Operation Iraqi Freedom closes.

[Antonov]

Just FYI...since you've elected to put "defense contractors" on your hit list there. Many defense contractors and DoD civilians spend time with our troops in the field and often find themselves in harm's way as well.

True enough. But my point was and is that defense contractors have their own interests, which sometimes coincide with those of the nation, the military, and the troops, and sometimes don't. Lockheed-Martin, for example, exists to sell fighter planes, not to defend freedom, and is answerable to its shareholders, not the American people. Anyone with a knowledge of our painfully broken military acquisitions process knows that defense contractors are often hideously dishonest. They fix weapons tests, lobby politicians endlessly, spread around campaign contributions, run a "revolving door" of highly paid employment between themselves, the Pentagon, and the DOD, often do their best to force expensive weapons of questionable effectiveness on a military that doesn't want or need them - all things consistent with their own interests and not necessarily anybody else's. That some of their employees spend time in the field on ridiculously lucrative contracts to keep their products running changes none of that.

Again, none of that is political (it happens just as much when Democrats run Washington as when Republicans do) - it's just reality.

I believe I read somewhere, the last soldier killed in the European Theatre of Operations, was killed seven years after VE day.

I remember that too. The last President brought that up after he declared combat operations to be over in Iraq, and it turned out they weren't.

The bottom line is that things definitively changed in World War II on May 8th, 1945 in a way that I can't figure out how they might have similarly changed in Iraq from last week to this week. We've still got thousands of armed US soldiers in the middle of a drawn-out, low-intensity war - less severe than Iraq was three years ago, more severe than Northern Ireland was at its worst - still getting killed and wounded. Iraq is still an unstable and violent country with a shaky government and a military of questionable abilities. Nobody is really any more sure this week of what will happen after the rest of the US troops leave at the end of next year than they were last week. Nobody is really any more sure this week whether the rest of the US troops really will leave at the end of next year than they were last week.

The whole "end of combat operations" thing just seems more like PR (timed a couple months before a crucial election, oddly enough) than reality.

And again, this kind of thing happens no matter who's running Washington. That's just how things are.

[The Mikester]

True enough. But my point was and is that defense contractors have their own interests, which sometimes coincide with those of the nation, the military, and the troops, and sometimes don't. Lockheed-Martin, for example, exists to sell fighter planes, not to defend freedom, and is answerable to its shareholders, not the American people. Anyone with a knowledge of our painfully broken military acquisitions process knows that defense contractors are often hideously dishonest. They fix weapons tests, lobby politicians endlessly, spread around campaign contributions, run a "revolving door" of highly paid employment between themselves, the Pentagon, and the DOD, often do their best to force expensive weapons of questionable effectiveness on a military that doesn't want or need them - all things consistent with their own interests and not necessarily anybody else's. That some of their employees spend time in the field on ridiculously lucrative contracts to keep their products running changes none of that.

Again, none of that is political (it happens just as much when Democrats run Washington as when Republicans do) - it's just reality.

Well you obviously seem to have all the answers.

A good portion of what you say is just plain wrong, but I'm not in the mood to argue so I'll leave it at that.

Edited August 23, 2010 by The Mikester

[Antonov]

I'm done too. No desire to upset people any further.

[TaiidanTomcat]

I do think "bringing them home" is a little misleading as well. Unless Kuwait and Afghanistan became states when I wasn't looking.

Statements like that seem harmful to me. It seems like the American public is really only aware of US Military Personnel when there is a war on. more folks are a little more out of harms way yes, but they are still away.

I am not using this as a "US out of everywhere" thing it just a lot of people forget the military is ALWAYS out there. Most Americans didn't even know we had a base in Cuba until Gitmo made the front pages due to its prison. How many Americans know we are in Diego Garcia, The Philippines, Djibouti, Kyrgyzstan, or just turning slow circles in an ocean somewhere?

A bunch of people (not just politicians) are probably thinking "well thats all done" and putting them out of their minds. if you told them there are 50,000 Americans in Iraq they would give you a silly look and say "wrong, we pulled out a while ago"

Edited August 23, 2010 by TaiidanTomcat

[11bee]

Lets remember that just because we come here to build models, talk models, get away from the real world, whatever the term of the day is, does not mean that we can't have an adult conversation about something happening in the real world. Nobody here is getting worked up about the politics behind the troops being called back, or redeployed to another theater. Folks are just pointing out the obvious, and discussing the ramifications of it.

We're grown ups, having a grown up conversation about a grownup topic. If somebody starts spouting political ideology, or using this as a forum to make personal attacks against somebody they disagree with (as happens frequently at some other sites) then their thread can be deleted, and the conversation can carry on. There is no need to panic people.

Very well said. It seems that some are way too quick on the trigger to clamor for a lockdown of a thread. Aside from a bit of theatrics, nothing on this thread was blatantly political, it seemed to me that it was just people having a difference of opinion on a pretty controversial subject.

Maybe the mods should change the rules and ban threads about controversial subjects instead. Then we can just talk about nice, relaxing topics like our pets and the best beer out there. Until that happens, we should let things go as is. I find the vast majority of the "heated" threads to be interesting, informative and if nothing else, they make you think about the other guy's viewpoints. No need to start locking down every thread in site once a few people get heated.

Regards,

John

[Superjew]

I personally think we should force every American to pay for the wars it fights than run up the debt. A lot of Americans look at war like its a football game with one clear winner and one clear loser, but thats not the case and we should have to pay for what we start. I think people would be a lot less likely to want to fight wars if we had to pay $3500 per American to finance defending Americans.

Afghanistan is such a debacle, I think we should pull out of there too.

[Fuji]

I do think "bringing them home" is a little misleading as well. Unless Kuwait and Afghanistan became states when I wasn't looking.

Statements like that seem harmful to me. It seems like the American public is really only aware of US Military Personnel when there is a war on. more folks are a little more out of harms way yes, but they are still away.

I am not using this as a "US out of everywhere" thing it just a lot of people forget the military is ALWAYS out there. Most Americans didn't even know we had a base in Cuba until Gitmo made the front pages due to its prison. How many Americans know we are in Diego Garcia, The Philippines, Djibouti, Kyrgyzstan, or just turning slow circles in an ocean somewhere?

A bunch of people (not just politicians) are probably thinking "well thats all done" and putting them out of their minds. if you told them there are 50,000 Americans in Iraq they would give you a silly look and say "wrong, we pulled out a while ago"

Really well said. I find it unfortunate that most of the US public, unless they know a soldier or have one in their family, thinks putting a yellow ribbon magnet on their SUV or Minivan is supporting the troops and that's where it stops. Funny how when they want to relocate a base, or something like that, the first thing that gets mobilized is some community organization opposed to having a military presence in their community. Scandalous! Depressing even.

As for the two wars and their controversy; I will not comment. I refuse to add fuel to or try to put out the fire. Nothing can do that now. It is a self perpetuation machine in the public and little ole Fuji and gonna change it.

I will say I value every single member of the US Armed Services and its Allies (past & present) in the War on Terror. My thanks to them for their service and commitment. My heart goes out to the families that have lost loved ones in these conflicts. May they and theirs know Peace someday.

[niart17]

I personally think we should force every American to pay for the wars it fights than run up the debt. A lot of Americans look at war like its a football game with one clear winner and one clear loser, but thats not the case and we should have to pay for what we start. I think people would be a lot less likely to want to fight wars if we had to pay $3500 per American to finance defending Americans.

Afghanistan is such a debacle, I think we should pull out of there too.

ummm...well since some of us are tax payers we do. It is afterall our money (whether they have it at the time or not) they are spending right?

I understand what you're saying and I think I know what you're getting at, but it's not like the average Joe had any say in whether we went to war. Just because some Americans support the effort and want an outcome that is positive for the U.S. doesn't mean they would have voted to go in the first place. Sometimes, you get in a situation you're not entirely happy to be in but that doesn't mean you should just up quit it. There are consequences of all actions and since you can't change the actions of the past you have to be aware of the consequences of the ones made now. And truth be told, usually I'd honestly rather pay for defending freedom than MANY of the other things our country wastes it's money on but that's a whole 'nother story. Not saying whether we should stay, go or whatever, just clarifying some people's view.

Bill

[TaiidanTomcat]

Just FYI...since you've elected to put "defense contractors" on your hit list there. Many defense contractors and DoD civilians spend time with our troops in the field and often find themselves in harm's way as well.

The Army's 160th Night Stalkers is staffed almost entirely by mechanics who had worked there for 3 years in the army then left and returned within weeks after landing the contracting job. same work, more money. Most base PXs are now run by Civilians... not the cutthroat crazy mercenaries we love to imagine, but that doesn't sell books does it? Base Gates are guarded by civilians. They look like mall cops. Again not scary.

The rise of defense contractors has little to do with wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and has been happening since about 1992. As Military machines get more complex and as the military shrank it became pretty apparent that there simply would not be enough military personnel to do everything. Thus even more civilian contractors were needed. My best friends dad was a Lt. Col. in the USMC and was very much against the personnel cuts, and he said it all the way back then "Having fewer people doesn't mean our work load gets lighter... they will have to get more bodies from somewhere" (he also laments that he never gets saluted by civilian gate guards)

I have several friends who were Recon Marines and joined a contracting company they make alot of money now to do VIP escort work and I am very happy they have found success. I like this a lot better than the idea that they might be drinking, begging on the streets, fighting the VA for weak benefits, or unemployed. For some reason contractors (who in the end work for the US Government --not the other way around) have gotten a reputation of being a bunch of amoral cowboys. Not really. In fact unlike the military they can be easily fired and replaced.

I attend a university and the shout of "mercenaries!" or "blackwater!" was often supposed to be the end of any argument. I always responded with this:

"I have friends who are contractors in Iraq. They are highly skilled and professional they do a job that very few people know how to do and they protect very important people from around the world, and for once they can earn some money doing a difficult military job. You should be so lucky the US Government is willing to overpay my friends-- If it was up to me I would just start a draft, rip a bunch of you out of this nice campus environment and send you to war. It would be cheaper. "

Edited August 24, 2010 by TaiidanTomcat

[Big Texan]

Just FYI...since you've elected to put "defense contractors" on your hit list there. Many defense contractors and DoD civilians spend time with our troops in the field and often find themselves in harm's way as well.

Just a little fact in the difference between Desert Storm and Son of Gulf War Part Deux. During Desert Storm, there were 8 G.I.'s to every defense contractor. In Gulf War II, there are now 8 contractors to every G.I. Why? A lot of it has to do with new weapons systems, security systems, IT systems, communications systems, and on and on. A lot of this was handled by military personnel in Desert Storm. Now its being maintained by contractors. In 1995, DoD thought it would be cheaper to do a lot of these functions by defense contractors rather than the use of military personnel.

My last assignment at Sheperd AFB, Witchita Falls, TX, back in 1992 - 1995, telephones, supply, ordinance, aircraft maintenance, and many other functions were taken over by contractors. That obviously has increased since 1995 in big ways. You know, we never thought back then that contractors would go to war. Well, things have changed dramatically since those days. Now we have contractors in war. Some are being killed, like those poor guys who were delivering food, water, and supplies to that Iraqi village, only to be captured by Al Qaida, tortured, killed, bodies hung on a bridge and burned. So, yes, contractors are paying a price as well over there.

As for the moving or not moving troops out of Iraq. We're still going to have troops there for a while in some capacity for sure. Granted, the Iraqi military and police are to carry the weight, but we're going to be there. Just look at Kosovo, we still have folks there now. We'll probably have them in Afghanistan as well for a good while. They are still present in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, and other places since Desert Storm. We are still in Europe and the Pacific after WW II, and the ending of the Cold War. We're still in Korea after that conflict. The only place we don't have our military, is Viet Nam. Not really sure about that now.

The politics of this, is just a game that both parties play, unfortunately. Remember, when politicians aren't kissing babies, they're stealing their lolipops! So, we had one President stand on an aircraft carrier that had a banner saying "Mission Accomplished". Even though it had nothing to do with what that President was there for, it was placed there by the Sailors and crew of that ship, that their mission was accomplished. Now, we have a Vice President who says "Mission Accomplished in Iraq". We all know it isn't over until the last soldier, marine, airman, and sailor comes home for good from over there. Too bad we can't say "Mission Accomplished", and send the politicians packing for home! If there ever was a time for Term Limits in our government, this sure seems to be it. Term Limits would end a lot of the "In-ca-hoots" with business and contractors. It would cut the strings, and they need to be cut. It would stop "ownership" of politicians in general because they wouldn't be there long enough. Yep, we need both parties, maybe even a third. They need to be healthy parties, the best of the parties, not all the dead corrupt weight that's in them now and have been there for 20 some odd years or more. They are truly like a cancer to this nation, and we need radiation, chemo therapy real bad to get rid of them.

I agree with many of you. It's hard to give an opinion on a topic like this without some politics bleeding through or gushing through. War, in and of itself, is politics. It's the harsh end of it.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Big Texan

[Fuji]

War, in and of itself, is politics. It's the harsh end of it.

"Politics is the womb in which war develops"

"The political object is the goal, war is the means of reaching it, and the means can never be considered in isolation from their purposes"

"War is not an independent phenomenon, but the continuation of politics by different means"

von Clausewitz on War

[Big Texan]

"Politics is the womb in which war develops"

"The political object is the goal, war is the means of reaching it, and the means can never be considered in isolation from their purposes"

"War is not an independent phenomenon, but the continuation of politics by different means"

von Clausewitz on War

Bingo!

[Fuji]

Bingo!

I'm a bit more well read than I let others believe.

[Big Texan]

I'm a bit more well read than I let others believe.

Yeah, I know what you mean! I'm not as dumb as my avatar looks either.

[TaiidanTomcat]

I'm a bit more well read than I let others believe.

Or as the Hopping pancake bunny would show

[niart17]

I'm a bit more well read than I let others believe.

Or at least saw Crimson Tide... (sorry, couldn't resist. all in fun )

[Fuji]

Yeah, I know what you mean! I'm not as dumb as my avatar looks either.

I'm sure Marshall Dillon is happy to hear that!

"All war is based on deception" - Sun Tzu

Or as the Hopping pancake bunny would show

Its funny how much that thing irritates certain folks

"An angry man will defeat himself in battle as well as in life" - Way of the Samurai

Or at least saw Crimson Tide... (sorry, couldn't resist. all in fun )

I'd forgotten that flick. Well done but all the internal conflict made me very uneasy. Tony Scott is a great director, but my favorite is still his brother, Ridley.

[Big Texan]

Yep, Matheeewww is shirley glad of that! LOL!