air-show-snub-boeing/wcm/e0009726-6688-4318-8a72-5acae0f9fa42 Canada getting back together with its ex, after brief love affair with Boeing Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 On 6/20/2017 at 8:05 AM, TaiidanTomcat said: http://business.financialpost.com/business-pmn/liberal-ministers-meet-lockheed-martin-at-paris-air-show-snub-boeing/wcm/e0009726-6688-4318-8a72-5acae0f9fa42 Canada getting back together with its ex, after brief love affair with Boeing I honestly think these theatrics are more about Canada being terrified of Boeing winning the Bombardier case than it is about Canada all of a sudden falling in love with the F-35. If Boeing prevails, it will have a devastating effect on the C-Series jet, a program which isn't exactly setting any sales records. From Boeing's perspective, it seems like the sale of a small number of SH's is secondary to the potential of driving a nail in the coffin of the C-Series, which has the potential to be a direct competitor to it's smaller capacity 737 models. And given that the USN looks to be ordering a significant number of SH's in the future, the loss of the (relatively) minor Canadian order, if it actually happens, isn't going to be driving anyone in Chicago to tears. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Emvar Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Realistically I don't think government is scared.... just peeved. This is not just about buying the SH but also replacement tankers attack helicopters and other equipment. The C series will continue on..... I'm thinking Delta Airlines will be the one with the largest opposition to Boeing. In the big scheme of things this is a small pissing match..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Emvar said: Realistically I don't think government is scared.... just peeved. This is not just about buying the SH but also replacement tankers attack helicopters and other equipment. The C series will continue on..... I'm thinking Delta Airlines will be the one with the largest opposition to Boeing. In the big scheme of things this is a small pissing match..... In the context of the SH/F-35 issue, yes. It will all work out and at some point, I think Canada will end up with F-35's. Stakes are a bit higher for Bombardier in the trade dispute. If the ruling goes against them, it will be a big hit to further sales in the world's largest regional jet market. As far as Delta goes, I think Boeing pretty much decided they weren't going to get a ton of business from them anyway. Agreed that by filing this suit, they pretty much wrote off any future orders from them. Out of curiosity, anyone know what the approx time frame is for a ruling on this complaint? Will be interesting to see what is found during the discovery process. I'd love to know what Delta really paid for those jets. Edited June 24, 2017 by 11bee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Emvar Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 (edited) I'm sure the deal was very good. Would love to have been a fly on the wall in that conference room. I think at this point delivering the planes is at the utmost... efficiency will be realized shortly and the orders I'm sure will come in once the operating data comes in. The biggest hurdle was getting that firm domestic order from Air Canada.... which ironically will be operating both C series 300 and 737-800/900max aircraft. Dumping the Embrear 190. The 787 has been a success for AC where the CEO has said that this aircraft was tailor made for the airline. I believe The F-35 will carry Canadian markings. Edited June 24, 2017 by Emvar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 What is ALIS? Here you go, courtesy of LM: On a related note, it sounds like VMFA-211 recently halted all flight ops due to problems with ALIS. Not sure if they are back flying or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 On 6/25/2017 at 6:47 AM, 11bee said: What is ALIS? Here you go, courtesy of LM: On a related note, it sounds like VMFA-211 recently halted all flight ops due to problems with ALIS. Not sure if they are back flying or not. Software patch had bugs. Back up in under 24 hours. One of my close friends helped In it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 That's cool and all but AIM-9X has proven to be easily spoofed by Soviet era decoy flares ... -Gregg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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