Monogram B17 customization

[Superjew]

Im thinking of cutting the forward hatch in the open position to get into the bombardiers part of the airplane. Ive also considered opening up the door to the cockpit.

I also want to cut off the OOB flaps and replace them with Paragon flaps in the down position. Any tips on installing aftermarket flaps?

Do I just go crazy with a fresh exacto knife to cut these thick plastic parts, or is there some kind of tool that might do the job better?

[Steve N]

The main problem with cutting out the hatches would be trying to preserve the originals. When you say the door to the cockpit I assume you mean the one leading from the bombay to the flightdeck? This could easily be replace with a rectangular piece of styrene sheet.

The nose hatch would be the difficult part, since it's curved. Even if you could manage to cut it out neatly, the original would be too thick to be realistic. My advice would be to use a drill bit (by hand..even a Dremel on low speed can quickly melt the plastic) at the corners, then carefully cut away the rest, then make an new hatch with a curved piece of brass, or you could heat a bit of plastic sheet and gently form it to the fuselage t get the proper curve, then cut out the hatch. It might take several attempts to get it right.

As for the flaps, a razor saw would do the job much better and easier than a simple Xacto blade.

SN

[Neil]

Im thinking of cutting the forward hatch in the open position

The main problem with cutting out the hatches would be trying to preserve the originals.

B-17 access hatches/doors available here:

http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/PAR48052

(Nose hatch, Ball Turret Door, Rear Crew Door, Rear Fuselage Hatch).

[Jennings]

You only get to use them if you agree to call it a B-17, and not a B17

This is what a B17 looks like:

And this is a B-17:

[kg4kpg]

AH, nice Saab. Seen links for them in 1/72, wonder if there is a 1/48 out there???

[Bonehammer73]

Hope this helps...

Link

I did not even try to spare the doors. As Steve said, they are better off scratchbuilt and there is even aftermarket for them, so you are covered.

[richter111]

Hey I think using aluminum cans would be a great scale thickness, with a thin plastic inside.

[Matt_S]

Hope this helps...

Link

I did not even try to spare the doors. As Steve said, they are better off scratchbuilt and there is even aftermarket for them, so you are covered.

Did you ever get it finished?

Matt

[Kostucha]

I built the ProModeler B-17 a number of years back... a decade ago come to think of it now... dang, I feel old now... and in that one I opened up all the doors (inside and outside as well).

Firstly, the link that Bonehammer has provided of his amazing work shouldn't be taken lightly, very, very accurate indeed and the step by step, well, wow, this one should be pinned up on site as a reference for a very popular aircraft and what can be done with it.

Secondly, there are a number of aftermarket parts available for these hatches, sure, but, where's the fun in that? The Paragon doors, though shaped accurately, are still too thick in my opinion for 1/48. What I used, is exactly what Richter said - pop cans. Prefer beer cans though (drink a beer to get confident, use the metal from that can, and if it doesn't work the first time, have as many beers as is needed until it looks good...)

A pop can has a number of features that make them a worthwhile consideration:

1. They're thin, and are the closest scale thickness for a number of things, such as aluminum skin, cowel flaps, landing flaps, access panels, and doors, and many many more

2. Easy to work with, as you can cut them using anything you would use to cut regular paper such as scissors, knives, etc.

3. Easy to paint, glue, bend, and so forth. Before applying paint or glue, run 1000-1500 grit sandpaper (preferably wet sand paper) and that'll give you a rough enough surface to hold glue and paint, but smooth enough to look good.

4. Paint chips - taking a simple toothpick or metal pick, scrape around the edges, and pull the paint off to expose the metal underneath - it looks real because it is - for lack of a better phrase - an actual paint chip.

When it comes to making the doors (I can post up pictures later on today as I've got these kits to make it easier):

1. Take a piece of masking tape, and apply it to the door. Trace out the shape of the hatch. Take this piece of tape, cut around your trace and now you have a perfect match with your kit's door shape.

2. Cut out the hatch off the kit fuselage piece, there is NO real need to thin out the plastic from the inside around the the nose hatch to give it a thin look.

3. Apply the masking tape template to a piece of pop can, and cut it out.

4. To get the look of the inside of the panel, take a piece of thin sheet styrene, and shape it accordingly. Remembering that on the inside of the doors, these pieces were added to strengthen the door, and if you look on the real thing, there is NO space, or 'ring' around the indentations that will be seen between the full door/hatch, and the reinforcing piece on the inside of it, it's nice and flush from the inside (you can also see in this picture what I meant in step 2, about not needing to thin out the hatch access area from the inside as the frame is built up around it.

Picture of closed Nose Hatch from the inside

5. Sand lightly (as mentioned before), and keeping it's shape, glue the pieces together. Once done, add any handles, hinges, etc., afterwards.

6. Paint it, let it dry, and add any chips as you see necessary.

If I recall correctly, doing the hatches in this manner, especially the one up on the nose, took no more than 20 minutes to construct.

I hope this helps, and I'll try and replicate this at some point in the next little bit to give a pictorial step by step.

[Jennings]

A pop can has a number of features that make them a worthwhile consideration

That's a soda can to the rest of us...

[Superjew]

SO I guess the first step to customizing the flaps and some of the hatches and doors is to get a Razor saw, correct?

Im thinking of going with those aftermarket hatches someone linked me to.

BTW, I have a dremel with a bunch of bits, not sure how I would use that for making the model look better, but give me some insight. I am still new to dremeling.

Bonehammer, Your model looks amazing, I think Id be in way over my head if I tried some of your customizations, but Ill carefully read over how they were accomplished.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Superjew

[Bonehammer73]

Did you ever get it finished?

Matt

It's on temporary hold (yes, that happens a lot to me) because I made a mess with painting. I sprayed silver from a can on the rear fuselage and entrance hatch zone, but it pooled under the masking tape and ate the plastic in places. So I have to see if I can restore the surface finish. Either that, or covering it with the quilted lining, something I'm not too keen on... because 44-6316 seems to have been a bit of a flak magnet, and I don't think the crews bothered with putting the lining back on after repairs.

Superjew, the work I did is not difficult, only slow.

The dremelling I did was to thin the plastic in places (inside of main gear wells, around the nose hatch) and the air scoops around the engines. I mostly used the small cylindrical metal bit that came with the Dremel. A common mistake is insisting too long in the same place, thus melting the plastic, so I have to figure out in advance the areas which need work and move around (The min speed for my Dremel is a bit above 10,000 rpm as the switch has worn out)

[Superjew]

Im thinking of putting the elevators in the down position if I can succesfully do the flaps. Is that as simple as cutting them out with a razor saw and cementing them in a down position, or is there a modification for that as well?

edit: I just bought a tamiya scriber, can that be used to remove doors and cut out flaps, or should I go with the razor saw?

Edited July 19, 2010 by Superjew

[Chuck1945]

Im thinking of putting the elevators in the down position if I can succesfully do the flaps. Is that as simple as cutting them out with a razor saw and cementing them in a down position

edit: I just bought a tamiya scriber, can that be used to remove doors and cut out flaps, or should I go with the razor saw?

A razor saw works when you have a straight line cut to make. If the part to be cut out is curved or inside a larger part - such as a hatch - a razor saw will not work. Previous replies have explained different techniques to use to get hatch or door removed. If you are patient enough, a scriber can be used to remove parts, but it is a very slow process and not really the design purpose of scribers.

[Kostucha]

Rather than using a saw or an X-acto blade for cutting things like panels or flaps, ailerons, etc... here's what I use:

I use a strong string (read: Strong, not the frilly cheap stuff that snaps when you look at it sideways). Whenever I can't use string, I use the old string style of dental floss. Here's what you need:

1. String/Floss

2. A vice (or something to clamp the piece down nice and firm)

3. Tiny drill bit (for hatches, doors, etc)

That's it.

A. Ailerons, Elevators, Flaps, Rudders, and anything with an accessible start:

Clamping the piece in, usually fairly close to where the flap, or aileron, or whatever may be, I start making a "sawing" motion with the string, rubbing it on the plastic where I want the break to be. The thinner the string, the better. It then cuts through the plastic very quickly, especially the softer stuff. It's just key to remember to watch that it goes straight along where you want it to cut.

B. Hatches, Doors, Access Panels, etc:

Take the nose hatch on the B-17 for example. Along where one of the hinges is, take a very fine drill bit, and make a hole all the way through. Then using the same bit, poke the string through. In very much the same way as for the Ailerons, or Flaps, I start rubbing the string around the hatch, cutting my way through, and the string method with careful application allows for a very very smooth cut line around round shapes and so forth.

Hope this helps!

Mark.

[Bonehammer73]

Im thinking of putting the elevators in the down position if I can succesfully do the flaps. Is that as simple as cutting them out with a razor saw and cementing them in a down position, or is there a modification for that as well?

edit: I just bought a tamiya scriber, can that be used to remove doors and cut out flaps, or should I go with the razor saw?

I use a scalpel blade as a scriber (ie with the non-cutting edge) when removing flaps and slats. It does not take very long and the degree of control is excellent:

First you make a few passes with the ruler as a guide, then, when you have a nice deep groove, you can continue freehand. Once the groove is about 50% of the part thickness, bend the part a bit and you'll see a white line forming on the other, hidden side. Now your can use the cutting edge of the scalpel along the white line and the control surface will soon snap free.

This technique usually allows me to keep the kit flaps and slats after I've cut them:

[Sabre F-86]

Try this on for size. Get some bondo, (autobody putty) and mix it up. Apply some wax to the side of the fuselage around the door area, then apply a thick blob of bondo to the area. Let it harden and pop it off. Then take the female mold you just made and put some mold release on it, then brush on a thin layer of epoxy, and let it harden. Add the details of framing and such, then pop the completed door loose.

I did this when removing the upper door on my Planet models Julia.

Sabre

[chomper]

I am in the process of doing another B-17. This time I wanted to drop the flaps as well

as other goodies. I cut out the bottom of the wing along the lines of the flaps, and cleaned them up.

Then I cut the flaps from the casting blocks and layed them in place. The resin flap was significantly shorter.

Since I'm not sure if the error is with Monogram or Paragon, I patched up the bottom of the wing

and shelved the idea of dropped flaps. It would be interesting to hears other comments on this.

[Superjew]

I am in the process of doing another B-17. This time I wanted to drop the flaps as well

as other goodies. I cut out the bottom of the wing along the lines of the flaps, and cleaned them up.

Then I cut the flaps from the casting blocks and layed them in place. The resin flap was significantly shorter.

Since I'm not sure if the error is with Monogram or Paragon, I patched up the bottom of the wing

and shelved the idea of dropped flaps. It would be interesting to hears other comments on this.

I too noticed that my Paragon flaps are shorter than whats on the Monogram model. I was under the impression that they would be of higher quality. My best guess on how to solve this is to take one side and then putty in the scribed lines and sand them off so they look smooth with the wing and the paragon flap is its own separate part.

Any input on putting flaps in the down position on the B-17 would be helpful.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Superjew

[B-17 guy]

I havent done the flaps before but cant see it being that hard to just cut out the kit flaps and simply glue them back on in the down position, adding interior detail of course. Too many people are getting away from scratchbuilding and relying on aftermarket IMHO.

Alternatively, eduard has a full exterior detail PE set, including flaps.

[Superjew]

Any ideas on where I would find the Paragon Bombay doors and a Bombay detail set? Id rather put a universal carrier in the diorama I want to do and get rid of the bomb cart, so I could store the bombs inside the plane and open up the doors so they are still visible.

[WymanV]

Doesn't Hannats carry Paragon? I got mine on ebay.

Ken

[Superjew]

Problem with that link to the open hatches mod is I need to buy 30 pounds (Not dollars) worth of crap from that site for them to ship outside the UK.

Anyone have a site that will let me order JUST the open hatches?

[Kostucha]

SJ, which hatches in particular are you looking for? All 3? I've got some AM shtuff, and I'm not going to use some of it, the hatches included as well. I'd be more than happy to send you any hatches I do have to help out (I'm not sure about the nose, but I do have the crew access door for the back end).

[Superjew]

SJ, which hatches in particular are you looking for? All 3? I've got some AM shtuff, and I'm not going to use some of it, the hatches included as well. I'd be more than happy to send you any hatches I do have to help out (I'm not sure about the nose, but I do have the crew access door for the back end).

Im looking for the rear door, and the bombardier's hatch, I want to open those up.