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F-5ski... interesting historical side note on the F-5A..


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Apparently during the development of the MiG-23, the Soviets got hold of an F-5A which they flew off against the MiG-21 and the MiG-23 prototypes. The F-5 won so handily that apparently there was a lobby to reverse engineering it and copying it ala the B-29/Tu-4! Hadn't ever heard that before. It's mentioned in the Yefim Gordon MiG-23 book.

Wouldn't *that* make an interesting what-if history??

J

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But according to Top Gun, they DID copy it and called it the MiG-28! Maverick and Iceman went up against some back in 1986! ;)
See, I KNEW the Top Gun movie was historically accurate :thumbsup:

All the pieces start to fall into place, eh ?

Gregg

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What a cool subject for the new AFV kit. Had no idea that the Russians actually flew one in their own markings.

I'm also surprised that they were that impressed by the F-5. Didn't think it was any special when it came to speed / maneuverability.

BTW, the F-5 shown in the pictures above is an E model, not the A that Jennings referenced in the lead post.

Edited by 11bee
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Yefim Gordon's book on the MiG-21 also went into some detail on the MiG-21 vs. an F-5.

I recall reading the outcome being pretty much what Jennings quoted.

There were also several photos of the F-5 and the Russian pilots included.

That was an F-5E that came from Vietnam in 1975. The F-5A had to be several years prior to that, but AFAIK there is no information on such an airplane in the book on US a/c in the USSR/Russia. The F-5E is a story in itself, but this F-5A story (it specifically says F-5A) seems even more interesting.

J

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It was F-5E 73-00687, coded 10 Red in Soviet service. It arrived in crates at the Akhtubinsk flight test center and was used in a test programme involving 35-40 flights in summer 1976. Three Soviet pilots flew it and according to the testimony of one of them the F-5 won every single mock fight against MiG-21s and 23s.

It was then dismantled and transferred to the industry, it's now on display in Moscow, in a technical school IIRR.

f-5e_210.jpg

f-5e_510.jpg

Edited by Booga
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The F-5E was cut into pieces on the dock in Vietnam (not disassembled - chopped with a saw). It's amazing the Soviets were able to put it back together enough to make it flyable. A real testament to their resourcefulness. I plan on doing a model of this bird someday.

I'm still intrigued by the F-5A story though...

J

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I'm still intrigued by the F-5A story though...

J

As am I.

I could see an F-5A being delivered to the Soviets after the fall of SVN but don't understand how they could have obtained one years earlier unless their was some hush-hush espionage or one was shot down and somehow came down lightly enough where it could be re-assembled and repaired.

Their were rumors that the Soviets obtained a USN F-4 just this way. The one picture I saw was not conclusive on whether it was a real F-4 or a very convincing mock-up.

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I don't doubt they could have gotten one by various means. There were Royal Libyan AF airplanes floating around, and there were F-5As in Iran, right next door. The story remains to be told...

Someone said they were surprised at how good the Soviets found the F-5E in 1976. Compared to Soviet designs of the same era, American machines were (to them) a marvel of ergonomics, intelligent design, ease of maintenance and accessibility, etc. The F-5E had, and still has, superb maneuverability, and very respectable thrust-to-weight ratio. It remains one of the most maneuverable jet fighters ever made - especially considering it didn't require a computer to control it. Visibility was outstanding compared to the MiG family. It pretty much waxed the tail of everything the USSR had in 1976, and for some years thereafter.

J

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The thing is though, the Soviets tended not to like everything about western aircraft design since we tended to make machines that required more day to day maintenance on the front line then Soviet jets. They believed the plane should be rugged and flyable for a certain number of hours with no maintenance until it was time to send the plane back to a full maintenance facility to do the major service that US bases could do on a daily basis. The F-5 by comparison was probably built closer to Soviet maintenance requirements then anything else in the US arsenal since it was intended for use by second and third world countries with limited facilities. As such, it was very simple to maintain in comparison to say an F-4 Phantom (which many say could be a major headache to maintain).

I would be curious to know if astronaut Tom Stafford ever chatted with any of the Soviet test pilots who flew F-5s. Reason being is one of Tom's assignments before joining NASA as an astronaut was test flying the T-38 Talon for the USAF. It was his influence that got the T-38 selected as the jet NASA astronauts use for jet proficiency and of course its design evolved into the F-5 series. And since Tom learned to speak Russian for command of the Apollo side of the Apollo Soyuz Test Project mission, he could speak to Russians in their own language.

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I wouldn't bet that even in the détente-soaked days of 1974/75 when ASTP was coming to fruition that the Soviets were very forthcoming about any US hardware they had in their possession. The F-5E, at the time of ASTP in June of 1975, was probably still in Vietnam, or possibly on its way to the USSR in the belly of a cargo ship. If they had an F-5A in their mitts, my guess is that nobody on the Soviet side of ASTP either knew anything about it, or if they did, would have been willing to tell about it for fear of being shot.

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I'm not shocked the the Reds liked the F-5. As stated earlier in the thread, they liked maintainable, simple and rugged hardware, and the F-5 certainly fit the bill. Its transient maneuverability was better than the straightline speed of the Mig-21 and -23, and its use in US adversary squadrons certainly speaks to its capabilities. Just imagine if the Tigershark had made it into production. The commies would have wet their Marxist shorts!

Edited by robert61267
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I'm still intrigued by the F-5A story though...

I'm pretty sure that Gordon simply got details mixed up with the F-5E story as both look very similar (tested against MiG-21s and 23s etc). It's Gordon after all :rofl:

The F-5E had a direct influence on the design of the Su-25 but I'm not aware of plans to produce a copy.

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I'm pretty sure that Gordon simply got details mixed up with the F-5E story as both look very similar (tested against MiG-21s and 23s etc). It's Gordon after all :wub:

The F-5E had a direct influence on the design of the Su-25 but I'm not aware of plans to produce a copy.

I don't think so, since the timelines are different. The MiG-23 was in widespread service by 1976 when the F-5E was flown in the USSR. He states that it was the MiG-23 prototypes that were flown against an F-5A. That had to be earlier, even before the F-5E was in service.

J

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He states that it was the MiG-23 prototypes that were flown against an F-5A. That had to be earlier, even before the F-5E was in service.

As I said, this Gordon, with all its loopholes, errors, approximations and contradictions. His books, including the MiG-23/27 one, are simply compilations of Russian sources, and AFAIR none of my Russian MiG-23 books (4 of them) mention testing the prototypes against F-5s.

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Well I am not saying Stafford would have conversed during ASTP, but he has maintained contacts after his NASA days as he has been consulted by the Russians several times for things related to the ISS program when it was just getting started. In those early days after the Soviet Union fell, the Russians were more open about some of their programs then they are today.

Things seem a little fishy to me as well concerning the F-5A possibly being flown against the MiG-23 prototypes and considered superior. One thing lacking on the A model compared to the E was a radar system as the A was intended to be a daytime fighter and attack aircraft. Even the MiG-21 had a radar in its nose spike and the MiG-23 fielded a radar of similar capability to that found on early model F-4 Phantoms. The E model in many regards was more capable as it incorporated several of the refinements to earlier F-5s and included a radar system. Maybe the Soviets did fly an F-5A, but I don't think they would necessarily rave about it as much as the E model as in some regards, the early to mid production MiG-21s had more potential combat capability then the A model. In a direct flyoff, I don't doubt an A model could outmanuever a MiG-21, but a radar set means a MiG-21 could likely pull off an attack before an F-5A could even see it unless one was equipped with a RHAW set.

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The book title translating from Russian is "Su-27. Part 2. Birth of a legend" so I believe the F-5E was used by the Soviets as a study platform, or concept for new generation Russian fighters, meaning "future fighters" that came out during the 80's.

SouthViper

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I don't doubt they could have gotten one by various means. There were Royal Libyan AF airplanes floating around, and there were F-5As in Iran, right next door. The story remains to be told...

Someone said they were surprised at how good the Soviets found the F-5E in 1976. Compared to Soviet designs of the same era, American machines were (to them) a marvel of ergonomics, intelligent design, ease of maintenance and accessibility, etc. The F-5E had, and still has, superb maneuverability, and very respectable thrust-to-weight ratio. It remains one of the most maneuverable jet fighters ever made - especially considering it didn't require a computer to control it. Visibility was outstanding compared to the MiG family. It pretty much waxed the tail of everything the USSR had in 1976, and for some years thereafter.

J

And as I recall reading somewhere, the F-5 gave the F-16 a run for it money when it first appeared. It excelled in many ways, one of which that sticks in my memory was its radar system. It could spool up, be flight ready and allow the F-5 to be airborne well before the F-16.

I can imagine the Russians had trouble getting their minds around it.

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