Body Scanner Protest

[FlyingSnowmew]

oh BTW i can reccomend this film

[Jennings]

The world is going mad.

Pretty much, yup...

[11bee]

Until someone does some research (some real, clinical research - by a disinterested and non-financially connected organization) on radiation exposure from these things, they ain't scannin' my skinny ***. The stupid thing is, if this were to *actually* make flying safer it might be acceptable. But nobody has yet given any real evidence that this radiation exposure and personal privacy invasion does *anything* to make anybody safer. The rest of the world doesn't seem to need full body scans. The TSA is a joke from start to finish. They spend more time chatting with one another than they do doing anything security related that's worthy of the name.

J

So what do you suggest? The facts are that American is continually being targeted by some pretty bad dudes. They have made numerous attempts to blow up US aircraft and there is no evidence that they have decided to call it quits. If there is another technology that does a better job, then bring it on. I'd rather go through that scan and a pat down and any other steps if it means eliminating any chance of having my plane blown up. We are at war. The bad guys are not stupid and are continually looking for ways to down airliners. Things aren't going to get any better anytime soon It's a pain in the *** but I don't see any other options.

How would a full body scan not make things safer?

[Jennings]

How'd you like it if it were your mom or your wife or your sister plastered up there on the screen?

How can it *not* make things safer? Have you seen some of the people who work for TSA? I don't feel at *all* warm and fuzzy knowing some of the ones I've seen recently are on the job keeping me safe.

This is technology for the sake of saying we have the technology. And we haven't even gotten into the amount of radiation it's exposing people to. Sure, for a healthy person it may be perfectly safe. But what about the cancer survivor who has already had more than the recommended lifetime dose because of all the CT scans he's had (that would include ME). No thank you. Don't need any more.

J

[cheeley]

They are using some scanners at UK airports, you can choose that way to avoid the normal security.

No way I am doing it, not untill we know the level of exposure from these things 10 years down the line.

Julien

Good luck with that. As I understand it in the UK now, if you are selected for the backscatter scan you either comply or you don't get to fly. That's not to say that everyone has to be screened with one of these scanners, but if you are chosen for screening, you have to decide if your principles or concerns for privacy outweigh the need to get on that plane.

Assuming that the Great British Public will put up with it, it's not a great leap of the imagination to see in the long run a time that all passengers flying out of UK airports will be screened this way, with no option other than to 'comply or you don't fly'

At least you still have the option for a pat down in the US.

Scope or Grope I suppose....

[Raymond]

Scope or Grope I suppose....

love it

[loftycomfort]

I don't know if this counts as a terrorist win. But if I was Bin Laden, I'd be laughing like an @$$#0L3 now.

Terry

Edited November 11, 2010 by loftycomfort

[BadCop]

It's quite disgraceful how completely the terrorists have changed the US from a strong brave nation with respect for people's rights and liberties to one of fear where things like legalisation of 'enhanced interrogation techniques', snatching people off the street and into interrogation centres overseas, intruding into people's lives through surveillance they don't need a warrant to get and exhaustive (and largely non effective) security theater aren't getting people up in arms and protesting about it.

[Scooby]

So what's the alternative to not having body scanners or pat downs? Just go back to the way it was before and accept that some people will get on a plane with a bomb and every now and then a plane will go down? Isn't that a win for the terrorists just the same as making us jump through all of this security stuff? Personally, I'd rather they "win" by making be take off my shoes and go through some scanner than blow me and a bunch of other people up. Don't get me wrong, they will probably find a way around it, but why make it easy?

Regarding the Israeli experience, I have a couple of questions. What's the traffic like over there? How many highly trained spotters would we need to cover all of our airports in the same manner? Also, what's the accountability and legal system like over there compared to here? Could we do the same profiling they do without legal consequences? I think it's all fine to talk about what works in Israel, but can we just do exactly what they do in the US?

Intelligence is the best security. The bombs found in the last week were a perfect example of that.

The Israelis are very good at what they do, no question. They have foiled a lot of attacks.

And I know someone who did testing on the scanners. They actually miss a lot.

[svaz]

Think people need to just "man up" and accept that body scans are unfortunate part of the reality today's world. I find it strange that people would rather risk someone getting on a plane with a weapon than be inconvenienced. Really? Personally, I think they should make it mandatory for all flights. If someone doesn't want to do it, they don't fly. Take a car or take a boat. People who think they are somehow fighting the power and want to back off on security just so they don't get embarrassed or inconvenienced are just helping the terrorists win on my opinion.

I cannot more vehemently disagree. I think this is how freedoms (the 4th Amendment oddly enough comes immediately to mind) are lost and a police state is begun. IMHO, to embrace such intrusive tactics is to "outsource" one's personal safety to the State and relinquishing personally responsibility for convenience. Not exactly, 'manning up', IMHO.

But if we want ultimate safety, I've long proposed that everyone flies naked and gets a TASER in the magazine pocket with instructions on handling and operation right after the part where one is instructed on how to fasten one's seatbelt.

My $0.02 worth; please donate change to charity in my name.

[SBARC]

How would a full body scan not make things safer?

If someone is willing to die for his cause.....I think it is safe to assume he is willing to have an explosive surgically implanted sub-dermally to be remotely detonated with something as simple as a cell phone. Or take a female suicide bomber.....give her breast implants and insert a different explosive liquid in each implant with a sub-dermal valve she can activate to mix the explosive liquids.

These scanners will do very little to provide improved security. I avoid flying whenever possible and I prefer to drive.....airport security is excessive and sadly ineffective in my opinion as it is always geared to stop the last attack and never the next one. I don't worry about catching a plane that might be targeted by terrorists as the possibility is remote to say the least........but the hassle of the airport security does turn me off. I think I am much more likely to die in a plane crash than a terrorist attack on a plane.

But hey.....I enjoy driving and getting out and seeing the countryside......so plane travel is only necessary to me if I am crossing an ocean.

The beauty of these scanners is you have a choice of whether you want to use them. If you don't like them.....don't fly......if you need to fly over an ocean.....depart from a country that doesn't use the scanners (for Americans that would be Canada or Mexico etc).......there are always options. I'd never protest the use of these scanners as I have a choice whether I want to take a plane and submit to these scanners.

If you think these scanners will somehow stop terrorists from boarding planes........then you really don't understand how determined they are. People really need to come to grips with their fear and understand how remote the danger really is.

[Inquisitor]

But if we want ultimate safety, I've long proposed that everyone flies naked and gets a TASER in the magazine pocket with instructions on handling and operation right after the part where one is instructed on how to fasten one's seatbelt.

Lol you beat me to the flying naked proposal. Seems like that's where we're heading with all this stuff. Now I don't want to imagine some other action/reaction stuff that can happen inbetween. Taking as an example when they found someone with explosives in his shoes and started asking people to take them off for examination. Someone prepared a bomb and placed it in his underwear and you have the body scanner and enhanced pat down. Next time the body scanner and pat missed something because someone hid the separate bomb components in their stomach, anal or vag cavity, what's next? Compulsory puke, anal & vag probing?

Edited November 11, 2010 by Inquisitor

[Rank11]

I see both sides.. sure...

But are we all forgetting Total Recal? Come on, wasn't that real-time x-ray scanner awesome?

How old is that, and it's now one step closer to becoming common and every day. We truly are living in a sci-fi world, people!

I don't deny there are worrisome factors such as policing the people that perform the scans, improper things and whatnot, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

I don't believe for one second it's a cash cow industry. Rather, it's a liability nation. Spending this Billion now saves 20 Trillion in lawsuit settlements and wrongful-death claims a year from now.

P.S. It's fine to focus on the "most likely" threats now (aka profiling) but there are stupid people of every color, creed, and nationality. There are people so morally or spiritually empty they are willing to be corrupted into becoming suicide bombers or 1-way-warriors just to feel like they belong. You stop all the people that look like they're Muslim and the next thing Al Qaeda does is recruit people that look Jewish, or Christian. This proposal (profiling) is short-term and practical in only specific cases. We truly are a melting pot and you can't pick out by looks alone an upstanding US Citizen vs a poser with a stick of dynamite in his bum.

That is racial profiling. Completely different from behavioral profiling. They've already started recruiting white people (ie Jihad Jane) so there is nothing here that is new. Behavioral profiling treats all races equally. The machines will not identify anybody with a stick of dynamite stuck up in his bum. They don't even need to get anything through security since plenty of airport workers are not required to pass through security. And if you pay attention to the newspapers, you know that every 18 months or so, some sort of smuggling or drug ring made up of airport workers at one of the major airports gets busted by the feds. So you already have some real risky morally and spirtually empty individuals with unchecked access to your aircraft. And they are in the process of doing absolutely nothing about that. How does that make you feel? And you may not feel it is such a big deal for you to show them your naked body or have your scrotum yanked, since you can just man up, but what about your family? How do you feel about telling your 6 year old son to let that bearded guy yank his scrotum or your wife to let them fondle her breasts and push their hands up her inner thigh until they meet "resistance." Is that acceptable to you? Is that what this country has been reduced to? If so, then the terrorists have already won.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Rank11

[BadCop]

There are people so morally or spiritually empty they are willing to be corrupted into becoming suicide bombers or 1-way-warriors just to feel like they belong.

I'd argue that anyone willing to lay down their lives so murderously and hatefully has been whipped up by a spiritual and religious fervor into at least believing that they are doing a completely moral deed. However you are right on the money with your comment about them wanting to belong to something bigger than themselves.

If people had the courage to critically examine the rules of morality 'given' to them from a higher authority and examine it against logic and principles of human rights, rather than just say 'My God/Leader/whatever' says it's the right thing to do' there would be far fewer people willing to perform such terrible acts.

[Isaac]

I hate flying because of things like this. I saw a little girl get patted down. Seriously? A 4 year old?

I'll take my chances.

[Karl Sander]

Might as well get a reach around if I have to pony up for bag fees.

QFT!

I cannot more vehemently disagree. I think this is how freedoms (the 4th Amendment oddly enough comes immediately to mind) are lost and a police state is begun. IMHO, to embrace such intrusive tactics is to "outsource" one's personal safety to the State and relinquishing personally responsibility for convenience. Not exactly, 'manning up', IMHO.

ALSO quoted for truth.

This isn't what I signed up to fight for. If this is how we're going to live can't help but think I could have found better ways to spend the years of my life I've spent deployed.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Karl Sander

[johnny_7713]

So what do you suggest? The facts are that American is continually being targeted by some pretty bad dudes. They have made numerous attempts to blow up US aircraft and there is no evidence that they have decided to call it quits. If there is another technology that does a better job, then bring it on. I'd rather go through that scan and a pat down and any other steps if it means eliminating any chance of having my plane blown up. We are at war. The bad guys are not stupid and are continually looking for ways to down airliners. Things aren't going to get any better anytime soon It's a pain in the *** but I don't see any other options.

How would a full body scan not make things safer?

Well for starters, there's been quite some discussion in the Netherlands about full body scans as well since they installed the first test machines something like 18 months ago, i.e. before the Christmas Day attempt to blow up the flight from Amsterdam to Denver (or was it Detroit, I forget). One of the questions asked at the time was: would a full body scan have found these explosives? The answer.... well, maybe. So so much for making you safer. I also seriously doubt whether its feasible to hide enough explosive power to bring down a plane in your underwear. Planes can survive pretty big holes (google Aloha Airlines for an example).

How would a full body scan not make things safer? Well there has already been one case of the scan pictures being saved onto a hard-disk. I'm not a great fan of the 'won't someone think of the children!!!' argument, but are you happy that someone might save a picture of a teenage girl for his/her personal enjoyment later?

As a counter example, lets take trains: In the 1980ies there were 2 train hijackings in the Netherlands, which resulted in several deaths. In 2004 we had the Madrid train bombings. Want to know what security checks were added for train passengers as a result? The answer is: none. If I want to board a train I walk onto a platform and get in. In about half of the train rides I take I have to present my ticket at some point during the ride, but that's it for security. Yet despite the complete lack of security, and the hundreds of people on board a train, trains are not constantly being blown up (in fact I know of no succesfull or attempted train-bomb-plots since Madrid). To me that suggests that maybe airport security is not the way to go. X-ray hand luggage and make people pass through a metal detector: fine, but I've yet to see convincing evidence that more 'security measures' will actually make you safer.

[tornado64]

well this all depends on if you want to fly safe or if you don't !!

i was trained many years ago on terrorist search techniques for northern ireland in the british army !!

the biggest thing we were told was " embarassment will kill you !!"

on our first search through being bashful and not doing a thourough search and i mean ( one guy was searched by 30 squaddies one after another !! )

we missed !! 1x browning automatic pistol , 1x loaded rifle magazine , 3x bullets , 1x knife

most hidden in areas they knew lazy searching techniques and bashfulness wouldn't find them

the most frightening was the browning pistol hid in the groin area !!

remember the underpants bomb ??

a terrorist will use the least likeley to be searched area (the groin !! ) to his or her advantage !

if you want to fly and be truly safe there is no room for being shy we will have to change attitudes if we want to be truly safe

[tornado64]

would a full body scan have found these explosives? The answer.... well, maybe. So so much for making you safer. I also seriously doubt whether its feasible to hide enough explosive power to bring down a plane in your underwear. Planes can survive pretty big holes (google Aloha Airlines for an example).

.

that's pretty lame !! there were sixty five injured and one fatality in that , lucky it wasn't a total loss

so = still unacceptable

the real question is !! would you rather loose your modesty or your life , i know wich i'd pick every time

id rather have my pen*s on every internet site in the world and be embarrased and be able to laugh at it later !!

[gonzalo]

well this all depends on if you want to fly safe or if you don't !!

i was trained many years ago on terrorist search techniques for northern ireland in the british army !!

the biggest thing we were told was " embarassment will kill you !!"

on our first search through being bashful and not doing a thourough search and i mean ( one guy was searched by 30 squaddies one after another !! )

we missed !! 1x browning automatic pistol , 1x loaded rifle magazine , 3x bullets , 1x knife

most hidden in areas they knew lazy searching techniques and bashfulness wouldn't find them

the most frightening was the browning pistol hid in the groin area !!

remember the underpants bomb ?

a terrorist will use the least likeley to be searched area (the groin !! ) to his or her advantage !

if you want to fly and be truly safe there is no room for being shy we will have to change attitudes if we want to be truly safe

What you embarrassing pat down missed the metal detector would have found.

[gonzalo]

that's pretty lame !! there were sixty five injured and one fatality in that , lucky it wasn't a total loss

so = still unacceptable

the real question is !! would you rather loose your modesty or your life , i know wich i'd pick every time

id rather have my pen*s on every internet site in the world and be embarrased and be able to laugh at it later !!

I understand what you are saying but this isn't about embarrassing searches, it's about losing civil rights. You maybe able to laugh at your *****, but it's not funny when perverts are masturbating to pictures of children taken from the scans. Say what you will but as soon as someone says it can't happen someone is already trying hard to make it happen. It has already happened in Lagos. We all have the basic human right to not be humiliated. My teenage girls are embarrassed to use that scanner. The alternative is to get felt up? No one should be afraid of what is suppose to make us safer.

[johnny_7713]

well this all depends on if you want to fly safe or if you don't !!

i was trained many years ago on terrorist search techniques for northern ireland in the british army !!

the biggest thing we were told was " embarassment will kill you !!"

on our first search through being bashful and not doing a thourough search and i mean ( one guy was searched by 30 squaddies one after another !! )

we missed !! 1x browning automatic pistol , 1x loaded rifle magazine , 3x bullets , 1x knife

most hidden in areas they knew lazy searching techniques and bashfulness wouldn't find them

the most frightening was the browning pistol hid in the groin area !!

remember the underpants bomb ??

a terrorist will use the least likeley to be searched area (the groin !! ) to his or her advantage !

if you want to fly and be truly safe there is no room for being shy we will have to change attitudes if we want to be truly safe

There is no such thing as truly safe, ever. Life always has risks and anyone who tells you otherwise is employing marketing speak at best or lying at worst. The only plane that can't crash is the plane that can't fly and the only way to be entirely sure that terrorists will never board a plane, is to not let anyone board a plane.

Once you realise that 100% safety is impossible you have to decide on what level of safety you want to settle, and you have to realise that extra safety comes with extra costs. In this case full body scans / enhanced pat downs might make us more safe (as I mentioned before its unclear whether the scans would have detected the 'underpants bomber') but the cost is that we have to let ourselves be groped or let someone look at our naked bodies, with the risk that he'll keep the pictures afterwards. Personally I'm perfectly satisfied with the level of safety provided by the old fashioned hand luggage X-Ray and metal detector combo, and so are most other airline passengers apparently or far fewer people would fly.

The point is you are not trading people looking at or feeling your private parts for your life, you are trading people looking at or feeling your private parts for the chance of you dieing in a terrorist attack going from 2 in a billion to 1 in a billion (numbers made up on the spot, but probably in the right order of magnitude). Personally I find 2 in a billion perfectly acceptable odds if that means I don't have to allow myself to be groped.

Also trains manage to avoid being blown up just fine without requiring all passengers to be groped, perhaps aviation security experts should take a look at what they're doing right.

P.S. Regarding my Aloha Airlines example: the point is that planes can survive pretty big holes. I remember a podcast by a physics professor explaining that the hole that would have been made by the shoe bomber would have been pretty small, unfortunately I can't find it at the moment.

[tornado64]

What you embarrassing pat down missed the metal detector would have found.

wouln't have picked up glass wrapped in cardboard or some explosives !! the clue is in " metal detector !! "

scan every time for me !! far more efficient !!

plus more security equals more employment bring it on thanks !!

there are things that each method can and will miss

the more methods we are subjected to the safer we are simple !!

i'd rather die knowing everything possible was done to try and keep me safe , than live nervously worrying that they were being laxidasical !!

such is life at present !!

i'm sure if you asked the 9/11 victims if they'd back the plans and be happy with them so they could see thier relatives again

there wouldn't be many uhhhms and arrrghs !!

[Rank11]

that's pretty lame !! there were sixty five injured and one fatality in that , lucky it wasn't a total loss

so = still unacceptable

the real question is !! would you rather loose your modesty or your life , i know wich i'd pick every time

id rather have my pen*s on every internet site in the world and be embarrased and be able to laugh at it later !!

The real question is where do you draw the line? Will an anal cavity search each time you enter an airport be where you finally draw the line? Wouldn't the world be much safer if the government stationed security personnel at each home's front door so that the occupants can be cavity searched before they're allowed to leave their homes to make sure they are not harboring anything dangerous before they enter public areas where they can hurt others?

After the 9/11 attacks, our leadership made much of the concept that the best way everybody can stick a middle finger at the terrorists was to go on and live as they have always done, instead of hiding scared. What has happened? How have we lost sight of that? Why should we even fight the terrorists if we are just going to dismantle ourselves the ideals that we've always lived by, that the terrorists despise and want to destroy so much. How can the dismantlement of the 4th Amendment of our Constitution and the ignorance of all legal precedence regarding strip searches not be a victory for the terrorists? Do we not take the moral position that we are better than those people by our supposed respect of the rules of law?

You know what? If I truly wanted to be safe, I wouldn't get out of bed each morning. But I do roll out of bed each morning, brush my teeth, and put on my pants so I can go outside. So obviously, I guess I do not feel a need to truly be safe. Nothing in this world that is worthwhile comes for free nor without risk. If you want a world free of risk, then it won't be a worthwhile world.

[tornado64]

There is no such thing as truly safe, ever. Life always has risks and anyone who tells you otherwise is employing marketing speak at best or lying at worst. The only plane that can't crash is the plane that can't fly and the only way to be entirely sure that terrorists will never board a plane, is to not let anyone board a plane.

if we kept that attitude we wouldn't be far past the dc3

air travel is relatively new and to some degree still evolving

any technology that improves life and safety in the chain is most welcome

i agree it may not be perfect !!

but niether are pat downs or metal detectors

more can be gained from one to one observations watching body language etc but there isn't always the time for that

also the security forces are not always right and can make mistakes they are fallible like any other human