F-35 news roundup

[TaiidanTomcat]

I just mean more along the lines of votes that would support spending 5 billion on 18 interim aircraft.

[Don]

The whole thing boggles the mind and at some point you would have to think that common sense and logic will prevail. But then again when has common sense and logic ever come into play in politics anywhere in the world? To me the cost figures are key. The average person really has no clue what an F-35 is vs. a Super Hornet nor do they probably even care. But most tax payers everywhere get their dander up when they see/hear massive wasteful government spending. The interim SH deal is clearly massive wasteful government spending on a grand scale. That's why the article TT posted yesterday was so good and more like that need to come out of the Cdn media (not holding my breath though). Time will tell but September 25 may be an important date if Boeing wins its case against Bombardier...

[11bee]

On 9/13/2017 at 7:56 PM, Emvar said:

Yeah....... our Conservatives are left of anyone in the US government.

 

LOL.. some would argue that the Taliban are left of anyone in the US government.

 

The entire Canuk / SH discussion is a bit moot, is it not?  The deal isn't going to happen.  Boeing appears to be on track to win the Bombardier dispute, which if it plays out fully, will pretty much crush that company, since the largest market for those regional jets is the US.   Canada seems to have realized this and is playing all the cards it can, including getting the Brits involved (did you know that if Boeing wins, it could cause civil unrest in Northern Ireland?) and telling BA they'll purchase all those SH's as long as BA drops their case (that's the meeting that BA walked away from).  Starting to feel the panic up north.  There is no way that they could cut a deal for fighters from the same company that just devastated their domestic aerospace industry.   It's the CF-105 Arrow all over again lads!.

 

It does bear remembering that this is all predicated on Trump following through on his America Uber Alles trade policy.  Of course Trump as also been known to change his mind on the drop of a dime so I suppose there is still a chance for Bombardier. 

 

 

 

[Don]

Interesting "out" for JT though should Boeing win its case against Bombardier on or around the 25th and its allowed to stand. He could then go to the House, stand and declare that he tried his best to avoid buying the F-35 by doing his utmost to garner a deal with Boeing for SH's. But considering Boeings "attack" on Bombardier and the Canadian aerospace industry he (and therefore Canada) cannot possibly buy from them. So (gosh... golly... darn it all...dramatic pause) Canada will have to buy from Boeings competitor and that means the F-35 (JT wipes tear from his eye, sighs, places hand over his heart and stares mournfully at the cameras).  And the Cdn media will give him a pass...

 

...Or...

 

...A last minute deal is brokered where Boeing drops its case against Bombardier and JT secures the interim SH's whereupon he's hailed as a double hero in the adoring medias eyes for saving Bombardier AND getting Canada a "deal" for interim fighters.  This has the added benefit of allowing him to punt the new fighter selection beyond the next federal election. Win-win for Junior.

 

Again, I think whatever happens in the Boeing vs. Bombardier drama will determine the course JT takes.

[Scooby]

2 hours ago, Don said:

Interesting "out" for JT though should Boeing win its case against Bombardier on or around the 25th and its allowed to stand. He could then go to the House, stand and declare that he tried his best to avoid buying the F-35 by doing his utmost to garner a deal with Boeing for SH's. But considering Boeings "attack" on Bombardier and the Canadian aerospace industry he (and therefore Canada) cannot possibly buy from them. So (gosh... golly... darn it all...dramatic pause) Canada will have to buy from Boeings competitor and that means the F-35 (JT wipes tear from his eye, sighs, places hand over his heart and stares mournfully at the cameras).  And the Cdn media will give him a pass...

 

...Or...

 

...A last minute deal is brokered where Boeing drops its case against Bombardier and JT secures the interim SH's whereupon he's hailed as a double hero in the adoring medias eyes for saving Bombardier AND getting Canada a "deal" for interim fighters.  This has the added benefit of allowing him to punt the new fighter selection beyond the next federal election. Win-win for Junior.

 

Again, I think whatever happens in the Boeing vs. Bombardier drama will determine the course JT takes.

 

Scenario two is a loss for Canada. These 18 fighters will be the last in our inventory.

 

Either way Trudeau will be given a free ride by the media and in all honesty, by the Canadian public.

 

Canadians rarely speak up or make noise.

[TaiidanTomcat]

They seemed to make noise about the F-35. 

 

This stuff borders on collusion and conspiracy. How the F-35 is a scandal for the last government and the super hornet at 290 million per is nothing, is a travesty. 

[Alvis 3.1]

To reiterate, no politics. That means no slagging the politicians. Period. Say what you want about policy, technology, finances, or aircraft capabilities (like that itself never gets people's knickers in knots) but leave out the sniping about politicians. It never ends well. Eventually somebody's ox gets gored and it's all tears and lockdowns.
 

[TaiidanTomcat]

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/liberals-need-to-end-the-farce-over-fighter-jets/article36281581/?ref=https://www.theglobeandmail.com&

 

Back on topic

[Don]

The above article made some solid points (finally!). The dollar figures should (should) cause eyebrows to raise as they clearly illustrate  just how wasteful the interim SH idea will be. Also, when it listed how many SH's can be produced per year compared to how many F-35's can be produced per year right now and how many more will be produced per year when manufacturing fully ramps up in 2018 should clue people into which aircraft will be more easily and cheaply supported down the road.

 

Glad to see the Cdn media starting to show the other side of the coin .

 

[phantom]

That article nails it. Sadly the entire thing IS a political promise gone bad. Someone made a promise to appease a certain segment of society without the knowledge of what the RCAF needs. This new leader is just making the same mistakes of a another recent PM of the same party(EH-101). If the politics are not involved then we would be getting some 80 (not the previous 65) F-35s. I wish common sense would prevail but unfortunately its NOT looking good.

 

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

3 hours ago, phantom said:

That article nails it. Sadly the entire thing IS a political promise gone bad. Someone made a promise to appease a certain segment of society without the knowledge of what the RCAF needs. This new leader is just making the same mistakes of a another recent PM of the same party(EH-101). If the politics are not involved then we would be getting some 80 (not the previous 65) F-35s. I wish common sense would prevail but unfortunately its NOT looking good.

 

 

 I'm curious as to why that segment is now silent or doesn't care.

 

of the 10 most common gripes about F-35 cost is usually the first 5 or 6. 

 

Did that segment disappear or is it a classic case of "It's fine when my guy does it" 

 

Call it a stereotype but a lot of the most vehement people use cost as a club against buying any weapon system. They dont care about the capability. So the irony of suddenly also not caring about the cost is a bit spellbinding

[MacStingy]

3 hours ago, phantom said:

That article nails it. Sadly the entire thing IS a political promise gone bad. Someone made a promise to appease a certain segment of society without the knowledge of what the RCAF needs. This new leader is just making the same mistakes of a another recent PM of the same party(EH-101). If the politics are not involved then we would be getting some 80 (not the previous 65) F-35s. I wish common sense would prevail but unfortunately its NOT looking good.

 

 

Ah....common sense. They will first do extensive studies before they decide on that procurement.

[Scooby]

10 hours ago, phantom said:

That article nails it. Sadly the entire thing IS a political promise gone bad. Someone made a promise to appease a certain segment of society without the knowledge of what the RCAF needs. This new leader is just making the same mistakes of a another recent PM of the same party(EH-101). If the politics are not involved then we would be getting some 80 (not the previous 65) F-35s. I wish common sense would prevail but unfortunately its NOT looking good.

 

 

 

I never thought I'd say this, this mistake is greater than the Sea King fiasco.

 

We have invested more time and money into this than the EH-101 program. The EH-101 program was no slouch though, we were set to get 110% of our purchase price back through job creation and economic spin-off. Our aviation industry was to build 10% of the components in all EH-101 sold worldwide.

[Don]

More news on the Boeing vs. Bombardier show:

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canada-wont-buy-boeing-aircraft-until-company-drops-trade-complaint-against-bombardier-trudeau

 

...and the same but from ABC:

 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/trudeau-canada-stop-dealing-boeing-dispute-49933842

 

It almost sounds like Canada is nervous that Boeing will win its complaint against Bombardier and he-that-shall-not-be-named is doing everything he can to get them (Boeing) to drop their case or have the U.S. government intervene on his...errrr Canada's.... behalf.

 

But honestly, even if Boeing doesn't win its complaint or the U.S. government intervenes on Bombardier's behalf does he-that-shall-not-be-named actually think he can still purchase SH's after this whole fiasco AND in light of the cost figures of the SH vs. F-35 that have been floated in the Cdn media the last 48-72 hours?

 

It's shaping up to be an interesting week or so when the Boeing/Bombardier issue gets settled one way or the other.

[phantom]

And then we need tankers, for whatever we get, F-35 or F-18. Our old Airbus's will not last forever. Boeing wants to over charge us for Super Hornets (selling 18 to Canada for WAY more then they charged USN) and THEN hope for a tanker deal?

 

Those tankers will also be our transports. Just like the 707s that were replaced by Airbus, 3 are pure cargo, two had tanker pods bolted on. Sure we don't buy as many planes as the USAF or USN, but we still buy. Perhaps its time for Bombardier to develop its own big airframe that can also be used as a tanker.

[11bee]

2 hours ago, phantom said:

 Perhaps its time for Bombardier to develop its own big airframe that can also be used as a tanker.

They are struggling to build a competitive RJ but you think they should now build a widebody?  

[TaiidanTomcat]

2 hours ago, phantom said:

And then we need tankers, for whatever we get, F-35 or F-18. Our old Airbus's will not last forever. Boeing wants to over charge us for Super Hornets (selling 18 to Canada for WAY more then they charged USN)

 

 

I have no love for Boeing but purchasing super hornets via FMS opens them up to mandatory FMS fees. Buying super hornets also means they have to pay R&D fees for the program (stuff they escaped with JSF by paying into the program)

 

This also was submitted to the US government before the spat between Boeing and Canada. Boeing had zero incentive to Jack up the price when this deal was submitted to the US gov for approval. 

 

So believe it or not it's not gouging. That's just what they cost for this deal with what's outlined in the announcement. One of the major "irks" for me was Boeing was giving minimal costs that the US paid knowing Damn well that didn't include fees and actual total costs to Canadian politicians who were happy to repeat the lies so long as it wounded the status quo. Thats where the "omg jsf is 150 million SH only 65 million omg!" Narrative came from. As I already alluded to in previous posts. 

 

Again a SMALL number of people have been saying this for years, that once the final tally was found the SH would actually be more expensive, less effective, and obsolete sooner. 

 

SHs need fuel tanks for example that JSFs don't. Ditto for lots of the additional EW. Ditto for pylons. Repeat with targeting pods. Etc etc. 

 

It's nice to be right I guess. But it's hardly surprising. The Danes found out the super hornet was more expensive and published exactly that. We watched it lose in Japan. Boeing didn't even bother with Belgium. The ANAO published that their super hornets were more expensive than the F-35 years ago. 

 

Yet there are people who insist none of this is true even though you have 2 countries that operate both type In the US and Aus and they are saying the same things

 

There is basically one exception: the USN. F-35C costs more than super hornets and the USN has already paid billions into R&D operates hundreds of them already ams avoids the fees and start costs, and of course they are the only people in the world buying the C. If you compare export super hornet to F-35. F-35 wins in a walk, as all the competitions have shown when super bugs compete with F-35

Edited September 19, 2017 by TaiidanTomcat

[phantom]

7 hours ago, 11bee said:

They are struggling to build a competitive RJ but you think they should now build a widebody?  

 

 

I did not say they are ready. I said its time to think about the future.

[Aussie_superbug]

Canada are possibly looking at buying our classics...

 

http://australianaviation.com.au/2017/09/canada-considering-raaf-classic-hornets/

 

Considering ours are a couple yrs Younger  than yours, pretty good fatigue life in them as well.

[Don]

Some reader comments from the above linked Australian article that were interesting (seems Canadian procurement bungling is well known the world over):

 

"...The bigger issue here, is that Canada is stuck in a perpetual loop and can’t get it’s act together in deciding on a permanent replacement for their Classic fleet, which is on average a few years older than our own.

All a handful of ex RAAF Classic Hornets is going to do is put off making a final decision for a few more years, eg, let the next Canadian Government deal with the problem!..."

 

"I wouldn’t say they [Canada] are smart with their defence budget , more like no clue and very tight. They are not protecting their own people by constantly cutting funding. I think having a full and open fighter tender is a smart move though. My guess is the will go with the F-35 anyway..."

 

This one was bang on...

 

"...And as far as the politics in Canada (and I’ve followed Canadian politics in relation to Defence for many years), they are much worse than here, seriously!

Regardless of what we think of our politicians (and I don’t think much of them either), they never agree on anything, but they for the most part they agree on ‘defence’, for the most part we have a bipartisan approach to defence here, both sides usually support the other when it comes to defence acquisitions, I can’t remember the last time one side threatened to cancel a procurement decision of the other side.

Canada is the complete opposite, both sides use defence procurement decisions to bang the other side over the head with, hence both sides are too scared to make decisions and why the replacement of their Classic Hornet fleet (just one example), is a never ending hot potato, it’s always easier for their ‘current’ Government to find a way to ‘defer’ the decision to the following Government..."

 

 

[Aussie_superbug]

59 minutes ago, Don said:

Some reader comments from the above linked Australian article that were interesting (seems Canadian procurement bungling is well known the world over):

 

 

 

 

 

Don't worry, We Aussies have had our fair sharre of Defence procurment bungles as well. eg  SH-2(G) Sea Sprite, Tiger ARH. 

[TaiidanTomcat]

13 minutes ago, Aussie_superbug said:

 

Don't worry, We Aussies have had our fair sharre of Defence procurment bungles as well. eg  SH-2(G) Sea Sprite, Tiger ARH. 

Everyone does but the point still stands. Canadian defence being made political has basically crippled them. 

 

F-35 is a great real world example. The only reason they are not going forward is politics. Most recently because the new guy simply said he wouldn't buy them, so now he can't. Logical. Especially considering the conservative party is all for an F-35, I believe NDP desired a competition but isn't ruling out F-35. They remain in the F-35 program. F-35 is approved by the RCAF and public works, and I'm told no Canadians even care anyway.

 

But he said he wouldn't so now they are looking at very used legacy bugs to stretch the force (before buying F-35 anyway instead of just buying F-35s now and getting on with it like 12 other countries including Canadas closest allies who have all concluded it's the F-35.

 

It's utterly childish and wasteful. What's the point of doing all these studies and analysis if the boss is just going to pout and say "we can't buy them because I say so!"???

 

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

It also leaves little doubt that the Liberals are serious about walking away from a controversial plan to purchase 18 so-called "interim" Super Hornet fighter jets from Boeing if the company doesn't stand down.
Indeed, Trudeau also appeared to leave the door open to excluding Super Hornets entirely from any future competition to replace more broadly Canada's aging fleet of CF-18 jets with 88 new planes.
Such a move would be difficult given international trade laws, but if successful, it could represent a major blow to Boeing: the 88 new jets are expected to cost between $15 billion and $19 billion.
The U.S. State Department estimated last week that it would cost Canada more than $6 billion to buy 18 interim Super Hornets.
"We have obviously been looking at the Super Hornet aircraft from Boeing as a potential significant procurement of our new fighter jets," Trudeau said during a news conference on Parliament Hill.
"But we won't do business with a company that's busy trying to sue us and trying to put our aerospace workers out of business."

 

 

 

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/business/canada-won-t-do-business-with-boeing-while-it-s-busy-trying-to-sue-us-pm-1.3594780

 

Now Boeing doesn't get to be in the competition either? as trudeau threatens to take ball and go home yet again. Remember that 65 F-35 would cost 9 Billion...

 

No worries Boeing you of all people know the call for a competition was a farce. 

 

Guess it's the rafale or typhoons? Lol wow

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by TaiidanTomcat

[Don]

55 minutes ago, TaiidanTomcat said:

Guess it's the rafale or typhoons? Lol wow

 

Plenty of slightly used F/A-18's here for a good price.. white sunshades included and even comes with a free RF-4C to increase Canada's capabilities...

 

 

Lots of options left...

[11bee]

Boeing will even provide those plywood stands at the crazy, low discounted rate of $100,000 per aircraft.    With savings like that, you can't go wrong.   Call today for "gently used" Hornets, BA operators are standing by to take your order!