B-17 Hybrid in the shop

[100th BG]

Looking at the first photo provided by B17FAN, there are four jacks showing. The two on the right of the photo are using jacking cones on the front spar, one being slightly outboard of the inboard nacelle, and one where the wing meets the fuselage at bulkhead 4 (the one at the front of the bombay). The other two jacks visible are not on actual jack points. Most likely they are supporting the rear spar with some sort of plate between the jack and the spar. Since they were not being used to jack the airplane up but rather hold it in place, I doubt that was a problem. In the second photo, the rear of the front section (does that make sense?) is being supported with some wooden framing. I am sure it would still have the jacks under the front spar. This might be an easier route for you to go as you would only have to build four jacks instead of six. Here are a couple of photos borrowed from the Aero Detail book showing the jacking cones on the front spar:

You are very ambitious! I am really going to enjoy seeing this!

Edited August 30, 2010 by 100th BG

[Kostucha]

Steve & Karl,

Thank you very much! This project is a bit ambitious, however, I'm in a good spot to do it.

Not too long ago, thanks to Roy, I got my hands on one heck of a package deal with the B-17. The Visible B-17G, with a heck of a lot of extras. I'm only kicking myself because I had about 1 1/2 B-17G kits worth of spare parts, and I could have definitely used some parts from that before I sent it off. No worries though! With all those extra's, it'll be fairly easy to get this done right, but at the same time, give me enough for scratchbuilding to feed that appetite for this project.

The hope is to have ALL the research done before I finish off the Hurricane. In fact, I'm sure that knowing me, I'll slowly be plugging away at this kit to give myself a bit of a head start so that once the Hurri is done, that the majority of the groundwork will be completed.

It's all in the details. Here's a "short" laundry list of things I'm still hoping to learn:

1. The jack stands - from the pictures I can guess as to the dimensions roughly. Is there anything out there that shows what the actual colour of them would be, along with the size. I can see two different sizes of jackstands (inboard vs. outboard).

2. The scaffolding: the stuff I see in pictures, is it a standardized type of scaffolding that the gound mechanics used around the engines? For the most part they're similar, but is it a case of "if you've seen one, you've seen 'em all"?

3. Would the vertical stab and elevators going on be stored on the hangar floor simply stacked on the floor against a wall, or would they in fact be on a stand or table?

4. What do the joints of the vertical & horizontal stab look like where they join the fuselage?

5. What other key things would this hangar floor have present during an operation like this, reattaching two seperate pieces of fuselage?

6. What mission in particular did "Little Miss Mischeif" have her fuselage and outter Port wing section replaced?

7. The ball turret would be replaced as well, so how would a new ball turret assembly be supported prior to it being mounted inside the fuselage?

Aside from that, I think for the most part, I've got a lot of what I need. With things like the control cables in the fuselage, I'm under the impression that they in face would be run through once the fuselage halves were together, not that the waist section had their own cables that joined together at the mid point. Thus, in the radio compartment, there would be a notable length of each cable "spooled" up and waiting to be fed through, along with a few other things. Even though there is nothing hanging out from the no.6 bulkhead in either of the pictures, I can definitely picture it being there loosly in the radio compartment or underneath the floor (accessibly through the bomb-bay perhaps?) waiting to be put back in place.

And the trickiest part of the whole thing is going to make it look believable. I'm not quite sure if I want to seperate the outter port wing that was also replaced, or have it shown already attached to the wing. That could be fun in itself, but again, it's a matter of using creative licence and the idea that they wouldn't jack stand the front half of the fuselage if it were off balance with the outter portion of the port wing not yet attached. I'm going to go along with saying that it was replaced and put on prior to the rear fuselage portion of the repair being tackled.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Mark.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Kostucha

[Shawn M]

Ball turret:

http://www.twinbeech.com/sperry_ball_turret.htm

also get the "cool iris" image search plug in for your browser, I came up with LOADS of images for your items....

Edited August 30, 2010 by Shawn M

[100th BG]

Most ground equipment would have been OD, although in the first picture, one of those jacks is a lighter color and most likely would be yellow.

I'm sure you have seen those workstands in various photos and they appear to have been a standard item.

Another piece of equipment you would want around would be an air compressor for rivet guns.

Here are some wing sections stored on wooden racks, I would bet the same type of setup would be used for the stabs. Picture in "The Mighty Eighth in Color".

Here are some details of the vertical, and horizontal stabs as well as the rudder. These are from Edward Jablonski's "Flying Fortress".

A shot of a stabilizer being changed:

Edited August 30, 2010 by 100th BG

[100th BG]

Hope I am not using up too much space here! This is a diagram from the Parts Catalog for the B-17G showing the attach fittings on the rear of the airplane:

11 & 13 are for the horizontal stab, forward, 21 & 23 are hor aft, 19 & 20 are vert fwd, and 24 is vert aft.

[Kostucha]

WOW! I mean WOW!!!

Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off of the floor!!!

You guys are awesome! And Karl, you're not taking up space at all good Sir, if you've got more, post away!

Cheers Guys!

Mark.

[Kostucha]

From what I can see, it was mission 35 when she took the flak hit. I'm getting some mixed answers, but it all comes down to this... MANY sources say that she flew another 15 missions before crashlanding in France after the "grafting"... and the incident in question happened on 15 October '44...

There is this famous picture of her, which some say that is when she 'bellied in' after her 15 October '44 mission:

However! This was actually her belly landing in April of 1945.

Looking at crew pictures, there's a couple that are interesting, one being her crew in September of 1944, after 30 missions, and then again another crew shot listing it as completing 32 missions in AUGUST of '44. Same aircraft though... so that can be misleading in it's own.

There is something consistant though... her chin turret isn't metal, it's the same grey colour used on the OD/Grey scheme... a replacement?

There is also A LOT of fading in some pictures of her mission markers, where other shots show them crystal clear.

Research of a particular aircraft is sometimes hard indeed. Though there is this much that can be said:

Everything I've found points (for the most part) to 35 missions. It's the shots like above that cause argument, but as mentioned, that's not the belly landing after her 15 October mission. Hard and set facts:

-She never had the newer tail turret, always had the old style.

-She was serial # 42-97880, and the tail half was grafted from "Walleroo Mark II".

-Some day they were both DF*F, However, there's a big ole "B" that was overpainted forward of the starboard waist gun position, that can be seen (subtle, but still seen) through the paint

As for the construction of this kit, it's going to be fun in the sense that it'll be a sequential build of the kit. The Fuselage halves go from being 2 pieces to 8 (two forward halves, 2 mid, 2 tail, and 2 vertical stab) which will make this build that much easier given the detail/scratch building.

The front half get's built as the normal kit would be, plus the AM parts going in. The bomb bay itself will be opened, No. 1 engine opened up to show off the 1820, and that's that. The waist position will be essentially building a tube barren of a lot of detail, and the rear tail gun compartment will be fun to detail and leave on it's own as well.

All the finer details, like the ball turret, 50's, etc., won't be 'wasted effort' (or unseen detail), as it'll all be seperate. The best part too, is that those areas of low light can be shown off quite nicely by doing something as simple as inserting a flashlight or a 'hazard light' into the hands of the mechanics to shine on certain parts (Ie., the one guy standing in the bomb bay with the hazard light allows the bomb bay to be lit up and viewable through the open door in the radio operators room, and likewise for the center section).

Oh BOY this one is going to be SO MUCH FUN! And isn't that what this hobby is all about?

Again, thanks for the help!

Mark.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Kostucha

[Shawn M]

If you stick with it, this is going to be amazing!

[Kostucha]

I think if I put all the stuff I got from Roy to waste, he'll haunt me in my dreams... Hahaha. No, this one is going to be too much fun to leave alone. It'll take time, but it's going to be fun.

Cheers!

Mark.

[100th BG]

This is allegedly the interior of LMM showing the flak damage. I'm sure you are right about that color photo you have posted being after her last belly landing. With that much damage to the nose area, I'm sure it was a write-off.

Edited August 30, 2010 by 100th BG

[Kostucha]

Karl,

She definitely didn't belly in on that day (the 15th of October).

Here's another shot of the damaged fuselage on the 15th of October (sitting pretty on her MLG without issue):

And here's a shot showing her bellied in off the runway in April of 45 when her landing gear collapsed (prior to her being lifted by inflatable bags to be recovered like in the colour shot), and just after the landing. Same plane, different times:

So, it's definitely not the bomb count in that picture... Though many many sources say she went to another group (305th?) after she was repaired in April of 45, others suggest she was scrapped. That I don't know.

Cheers,

Mark.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Kostucha

[100th BG]

Ray Bowden in "Plane Names & Fancy Noses" shows on May 7th, she was with the 306th BG. That surprised me, I figured with the damage done by the chin turret and from the ball turret support being pushed through she would have been a write-off. Live and learn! Of course by May the war was over, so maybe they used her as a squadron hack...

Edited August 30, 2010 by 100th BG

[Kostucha]

I thought she was done for as well. 306th? Good to know.

This is a bomber with one very interesting history, that's for sure.

Odd though, the chin turret appears to be aluminium in the April crash landing, though crew pictures from August/September 44 show it as being grey. I'm trying to find out when it would have been replaced.

But, the astrodome isn't there. The mount (or bulge) is there, but the actual clear piece isn't. There is however a small protrusion in the side window on the por side of the nose just behind the cheek gun, and a whip up top on the nose too... Or am I seeing things?

[frankv74]

You ha e to remember men that it did not take an idiot to build or dismatal a B-17. Even the a Morron could this.

Frank

[Kostucha]

Suppose I should put up the links to the pictures I'm talking about eh? Hahaha... Brainfart.

These are both from the 91st BG website:

1st crew photo

2nd crew photo

hope this makes more sense as to what I mentioned up above.

And Frank, what are you getting at?

Cheers,

Mark.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Kostucha

[100th BG]

When Dave Klaus did his Pyn up decals, he said something about the 91st BG not using the astrodome. Browsing through "The Ragged Irregulars of Bassingbourn" there are a lot of airplanes without the astrodome including "Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby" and "Nine O Nine". Interesting. I do not know why, although it would make the pilots view a little better. I suppose it would also be more aerodynamic (slightly!).

Edited August 31, 2010 by 100th BG

[Kostucha]

That is interesting. So, everything but the plexiglass "bubble" is present there... And the rest capped off... Most interesting indeed.

Thanks Karl!

Cheers,

Mark.

[B-17fan]

91st BG astrodome info, straight from a former unit navigator:

"Astrodomes were needed to get sextant readings to get a celestial position in navigation. This was important for flight over water, where there was no way to see where the heck you were, since you had no ground reference to verify your air position.

As a navigator, I never took any sextant readings on any of my 35 combat missions, and I don't recall sextant use by any other navigators in our group. So the "dome" was generally replaced with a flat piece of Plexiglas, which provided an unobstuctive forward view for the pilots." A.J.Sinibaldo - Navigator - 323rd Sqd.

[100th BG]

That is good to know, makes sense. Wonder why more groups did not do that? I know what a pain that thing is to see around when you are taxiing. (I used to crew on Journey, in my Avatar I am doing a compression check when we were in Wichita Falls a number of years back.) I was also curious as to whether it was replaced with a piece of sheet metal or Plexiglas, now we know. Hey B-17 Fan, where are you? I see you have taken pictures of "Sentimental Journey" while she was in Springfield, and other stuff at Capitol airport. I am over in Decatur.

Edited August 31, 2010 by 100th BG

[Kostucha]

That is some great great information! Cheers!

[Kostucha]

Hello all,

Thanks for all the help thus far! This thread is hopefully going to be moved to the "In progress pics" section shortly. Before that, there's still a little research and acquirement left. Firstly, the research. I've found pretty much everthing I need, aside from one little section of the bomber. From the bulkhead that the tail wheel mounts onto to the tail gunners entry hatch. I can't find much here with regards to either information or pictures.

What I have found, leaves more questions than answers:

A. I found one picture of a G that has an internal hatch just forward of the tail gunners fuselage entry hatch. This was a round bulkhead with a square door/access hatch. Was this really present in all the bombers, or is this just a one of a kind thing?

B. The toilet. I have seen multiple schematics showing the toilet, but cannot find an actual picture of one. Was this a factory addition then that was removed once at the field, or were they really there (located pretty much right where the waist crew entry hatch is located). If it really was there, was it just a pipe with a seat and a hole at the bottom of the fuselage, or a chemical toilet?

Aside from that, and many, MANY pictures easily found of the bulkhead just aft of the waist crew entry hatch, I can't find much more on what was aft of this. I plan on buildng the tail wheel mounted in the aircraft, with it in the down position while the fuselage section is on the dolly, but don't know what else is there or any of the construction. Any help with regards to this would be greatly appreciated.

Now, as for what's been collected so far! Most of it is with the great help of Roy:

The kit itself:

The Eduard and True details sets:

The Verlinden Update Set and the Quickboost Radials (3 will be used here, with a 4th somewhere in the hangar for detail inside a crate (my wifes brilliant idea):

True details wheels (which will be altered to take most of the "weight" look out of them, both sets of Squadron Vac Form canopies, Quickboost Barrels and Masters Painting Masks:

What I still don't have that are on order are:

-Eduard 1/48 .50 Cal ammo & Ammo Belt PE set (I'll be using the Ammo Belts, not the ammo itself, that'll be spares for later works I suppose)

-Vector 1820G radial engine (for the exposed number 1 engine)

-Pynup Decals set containing "Little Miss Mischief"

-Masters 50 Cal gun barrels (I WONT be using the Quick Boost barrels, as most of the barrels will be removed from the cooling jackets anyway)

-Crap load of figures and extras (mostly scratch built) for the hangar.

Cheers!

Mark

Edited September 2, 2010 by Kostucha

[Shawn M]

Mark,

I have some 1/48 ground crew if you'd like them?

IIRC they are from Monograms P-61 in 1/48 scale.

[Kostucha]

Shawn,

Thank you very much. I really appreciate it, however I've also got that kit as well. There isn't a need for you to strip your kit of these figures when I've got the same ones. I'm very appreciative of your offer though, thank you.

Cheers.

Mark.

[Kostucha]

My barrels came in! My barrels came in! Problem is I'm on leave right now and they're back in Winnipeg... guess I'll have to wait for the barrels.

Cheers,

Mark.

[Kostucha]

Still sifting through many many pictures and although the restoration build pics showing the aft fuselage portion I'm wondering about are plentiful, I'm still looking to see what it would look like if the tail wheel assembly complete and other parts were present. Any help?

Cheers,

Mark.