UK possibly to pull out of F-35 programme

[Nigel Bunker]

According to the Sunday Times here in England, the UK is going to cancel it's order for F-35 aircraft and replace them with F-18 Super Hornets, saving about £10 billion. This follows on from the Govenment's decision to look for 25% up to 40% savings from all Government departments, Ministry of Defence included.

Do keep this non- political, guys.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Nigel Bunker

[Trigger]

And how expensive is that early-termination clause in the contract?

[Berkut]

If true, then this is huge news...

[11bee]

Kind of wondering if this was going to happen once they announced how deep those cut were going to be. If they opt out of the JSF program, what is the point of building those CV's? I didn't think that F-18's could fly from those new carriers (thought the deck was too small or there was some other reason) so what is the point of purchasing F-18's when they already have Typhoons which are roughly compatible? Or are they canceling the carrier program as well?

John

[Kei Lau]

According to the Sunday Times here in England, the UK is going to cancel it's order for F-35 aircraft and replace them with F-18 Super Hornets, saving about £10 billion. This follows on from the Govenment's decision to look for 25% up to 40% savings from all Government departments, Ministry of Defence included.

Do keep this non- political, guys.

UK to cancel the F-35 program for cost issue? Possible.

To replace the order with F/A-18E/F instead of more Eurofighter Typhoon? No sure how much credibility I can see in this report. It is true that the Super Hornet already got a proven AESA radar and the Typhoon's AESA still a few years away. But the Typhoon will mean more UK jobs and potential export. The decision, if there is one to make, is always political.

[Rick in Maine]

I, too, have been wondering if this was going to happen. If the UK pulls out, the cost for us is going to skyrocket. That's not something I'd like to see right now. I have to admit that F-18s for the UK looks like a pretty good alternative when the government is trying to save money.

Now that I've thought about this, I agree with Berkut. This IS huge news.

Rick in Maine

[Andre]

UK to cancel the F-35 program for cost issue? Possible.

To replace the order with F/A-18E/F instead of more Eurofighter Typhoon? No sure how much credibility I can see in this report. It is true that the Super Hornet already got a proven AESA radar and the Typhoon's AESA still a few years away. But the Typhoon will mean more UK jobs and potential export. The decision, if there is one to make, is always political.

Then again, what will it cost to beef up the Typhoon for carrier ops? Since the other participating Typhoon countries have no need for a naval variant, the full cost (whch will be quite a sum) will fall to the British.

I'm not fully up to snuff with the specs of the new British carriers, so I'm not sure if the Super Hornet could readily operate from them.

Cheers,

Andre

[richter111]

Plain and simple, our British brethren are having a hard economic time as well. I have heard of 25% cuts in the government sector, and unfortunately this will translate over into long term programs as well.

Rough economic times overall for the entire world. I would not be surprised if more countries follow suit.

[garthk]

Kind of wondering if this was going to happen once they announced how deep those cut were going to be. If they opt out of the JSF program, what is the point of building those CV's? I didn't think that F-18's could fly from those new carriers (thought the deck was too small or there was some other reason) so what is the point of purchasing F-18's when they already have Typhoons which are roughly compatible? Or are they canceling the carrier program as well?

John

IIRC, there was talk (and possibly a decision) to complete PoW in a Commando configuration and as an HMS Ocean replacement. They wanted to ditch her completely, but the termination costs were too high to do so. She would still have the ability to be converted back into a carrier, if needed.

Also, the QEs were designed to be upgradeable to catapult launch/arrested landing configuration, and there was at one point (may still be actually, I haven't followed these developments that closely in a year or two) a French plan to buy a third QE as a conventional CV to supplement de Gaulle.

I'd think that if the QEs were designed to be modified for conventional ops, then being able to fly SuperBugs would be part of the design. Especially if they were also designed to be able to handle navalized Typhoons, the CV variant of the F-35 and Rafales (albiet smaller than the E/F Hornet).

Hopefully not crossing the line here with delving into political stuff, but this may just be posturing to achieve some other end (better support for the second/alternative F-35 engine, which RR has a big stake in?).

[Nigel Bunker]

I didn't think that F-18's could fly from those new carriers

Well in terms of size, the new Queen Elizabeth class carriers are 932 ft long, whereas the Nimitz class are 1092 ft long, so not that much smaller. they will be bigger than the French Charles degaulle carrier, which is only 858 ft long, and has operated F-18s from it's deck, I believe.

Also, the design of QE2 carriers has always allowed for catapaults and arrestor gear to be fitted if required.

Hopefully not crossing the line here with delving into political stuff, but this may just be posturing to achieve some other end (better support for the second/alternative F-35 engine, which RR has a big stake in?).

i don't think it is posturing - we are apparently looking at a 25% minimum cut in all Government spending here in the UK - don't be suprised to see other Defence contracts be cancelled ( my money is on the UK to pull out of the A400M project, the price of which keeps escalating).

Edited August 1, 2010 by Nigel Bunker

[Vpanoptes]

Interesting news, IF (as previously noted) true and not just another P-word bargaining tool. Question: Is the pullout/cancellation supposedly from the whole Lightning II program or JUST the F-35B? In other words is the F-35C still a possibility or are our British cousins sharing/feeling some of the apparent nervousness the USN is having and hedging their bets with the Super Hornet, figuring they can always go to the -35C at some point in the future? Anybody have any real news, ideas or comments?

- Dan

Edited August 1, 2010 by Vpanoptes

[Julien (UK)]

Something has to give if the MOD like all govt departments have to cut spending and they will.

Interesting article from AP http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...eDlN7AD9HAJNAO0

that Europe as a whole will become less of a military power. We have already seen this in a lot of the smaller countries. Belgium for instance has a military which has shrunk considerably, as has The Netherlands and Denmark.

At one stage it was even talked about a Benelux force, though this seemed to go away.

Another good article from the FT http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a9544f66-935a-11...144feab49a.html

I also like Nigel think the A400 programme is going to go. Easy one to cut.

Julien

[FAR148]

Hard times = Hard decisions

Steven L

Edited August 2, 2010 by FAR148

[Linden Hill]

According to the Sunday Times here in England, the UK is going to cancel it's order for F-35 aircraft and replace them with F-18 Super Hornets, saving about £10 billion. This follows on from the Govenment's decision to look for 25% up to 40% savings from all Government departments, Ministry of Defence included.

Do keep this non- political, guys.

The (tiny) F-35 article in the Sunday Times I read today referred to the the possibility of the Royal Navy saving money by opting for the Super Hornet. It made no reference to the RAF's F-35 purchase at all. Thus I'd humbly submit that a 'UK cancellation' of the the F-35 is a little hyperbolic...

[Wayne S]

According to the Sunday Times here in England, the UK is going to cancel it's order for F-35 aircraft and replace them with F-18 Super Hornets, saving about £10 billion. This follows on from the Govenment's decision to look for 25% up to 40% savings from all Government departments, Ministry of Defence included.

Do keep this non- political, guys.

I will wait for news on this from the manufacturers web sites that I have seen nothing from yet. Seems speculation this weekend, HMS Prince of Wales was cancelled.

[wh1skea]

I had read somewhere that the new Royal Navy CV's were designed so that they could later be configured with the magnetic cats like the CVN-78's are being designed for. If they launch them with said cats, then there wouldn't be any problems with then to have Super Hornets.

[RedHeadKevin]

Yikes. Let's say, for a moment, that the F-35 program goes the way of the Comanche, and is cancelled outright. What would be a replacement for the USAF, USN and USMC? Would we just run old airframes into dust?

[Jennings]

Not a surprise at all. In fact, I'd be surprised if they'd stayed in the program. The UK is even more broke than the US (if that's possible), and it won't surprise me if eventually the F-35 is cancelled entirely. The AF put a lot of eggs in the (now virtually useless) F-22 program, and there just isn't the money for all these nifty whiz-bang weapons anymore.

J

[FAR148]

What would be a replacement for the USAF, USN and USMC

Steven L

[yardbird78]

What would be a replacement for the USAF, USN and USMC?

Super Hornets with the latest internal and external mods for USN and USMC.

F-16s with the latest internal and external mods for the USAF.

A lot more bang for the buck if the F-35 went away.

[Wayne S]

What would be a replacement for the USAF, USN and USMC? Would we just run old airframes into dust?

this

[Superjew]

this

Well if its any consolation, we plan on running the B52 until atleast 2040, by that time the airframe will be 90 years old. We've also gotten over 90 years worth of use out of the M2 Browning.

WIthout getting into politics, for those of us that live in America, heres a fun fact for ya according to wikipedia, it costs $3500 per capita to properly defend a citizen of the United States and a very large portion of that goes almost entirely to the DoD. Im robbing the treasury dry since I got $3k back on my tax return last Tax Return.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Superjew

[Julien (UK)]

Super Hornets with the latest internal and external mods for USN and USMC.

F-16s with the latest internal and external mods for the USAF.

A lot more bang for the buck if the F-35 went away.

Could work for the UK as well.

Though I advocate Rafale for the carriers so we can combine the fleet carriers with the French navy as 2 carriers were never going to be enough.

For the strike role for the RAF we can licence build the Grippen.

Julien

[GreyGhost]

I believe BAE is a major partner in the Gripen program, right ?

Might not be to hard to negotiate then ...

Gregg

[Jay Chladek]

But has the Gripen EVER been modified for carrier use? Its a pretty small airframe and sticking beefed up gear in it will cause weight to go up, performance to go down and the cost will most certainly GO UP. Anytime somebody suggests something like that, I think back to the T-45 Goshawk and the bandaid aerodynamic fixes that had to be done when during testing it was found there was more to it to making a BAE Hawk carrier capable then just bolting on a heavier set of landing gear.