Jump to content
ARC Discussion Forums

MarkW

F-35 news roundup

Recommended Posts

Folks its just round one of a two or three round bout. Nothing is solid or even a certainty until spring or early summer 2018. Odds are the duty will get severely reduced to the 80-90% Boeing originally asked for or get thrown out all together. I doubt it will stand as is. Bottom line, if Bombardier can't survive this recent decision and get its bungling rail division on track (pun intended) for the next 6 or so months until this issue is resolved  then people should be questioning (and they are if you read the Cdn papers and comment sections) the leadership and viability of the company and its decisions over the last few years (which have been abysmal if we're honest).

 

But getting back to the original topic, the concern for the RCAF should be how this Boeing Vs. Bombardier distraction will affect the decision to find a replacement for the Cf-18's. Time is not on the RCAF's side. Common sense would lead one to believe that JT has a legitimate "out" to proceed with the F-35 purchase and use Boeing as the scape goat. Added to that the Québec Premier was quoted as saying this:

 

“Not a bolt, not a part, not a Boeing plane entering Canada as long as this conflict is not solved in a satisfactory way,’’ Couillard said at a news conference in Quebec City. “Quebec is attacked, Quebec will resist.’’ [I guess Bombardier is Québec now... or Québec is Bombardier...]

 

So JT can technically shelve the idea of buying used Australian Air Force legacy Hornets, again using Boeing as the excuse. He could kill two birds with one stone (save political face and finally get that new fighter monkey off his back) if he just rises in the House and seizes the moment. He'd be painted as a patriotic hero in the adoring medias eyes. But that would make common sense...

 

...Or...

 

The urgent need for a decision on the new fighter gets pushed to the back burner for the next half a year or so and more time is wasted, time the RCAF simply doesn't have.

 

Why do I see scenario #2 happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Scooby said:

 

Tell that to the Governor of CT. He expressed his concerns.

As gov of CT, he’s got more pressing concerns.   

 

I have no horse in this race, just find the issue to be pretty interesting.   Given all the threats and counter-threats, wonder if Donald will stick to his protectionist guns or if he’ll push BA to settle. 

 

You never know with that guy...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, phantom said:

 

 

The point is almost all these BIG companies have gotten government subsidies over the years. Look at the billions Canada and the US put in the auto industry a couple years ago. Only to have those same companies CLOSE some of those same plants. Either moving from Canada to the US or some US to Mexico. The entire thing is greed. A profit is one thing, greed and destroying competition is another.

 

 

It's almost like it's a great idea to separate government and business as much as possible, lest taxpayers start pumping money into non reciprocating losers. You keep the money out of politics, when keep politics out of money. But that ship has sailed, sunk, been refloated and sailed again.

 

Anywho in the US industry, there is a line separating civil and defense and we can on and on about Fungible assets etc. But in the end the government paying for  the governments fighters is hardly scandalous. 

 

This whole fiasco as Red Crown posted seems to underscore that bombadier is full of scoundrels who routinely rip the Canadian taxpayer off and hold politicians hostage for votes, but dammit they'Re our scoundrels and Boeing is a bunch of hypocrites!

 

Slander Boeing all you want. I'm not one of their fans. Go nuts. I'm simply pointing out that Boeing seemed to have a case. Just like 11bee said. Sue. Go nuts begun the trade wars have. But on a bright note, Zulu cobras and F-35s are fine consolation prizes, and I'm glad the super hornet "deal" is all but dead.

 

I've said it before. Watching all these bright eyed Canadians get a taste of the real Boeing has been absolutely hilarious. I actually had a Canadian tell me last year online that Canada and Boeing had a special relationship, and he expected Boeing to give them a discount on the Super Hornets. How's that working out for ya?

 

It could have been worse. Trust me. At least JR cant destroy your air force now and I can't wait to see where the engineered crises of needing fighters right now will go. 

 

Edited by TaiidanTomcat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Don said:

 

 

“Not a bolt, not a part, not a Boeing plane entering Canada as long as this conflict is not solved in a satisfactory way,’’ Couillard said at a news conference in Quebec City. “Quebec is attacked, Quebec will resist.’’ [I guess Bombardier is Québec now... or Québec is Bombardier...]

 

 

 

 

Pretty funny considering Boeing's gripe was that all those lines had blurred together. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny how Capitalism believes that private business creates inovation and greater competition and progress..... yet when the business gets big enough the goal is to eliminate competition because of innovation and competition. 

 

Really all companies recieve subsidies in forms of tax breaks, government investment or unfettered awards in contracts. Do I like Boeing Civil products.... heck yeah! But how much of a discount do you think they gave Air Canada to give up Airbus products and they took 25 E190 aircraft.....which they have tried to sell to Delta. It's the pot calling the kettle black. But realistically this initial ruling doesn't concern me because the US isn't the only market. 

 

Our little threat really doesn't matter because ultimately we will buy American made fighters regardless of what this or any other government says they will do. Not one government has ever kept their promises not the beloved blue or the scourge of the red. The question is whether it's the CF-35A Arrow 2 or the CF-188E/F Frelon 2.

 

Just my 3 cents rounded up to 5 cents because we don't use the penny.

Cheers

Emil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, phantom said:

 

 

The point is almost all these BIG companies have gotten government subsidies over the years. Look at the billions Canada and the US put in the auto industry a couple years ago. Only to have those same companies CLOSE some of those same plants. Either moving from Canada to the US or some US to Mexico. The entire thing is greed. A profit is one thing, greed and destroying competition is another.

 

Last I heard, "greed" was supposed to be a good thing in capitalism, as was destroying your competition.   When did the rules change from full contact to flag football?  These are big boy rules.  If Bombardier isn't ready for a fight, maybe they shouldn't be in the ring at all, as this article suggests:

 

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-time-to-bust-the-myth-canada-does-not-have-to-be-in-aerospace

 

Out of idle curiosity, since we are talking about all sorts of dire consequences for Boeing, I wonder how many Canadians are employed by BA?  Either directly or as subcontractors.   Might be more than the headcount of Bombardier in Quebec.   I'm sure in certain quarters down here, there are a good number of my fellow citizens who passionately resent BA for moving jobs from the US to Canada. 

 

This whole global trade thing is just crazy....

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This whole global trade thing provides jobs to everyone. NOT everything can come from the states. Other countries have a right to produce stuff and give jobs to their populace.  The big thing for me is Boieng does not even MAKE a product that is comparable to what they are suing Bombardier for.

 

But what the hell, its only Canada. Perhaps we should stick with making canoes and igloos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, phantom said:

But what the hell, its only Canada. Perhaps we should stick with making canoes and igloos.

Hey! If Grumman can make canoes...

Grumman-canoe.jpg

...then so can Bombardier!

 

But honestly Kayak's are where the big bucks are. Last I heard the Kayak now out sells the canoe...

 

Igloos are overrated. Too hard to heat and keep the dampness out.

 

PointingLaughingEmoji.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, dylan said:

 

Ahh Washington state..  

 

tenor.gif

 

 

I can't believe a no strings attached multibillion dollar tax break didn't work out they way they hoped*

 

*hope is not a course of action or standard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 11bee said:

 

Last I heard, "greed" was supposed to be a good thing in capitalism, as was destroying your competition.   When did the rules change from full contact to flag football?  These are big boy rules.  If Bombardier isn't ready for a fight, maybe they shouldn't be in the ring at all, as this article suggests:

 

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-time-to-bust-the-myth-canada-does-not-have-to-be-in-aerospace

 

Out of idle curiosity, since we are talking about all sorts of dire consequences for Boeing, I wonder how many Canadians are employed by BA?  Either directly or as subcontractors.   Might be more than the headcount of Bombardier in Quebec.   I'm sure in certain quarters down here, there are a good number of my fellow citizens who passionately resent BA for moving jobs from the US to Canada. 

 

This whole global trade thing is just crazy....

 

 

 

 It's not just crazy:

 

giphy.gif

 

I'm not trying to pile on and I'm not trying to be too political. But JR is learning if you look like food you get eaten. This guy has no experience In the real world and that's not a new criticism. He's a push over, and guess what, he's  being pushed over. Cute pictures of him in boxing gloves aside to make the voting house wives warm and tingly, the guy just isn't tough. And you bet people notice --especially cut-throats. And Boeing is cut-throat. 

 

That get out of aerospace article was fast! Hope they funnel that money into child care ASAP

Edited by TaiidanTomcat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This isn't a US vs Canada affair. And it's not a Boeing vs bombadier thing. I'm not an ideologue, I won't attack or defend them based in the lines and on the "sides" im "supposed" to be on. 

 

It's two snakes fighting and I can care less who's venom is worse or more deceptive and manipulative practices are worse. 

 

So the "but but Boeing..." jokes on you canucks --I've known they were shady for years. I hated Boeing lying to Canadians before it was cool.

 

 

welcome_to_the_jc27bb.0.jpg

 

Edited by TaiidanTomcat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, 11bee said:

As gov of CT, he’s got more pressing concerns.   

 

I have no horse in this race, just find the issue to be pretty interesting.   Given all the threats and counter-threats, wonder if Donald will stick to his protectionist guns or if he’ll push BA to settle. 

 

You never know with that guy...

 

20,000 US employees work for Bombardier.

 

Yes, you never know with Trump.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, TaiidanTomcat said:

This isn't a US vs Canada affair. And it's not a Boeing vs bombadier thing. I'm not an ideologue, I won't attack or defend them based in the lines and on the "sides" im "supposed" to be on. 

 

It's two snakes fighting and I can care less who's venom is worse or more deceptive and manipulative practices are worse. 

 

So the "but but Boeing..." jokes on you canucks --I've known they were shady for years. I hated Boeing lying to Canadians before it was cool.

welcome_to_the_jc27bb.0.jpg

 

 

The truth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like JT is sniffing around Kuwait for used Hornets:

 

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/09/28/defence-minister-harjit-sajjan-says-canada-considered-buying-kuwaiti-jets.html

 

But this was interesting (from the above article):

 

"But Kuwait won’t be ready to sell fast enough for Canada, Sajjan said, and the government is instead working closely with the Australians about possibly buying their jets..."We have looked at the capability of the Kuwaiti fighters,” Sajjan said. "The biggest thing is right now they are not currently available. But we still want to pursue every single option" [except the F-35 apparently...].

 

So, the whole news piece is really non-news I guess if Kuwait's Hornets won't be available for the RCAF?? Has anyone reported on when the Australian Hornets would be available? Comments in the Australian papers that I read make it seem as though their legacy Hornets aren't exactly sitting on the used fighter jet lot with "For Sale... buy me now" signs hanging from them. When is the earliest they would be available?

 

Oh... and did anyone mention to the Quebec Premier (...or remind JT for that matter) that used or not they're still a Boeing product...?

 

What is somewhat humorous is that, on one hand JT and his gang are saying "We need something now! We have a crisis! We need to make a decision on a solution now or else" the whole time being fixated on buying used Boeing legacy Hornets or new Super Hornets (...well not so much now I guess), while on the other hand they are completely ignoring the other obvious choice...the F-35. Its like he is bound and determined to avoid the F-35 no matter what even though Boeing served him an easy out on a silver platter. Couple that with the current hatred for Boeing in Canada and one wonders WTH are JT and the gang doing searching for a Boeing product (used or otherwise) and why hasn't anyone pointed that out in the media? Boggles the mind...

 

Buckle up RCAF...the can is getting kicked further down the road...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Don,

 

I heard that our Classics are still going to be operational unitl 20/21 time frame. That being said, 3 SQN are going to be the first to transition to the F-35,  that will release their Hornets to the pool to rotate between 77, 75 & 2 OCU,  Then 2 OCU, will transfer to the lighting , then its either 75 or 77 SQN 's or vise versa.  So I gather that they will keep the ones that are the better of the fleet flying then as soon as one goes U/S they will park it up. then offer the fleet up for sale.

 

Its's interesting that the Kuwaiti's won't release theirs, from another source that I have been told there got the lowest hrs of all the hornets as they haven't got enough spares and they are in relative good condition. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the info "Aussie_superbug". So 2020-2021 possible time frame for the Australian Hornets...factor in some overhauls and possible "Canadianization" or what not and we're looking at either late 2020 or late 2021/early 2022 time frame before they see operations with the RCAF (give or take). Not exactly a "quick" fix nor a lengthy one when you consider the current Cf-18 fleet can struggle through until 2025 with another major rework.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don,

Ideally its not the best solution for the Canadians, at the moment. but it maybe only one of many.

 

and i am one of those bad BA personnel. Just on the Aussie side 

Brendon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why isn't JT even hinting at the F-35; answer; he has learned from one of his old cronies!!

Go back in history and we hear a budding PM say the helo deal is too expensive and to save 'us' poor taxpayers money he will cancel it!! So he gets in and horror of horrors keeps an election promise!?!?? Now there was NO big saving in this; in fact it cost us another approx $700 or more million Loonies!! We lost lost production benefits and jobs and turned around and bought the same bl**dy chopper later!!!!!!???????

It must something in the Libs play book; say what you mean & do what you say??

 

Every one here is right it would be too easy for JT to say we will fight fire with fire WRT Boeing and purchase the competitions jet and hey; it turns out to be cheaper than those SHs, wow we got a bargain!!! The average Canuck on the street is not going to pay any great attention to this, as far too many are more worried about NHL superstars taking performance enhancing herbs and slashing to worry or even know anything about what the RCAF is up to!!

 

That my $.05 worth this is getting mind numbing, I just wish someone at the top of the hill would just give this annoying big snowball a push and get this thing done, EH!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Flyboyf18 said:

Why isn't JT even hinting at the F-35; answer; he has learned from one of his old cronies!!

Go back in history and we hear a budding PM say the helo deal is too expensive and to save 'us' poor taxpayers money he will cancel it!! So he gets in and horror of horrors keeps an election promise!?!?? Now there was NO big saving in this; in fact it cost us another approx $700 or more million Loonies!! We lost lost production benefits and jobs and turned around and bought the same bl**dy chopper later!!!!!!???????

It must something in the Libs play book; say what you mean & do what you say??

 

Every one here is right it would be too easy for JT to say we will fight fire with fire WRT Boeing and purchase the competitions jet and hey; it turns out to be cheaper than those SHs, wow we got a bargain!!! The average Canuck on the street is not going to pay any great attention to this, as far too many are more worried about NHL superstars taking performance enhancing herbs and slashing to worry or even know anything about what the RCAF is up to!!

 

That my $.05 worth this is getting mind numbing, I just wish someone at the top of the hill would just give this annoying big snowball a push and get this thing done, EH!

 

I've said much the same. JTs actions after the events this week should have solidified the F-35 purchase. Instead it demonstrates how pigheaded he is against the F-35.

 

Earlier in this thread I also said the average Canuck wouldn't say anything too. Sadly the support a lot of Canadians say we have isn't there as often or when it should be.

 

Canadian taxpayers have never realized we bought the same helo with a different name. We still paid the huge cancellation penalties.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Aussie_superbug said:

Don,

Ideally its not the best solution for the Canadians, at the moment. but it maybe only one of many.

 

and i am one of those bad BA personnel. Just on the Aussie side 

Brendon

 

Not the only solution, Lockheed said they could still deliver our F-35s in the same timeframe that we could upgrade the Aussie F-18s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to go OT and post something that doesn't involve Canada but has anyone seen any new pics of F-35's with that new paint job (doesn't have the pronounced RAM panels anymore)?  Thought they were painting recent jets in the new finish but I've yet to see anything except a pic a few months back of a single jet.  Actually considering building a model of this beast but really don't want to deal with all that masking. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, phantom said:

Boy, that is clean.

 

I'm hoping we can get some side by sides via a formation sometime with the "early" F-35 scheme. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...