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North Korean defection (?)


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Pedant's corner: Steve, I believe the PFM is fitted with the later KM-1M seat.

Yes....I do believe you are correct. I wonder if the seat was even working? I wonder if the pilot was even in the plane when it touched down......maybe he ejected and died in the ejection.....or maybe he ejected and is still on the run?

I suspect there is a lot more to this than meets the eye.

Yup.....I do believe you are correct. I suspect the leaders in Beijing are getting a little tired of the constant antics of North Korea..... N Korea sinking S. Korean navy vessels etc. After all.....China has everything to lose and nothing to gain from any sort of regional conflict. I suspec the leadership in China is shaking their heads and mumbling "Not again?!?!?" everytime N Korea gets in the news.

This is interesting....

According to an assessment by Jane’s, North Korean air force pilots manage to fly only 15-25 hours per year because of a shortage of aviation fuel. A MiG-21 was reported to have crashed in North Korea in April last year while on a reconnaissance mission.

Final question......did the pilot give the one finger salute to the N Korean border guards far below as he crossed the border into China? :)

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I know this will sound cold hearted, but who gives a crap about a N. Korean pilot who crashed in China? To be honest, I wish it were more N. Korean Pilots crashing over in China! Not enough as far as I'm concerned! He's a pampered pilot of a totalitarian regime for crying out loud! Who Cares! I don't!

Hard to respect a man as arrogant as you. Im sure karma will have its day....

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This is interesting....

According to an assessment by Jane’s, North Korean air force pilots manage to fly only 15-25 hours per year because of a shortage of aviation fuel. A MiG-21 was reported to have crashed in North Korea in April last year while on a reconnaissance mission.

And they claim they are an 'invincible' air arm! :cheers:

Quoted from >>HERE<<

SEOUL, Thursday 19 August 2010 (AFP) - North Korea boasted of its "invincible" air power on Thursday amid reports that one of its jet fighters crashed in China, killing the pilot.

The North's air force has grown to be an "invincible revolutionary armed force" since it was founded in 1947, the official Korean Central News Agency said.

North Korean pilots "fully demonstrated their combat capability" during the 1950-53 Korean War, it said.

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Yup.....I do believe you are correct. I suspect the leaders in Beijing are getting a little tired of the constant antics of North Korea..... N Korea sinking S. Korean navy vessels etc. After all.....China has everything to lose and nothing to gain from any sort of regional conflict. I suspec the leadership in China is shaking their heads and mumbling "Not again?!?!?" everytime N Korea gets in the news.

Not to mention the more practical costs of an unannounced incursion into Chinese airspace by anyone. If China's own air defense arms were caught unprepared, there'll be hell to pay. And if they weren't, the Chinese taxpayers will pay for the nuisance. For a country with such economic growth, military "incidents" just don't pay.

Well, the MiG-21PFM has been in service with the North Korean Air Force for at least 40 years. Series production ended in the 1960s.

If you look at the photos, the DPRK insignia is so faded as to be barely visible. That's probably indicative of the overall condition of the aircraft.

I agree with what you're suggesting. That plane was probably pretty well used by the time this guy took off in it for the last time.

Then again, here in the U.S., our F-15C fleet is looking pretty old, too, so I suppose I shouldn't be too judgmental! :cheers:

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Hard to respect a man as arrogant as you. Im sure karma will have its day....

Apologies to all. I'm not an arrogant man at all. I see things differently about N. Korea. I see them torpedo a S. Korean ship and sink it, killing innocent sailors. No response what so ever. I see a North Korea that literally enslaves their people and pampers their war machine. I see a N. Korea selling arms to Islamic Terrorist groups and radical Islamic countries such as Iran and Syria. I constantly see a N. Korea who rattles the sabre and threatens its neighbors all the time. I see a N. Korea who launches missiles in the direction of those neighbors. I see a N. Korea who has violated UN agreements and sanctions. I see a N. Korea who threatens to use nuclear weapons practically on a daily basis. North Korea is a vile place headed by a vile regime who adds nothing to this world but pain, misery, and death.

Yes, I should have been a lot more constructive about how I posted to add to the conversation. I just find it hard to glibly talk about a N. Korean plane that went down like none of the above matters. It's hard for me to feel sorry in this incident when this country brings about so much destruction to the world. A nation that has killed Americans and other NATO troops with the weapons, rockets, and missiles it supplies to rogue nations and known terrorist groups like Hamas and Al Qaeda.

I hope this sheds a bit more light on where I was coming from. Apologies to all for not having done so in a constructive tone and manner.

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I hope this sheds a bit more light on where I was coming from. Apologies to all for not having done so in a constructive tone and manner.

We all have our off days.

However, not to veer too much in a political direction, but I've seen a number of documentaries on daily life in North Korea and we who live in a more or less free society just cannot possibly imagine the impact of 60-odd years of all pervasive propaganda in a totally closed environment.

The average NorthKorean grunt most likely sincerely believes that all non-North Koreans are blonde blue-eyed devils who devour babies for breakfast.

Anyway - back on track. Have any more pictures popped up yet?

Cheers,

Andre

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The average NorthKorean grunt most likely sincerely believes that all non-North Koreans are blonde blue-eyed devils who devour babies for breakfast.

Anyway - back on track. Have any more pictures popped up yet?

Cheers,

Andre

Well, this thread have taught us there are people (in the western world) who believes that all North Koreans are dark-eyed devils who devour babies for breakfast.

Just sayin'. :)

(Not pointed at you Andre, at all)

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We all have our off days.

However, not to veer too much in a political direction, but I've seen a number of documentaries on daily life in North Korea and we who live in a more or less free society just cannot possibly imagine the impact of 60-odd years of all pervasive propaganda in a totally closed environment.

The average NorthKorean grunt most likely sincerely believes that all non-North Koreans are blonde blue-eyed devils who devour babies for breakfast.

Anyway - back on track. Have any more pictures popped up yet?

Cheers,

Andre

I'd hesitate to venture a guess as to the "average" in any society. The North Korean government spends much energy propagandizing, but historically, the success of propaganda among populations is a mixed bag. After all, if this individual decided to defect--still very much an "if"--how many more have similar sentiments, and might not fear the outside? Documentaries are problematic for many reasons, the simplest being the weakness of video media--strong generalizations are necessary to cram information into a limited time frame. Lest that sounds like a political comment, I'd argue it's the precise opposite. None of us have a strong handle on what North Korea truly looks like on the inside, so anything is necessarily speculation.

Generally, I'd speculate that North Korea's economic and infrastructural woes will prove the most decisive in its future. To the extent that they still maintain a large military, it will only hasten their economic decay. I have been told from numerous sources that there is ample evidence that at least their army--even those visible parts, at the DMZ--is showing serious signs of malnourishment, literally and figuratively. That is extraordinary; if the North Korean regime can no longer maintain their military at a robust level, this points to very, very serious problems even maintaining basic economic functions. Ironically, it seems to me, their very insistence on being a nation-state, maintaining organized military is their weakness; currently, non-state actors with irregular military forces are proving more sustainable and relevant in international affairs. After all, what good is having fighter aircraft if one cannot maintain and train such forces?

Edited by Fishwelding
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Well, this thread have taught us there are people (in the western world) who believes that all North Koreans are dark-eyed devils who devour babies for breakfast.

Just sayin'. :)

Err, what? :rolleyes: Who said that? Or even alluded to that? North Korea's regime is evil. There's no two ways about it. What they do to their own people is appalling and outrageous. They're starving their people to death. Whether on purpose, by negligence or economical incapability, that's evil.

From what we know from reports, their national football had to face a six-hour verbal barrage by selected citizens in a stadium for losing to the Portuguese in the World Cup. This was probably child's play compared to the labour camps they will be deported to.

And regarding the Dear Leader's international behaviour, there's this one cartoon that sums it up to the tee, in my eyes.

kim_jong_il_cartoon.jpeg

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Err, what? :) Who said that? Or even alluded to that? North Korea's regime is evil.

And i have never said that the NK regime is *not* evil. Because it definitely is. It is just attitude of a certain member here that makes me speechless.

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I would urge everyone here to give thought to Fishwielding's post.

I've lived in a communist (called itself socialist) regime - Yugoslavia. And we all know, Yugoslavia was one of the "progressive" communist countires...

From my interactions with people who haven't lived in such a regime, but only viewed it from the outside, I must, humbly, tell you that you cannot concieve such a thing. It is simply outside your scope of experience.

The internal social structure in such a regime is extremely complex - you basically have two systems - the official one and the unofficial one, and their interactions can be nonsensical to the point of insanity.

I, lived in a big city, and was able to go to church without consequences. 60 km away, in the countryside, people who went to church were blacklisted... And that's just one example.

Please do not automatically accept that all N. Koreans support the regime, but also do not dismiss the notion that while they may not support it, they may not want something else! A paradox, no?

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I would urge everyone here to give thought to Fishwielding's post.

I've lived in a communist (called itself socialist) regime - Yugoslavia. And we all know, Yugoslavia was one of the "progressive" communist countires...

From my interactions with people who haven't lived in such a regime, but only viewed it from the outside, I must, humbly, tell you that you cannot concieve such a thing. It is simply outside your scope of experience.

The internal social structure in such a regime is extremely complex - you basically have two systems - the official one and the unofficial one, and their interactions can be nonsensical to the point of insanity.

I, lived in a big city, and was able to go to church without consequences. 60 km away, in the countryside, people who went to church were blacklisted... And that's just one example.

Please do not automatically accept that all N. Koreans support the regime, but also do not dismiss the notion that while they may not support it, they may not want something else! A paradox, no?

Interesting examples! Things I've read about the internal workings of the Soviet Union's bureaucracies are fascinating. At times, the Soviets could be remarkably proficient; some of their impressive aircraft are an example. The continued use of Soyuz for space travel is another example. And yet, they were often hamstrung by the inherent bureaucratic problems built into their enormously complex regime. Plus, the growth of black or "gray" market economics outside the official economic planning and distribution engines was extraordinary.

In the case of North Korea, I'm not sure how much of an "ideal" Soviet-style socialism still exists. Some things I've read indicate that if such ever existed, it has been distorted or corrupted by personal leadership or factions. Moreover, as with other socialist regimes, it might have been constructed with the thought that North Korea would remain an ally to and somewhat dependent on the Soviet Union for many years longer than actually happened. Thus, even as a theoretical integrated and more-or-less self-sustaining economy, it was always incomplete. How easy is it for them to get anything like reliable replacement parts for their aircraft, for example?

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Try to stay with me on this one....

I once dated a girl whose parents were totally deaf (no, really, I’m not making this up). It was the strangest thing for me witness or get use to. At one point in the relationship I said to her “It must be really weird growing up with deaf parentsâ€, to which she immediately replied “It’s got to be really strange to grow up with parents that can hearâ€. Here was the lesson for me; The environment you grow up in, is normal to you. Anything different can be strange and upsetting, being seen as totally unnatural or just plain wrong.

North Koreans grow up in what is a totally natural environment, as seen from their perspective. It’s military believes (by indoctrination), that the rest of the free world is poised, just waiting to annihilate the people of N. Korea. Only its superior military and strong leadership has saved them from this happening.

Just search the net carefully, and you will see the kind of propaganda fed to the N. Korean’s on a daily basis. The artwork and posters displayed in NK depict the American military burning NK’s at the stakes, chopping up babies, pulling out the teeth of Korean women... etc. etc. etc. It goes on and on, day in and day out. It is taught in schools and ingrained in every aspect of daily life.

We are the barbarians to them. They believe God is on their side.

Whenever anyone wants to get out of NK, chances are they have a glimmer of what the truth about the rest of the free world is like. I pass all of my hopes and wishes to those that dream of and try to get out. And yes, I am sympathetic to those that die trying... military or civilian.

Edited by Miccara
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I would urge everyone here to give thought to Fishwielding's post.

I've lived in a communist (called itself socialist) regime - Yugoslavia. And we all know, Yugoslavia was one of the "progressive" communist countires...

From my interactions with people who haven't lived in such a regime, but only viewed it from the outside, I must, humbly, tell you that you cannot concieve such a thing. It is simply outside your scope of experience.

Beautifully and aptly put, Cvrle.

And the assumptions held that the N.Korean military, save the highest echelon, have substantially more than the average citizen is pure fiction.

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Sorry, I disagree. The military personnel of that regime are like the damned SS of the Nazi's who brutally hold their people down. They, and the regime, are the only ones eating food over there while the rest of the nation is subjected to slavery conditions and starves! I can appreciate him being human, but that's where it stops. I do not consider him a "patriot", but as an oppressor, a jack booted thug if you will. As a pilot, he's pampered, and not treated like an infantry soldier who would be pressed into service. He is the enemy, as all totalitarian regimes are. As Patton would say, "Don't die for your country, make the other dumb b*a*s*t*a*r*d die for his!". Well, I'd be willing to do that to Ill Kim Jong and those of his regime! It's my opinion and you don't have to agree with it, but don't compare that swine to American military folks who fight for freedom and against oppression of any kind. N. Koreans are not patriots, they are thugs!

Just curious, how do you know so much about the inner workings of the North Korean military personnel?

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Just curious, how do you know so much about the inner workings of the North Korean military personnel?

Had to study them in depth while in the military, they are the enemy that plagues us all and a rogue nation that can not be trusted. I'm also a military/diplomatic Historian. Hope that answers your question.

As for the N. Korean people, I can only pity them for the suffering they are forced to endure under Kim Il Jong. They do know what is happening in the outside world from S. Koreans they have contact with. The N. Korean military is a lot like the military machine under Hitler and Stalin. Pilots, are high ended military personnel that are thoroughly vetted and pampered. They are nothing like the infantry soldier who is virtually pressed into servitude and cannon fodder, much like the old Soviet Army of the late cold war.

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Had to study them in depth while in the military, they are the enemy that plagues us all and a rogue nation that can not be trusted. I'm also a military/diplomatic Historian. Hope that answers your question.

As for the N. Korean people, I can only pity them for the suffering they are forced to endure under Kim Il Jong. They do know what is happening in the outside world from S. Koreans they have contact with. The N. Korean military is a lot like the military machine under Hitler and Stalin. Pilots, are high ended military personnel that are thoroughly vetted and pampered. They are nothing like the infantry soldier who is virtually pressed into servitude and cannon fodder, much like the old Soviet Army of the late cold war.

Uh...well, things are a bit more complex than that. For one, the "military machines" under Hitler, Stalin, and the later Soviet Army are not entirely the same. Generally, comparisons to World War II are popular, emotionally satisfying, but of increasingly limited value. About the best that could be said here is that North Korea might be trying to maintain a twentieth-century, industrial-era mass army. But the situation in North Korea will necessarily be different due to cultural differences involved, too. Your best analogy might be with Stalin's military, but recognize that the Soviet economy was growing at that time, and still had a high degree of political momentum coming off the revolution. North Korea's beleaguered economy is not analogous to the Third Reich, either, except perhaps in it's final stages, and even then, the Third Reich was in a very, very different situation under active and losing military operations. Under Stalin, being higher up in the ranks was little virtue, given the political dangers under the NKVD. Military structures, or any human institution, must be considered within their cultural, social, historical, and economic contexts.

Moreover, be careful of flippant comparisons that might also easily extend to other countries outside your intention. In the late Soviet Army, conscription was employed to man line units in ground forces, some air and naval forces. Of course, this was the case in the United States Army until the early 1970s. "Cannon Fodder" is a value-laden term that could be reintepreted otherwise, into "citizen-soldiers," or "Workers' and Peasants' Liberating Army," just like "All-volunteer force" could be reinterpreted negatively into "military that collects or even preys upon those who have no other options in society."

Edited by Fishwelding
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I think that unless we find out definitively what was going through the pilot's mind - whic is unlikely - we shouldn't simply dismiss out of hand either him or his motivations through gross generalisations about the country he comes from. A fellow human being has died and no-one will think less of you if you have just a little bit of compassion.

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