Model Master Dullcote

[Michel C]

I used MM Dullcote (that's Italery Model Master, #1560, not Testors) to spray the RLM 66 cockpit interior of my Lufwaffe bird and the result was not a disaster but close. First I sprayed straight from the bottle at low pressure, just a light coat. This resulted in a white haze (snow in the pit?). I then thinned it with enamel thinner (the one I buy from my local hobby shop to thin enamel paints with) and gave it a heavy coat at high pressure. The coat was wet, probably too wet. The good thing is that the white haze disappeared. The not so good thing but not altogether bad is that once dry the surface had mottled. I say not too bad because the mottling broke the color monotone and doesn't look too unreal. The bad thing is that in corners, where the varnish had pooled, there was a white deposit, as if the cockpit had been given a white wash. It's not everywhere but there is enough of it to be annoying. I have to find a way to get rid of it.

But my question is: what did I do wrong? There is undoubtedly something wrong with the way I used the stuff. So let's go over the basics: should the Dullcote be thinned or not? If yes, with what? Apply it at low pressure or high? Light or heavy coat?

By the way, when I tested it on a piece of scrap painted with Gunze RLM 02 it resulted in a perfect matt finish. No haze, no whitening. This was done with the stuff thinned, applied at high pressure, heavy coat.

How do you master that beast called Dullcote?

By the way, any general comments about varnishes or suggestions about using other brands are welcome too.

[Hooker169]

I had that happen once before on an MH-47E, but I suspect it was because I was rushing. I painted, futured, decaled, futured, and dullcoated all in the same 24 hour span. I believe that the dullcoat was effected by the not yet cured future. Are you using acrylics on the cockpit tub? If so that might be the problem since future is also acrylic based. I now give a full 24 hours cure time in between different coats.

As far as fixing it, I too sparayed over it heavy and it seemed to subdue the overall damage but the effect was actually a dusty worn look which was appealing since my Chinook was modeled as a special ops bird coming back from the sand box. I guess you could strip and redo but since its the pit I would prob just deal with it.

[DutyCat]

How do you master that beast called Dullcote?

I have been using Dullcote for a million years and consider it the finest flat finish ever. Just beautiful.

It sounds like you put it on too thick. Using enamel thinner didn't help. The mottled results I have seen from rattle can use as well.

Here is what you do and it is pretty much a guarantee it will work:

Thin it about 50/50 with any hardware lacquer thinner. Thin is good.

Set the PSI to be what ever works to get "normal" atomization....maybe about 20. Not too high. You don't need a cloud of Dullcate swirling around because you are spraying at 30 psi!.

Spray away! That is it. When it hits the model, it should dry almost immediately.

If this doesn't work for you, I'll be shocked.

Edited November 24, 2010 by DutyCat

[Michel C]

Hooker169,

The base coat is Gunze acrylics. This was given a coat of Future before the wash. After the wash the Dullcote was applied. By that time the Future had dried for 48 hours so I don't think the problem lies with the Future or drying time.

I'm with you on just dealing with it and moving ahead. I now covered the white spots with some more brown wash and that's good enough. The result is a very dirty, worn looking pit but that's OK with me. I just want to be sure of what I'm doing when I do the whole model.

DutyCat,

Thanks for the how-to. I'm out of lacquer thinner and shops are closed now so I'll have to wait for tomorrow to buy some and then give it a try. I'll let you know if it worked.

Btw, I've read somewhere on the net that you can apply Dullcote with a brush. But I think that was for figures. I tried it on a flat piece of scrap and no matter how much or little I loaded the brush it left stroke marks. But that was straight from the bottle. If thinned, would brush be an option? I'm thinking of small parts where using a paint brush would be more convenient than breaking out the air-brush.

[DutyCat]

If thinned, would brush be an option? I'm thinking of small parts where using a paint brush would be more convenient than breaking out the air-brush.

For small parts, like the inside of cockpits, it should be okay.

[C-130CrewChief]

I thin it with laquer thinner about 50 - 50. Been using it for a long time. never fogged on me.

[Michel C]

Thanks for all the input, guys, but I'm still having problems.

Dutycat: sorry to say but I did what you said and, hmm... it still fogged.

I used lacquer thinner at a 50/50 ratio and sprayed at medium pressure. Actullay I tried all pressure settings and paint feed. No matter what I did, in the end there was a fine layer of what looks like white dust. It's annoying. Its especially apparent when held obliquely to the light. Perhaps the dullcote I use is not the same formula as yours? I repeat, mine is Model Master, Italeri. Or, I'm doing something really wrong.

I tried using a paint brush but even thinned it still left brush marks. But never mind that. My problem is the spraying. Any other ideas?

[Spruemeister]

How's the humidity where you are, and what is your air source? As DutyCat mentioned, its not enamel. It's lacquer so always use lacquer thinner. That also is probably too hot for topcoating acrylics. It honoestly sounds like you trapped some moisture in there.

Rick L.

[Michel C]

Rick,

This is Athens, Greece, the warmest November since 1960. There is a south wind blowing all the time and humidity is at an average of 75%. Yep, that's like summer!

My air source is a compressor. Its a simple design, no water-trap.

Regarding topcoating acrylics with lacquers, I tested the Dullcote on other base coats such enamels and it fogged the same so I don't think it's the base coat that's at fault.

[Sebastijan]

I use Dullcoat as well. Are you sure you stir the bottle well? The white dust is part of the lacquer (my bet is that the dust makes it so nicely flat) and after a while you'll see the stuff start appearing at the bottom as a residue. Make sure you always thoroughly stir the bottle before thining it (I usually thin in 60/40 thinner/dullcoat ratio)...

[Michel C]

I use Dullcoat as well. Are you sure you stir the bottle well? The white dust is part of the lacquer (my bet is that the dust makes it so nicely flat) and after a while you'll see the stuff start appearing at the bottom as a residue. Make sure you always thoroughly stir the bottle before thining it (I usually thin in 60/40 thinner/dullcoat ratio)...

Yes, I stir the stuff well. After some more experimenting and still reaching the same results I switched brands. Using Gunze Matt Clear thinned with Tamiya acrylic thinner got me a completely flat finish with no fogging, no whitening. So I guess that's what I'm going to use from now on. Plus, I was told that Dullcote yellows with age. I don't know if that's true.

[scooter]

I have been using Dullcote for a million years and consider it the finest flat finish ever. Just beautiful.

Here is what you do and it is pretty much a guarantee it will work:

Thin it about 50/50 with any hardware lacquer thinner. Thin is good.

Thanks - just wanted to confirm that.. So for Testors Dullcote its a 50/50 to Testors thinner. Correct?

[DutyCat]

Thanks - just wanted to confirm that.. So for Testors Dullcote its a 50/50 to Testors thinner. Correct?

No. It works best with lacquer thinner, not the thinner Testors makes for their enamel paints. Any department store grade lacquer thinner from Lowes, Home Depot, or Wal-Mart should do. However, do not use the new "green friendly" stuff that is being marketed in some stores now. That stuff is crap.

Again, I am talking about Testors Dullcote in the large square bottles with purple label, although the Model Master version in the smaller round bottles on the Model Master paint rack is the same formula.

plus

=

I can't make it any simpler than that! Except for one thing. I have noticed that here lately Testors is putting less flattening agent in the bottle. I don't know if it is on purpose or a quality control issue. Sometimes there is even variation when comparing bottles at the hobby shop. So if you end up with a "low octane" bottle and want it even more flat, buy two bottles and use the flattening agent in one to spike up the other.

Edited January 8, 2012 by DutyCat

[DutyCat]

Plus, I was told that Dullcote yellows with age. I don't know if that's true.

Never had that happen to me. Besides, the stuff they sell now has very little amber tint in the bottle. You are putting it on very thin as well at 50/50. You should be fine.

Edited January 8, 2012 by DutyCat

[Mike W.]

I've used this stuff for years and have found that there are always small particles that wont dissolve no matter how much you mix it. The only way to get rid of them is to strain it. I buy large strainers designed for 5 gallon buckets from Home Depot and cut them as needed. Any hardware store should carry them but if not, I've read that panty hose will work, too.

I do this with all of my paint but when using Dullcoat or Future + Tamiya Flat, I'll strain it at least twice. It may be overkill, but I've never had a problem with white specks or frosting.

[DutyCat]

I've used this stuff for years and have found that there are always small particles that wont dissolve no matter how much you mix it. The only way to get rid of them is to strain it. I buy large strainers designed for 5 gallon buckets from Home Depot and cut them as needed. Any hardware store should carry them but if not, I've read that panty hose will work, too.

I do this with all of my paint but when using Dullcoat or Future + Tamiya Flat, I'll strain it at least twice. It may be overkill, but I've never had a problem with white specks or frosting.

Seriously? I have NEVER had this happen to me. From my experience over 25 years, it couldn't be more foolproof.

[scooter]

No. It works best with lacquer thinner, not the thinner Testors makes for their enamel paints.

Again, I am talking about Testors Dullcote in the large square bottles with purple label, although the Model Master version in the smaller round bottles on the Model Master paint rack is the same formula.

Thanks - yes that is the dullcote I am using, so off to Lowes I go..

One final question then.. I want the coat to be as flat as possible, so is 50/50 the best mix for this, or 70/30..etc?

Adam

[DutyCat]

Thanks - yes that is the dullcote I am using, so off to Lowes I go..

One final question then.. I want the coat to be as flat as possible, so is 50/50 the best mix for this, or 70/30..etc?

Adam

That won't matter. You are just looking for it to spray properly. Keep it at 50/50. Make sure your pressure is 15 to 20. You are thinning it quite a bit, and you don't want to create a cloud of dullcote. Also, make sure you are holding your brush at the right distance from the model. If you do it right, it should go on wet, but dry almost immediately. It will not build up either if you go over the same spot a few times. Because it is lacquer , it will lay down very thin and much better than an enamel.

About the flatness. If you have a bottle with enough flattening agent, say maybe the bottom 1/4 to 1/3 of the bottle before it is mixed, it should be pretty much dead flat. If you have a bottle with not as much flattening agent, then do as I mentioned above and spike one bottle with some flattening agent of the other.

Let me know how it goes.

[scooter]

That won't matter. You are just looking for it to spray properly. Keep it at 50/50. Make sure your pressure is 15 to 20. You are thinning it quite a bit, and you don't want to create a cloud of dullcote. Also, make sure you are holding your brush at the right distance from the model. If you do it right, it should go on wet, but dry almost immediately. It will not build up either if you go over the same spot a few times. Because it is lacquer , it will lay down very thin and much better than an enamel. About the flatness. If you have a bottle with enough flattening agent, say maybe the bottom 1/4 to 1/3 of the bottle before it is mixed, it should be pretty much dead flat. If you have a bottle with not as much flattening agent, then do as I mentioned above and spike one bottle with some flattening agent of the other.

Let me know how it goes.

Well, after following your instructions, the result was OUTSTANDING. I will send photos on completion.

Thank you very much.

Adam

[DutyCat]

Well, after following your instructions, the result was OUTSTANDING. I will send photos on completion.

Thank you very much.

Adam

Happy to be of service. Just call me Dr. Dutycat. lol

[Netz]

I also use the Testors brand, I did experience the snow problem a few times, I cannot pin point the cause, but spraying with pure Lacquer thinner fixed it right away.

I usually start out with a much thinned D/C to Lacquer thinner mix 60/40 or less, and usually add more Lacquer as I go till the final cote is almost pure Lacquer thinner.

Curt

Edited January 13, 2012 by Netz

[Spectre711]

Again, I am talking about Testors Dullcote in the large square bottles with purple label,

Are they still making this bottle because I can't find it at all in my area and I didn't see it on their web site?

[DutyCat]

Are they still making this bottle because I can't find it at all in my area and I didn't see it on their web site?

Yes, they are, and it is still on their web site. They just don't show a picture of it. Here is the link.

The clue is the sku# 1160x (1160 is on the purple label) and the volume, which is 1 3/4 oz.

Good stuff. You really cannot fault Testors much on their MM line of paints and the lacquer clear cotes. The spray cans; well, that is another story. They could take some lessons from Tamiya.

[The Dude]

Heck you all are making it to difficult. I am lazy (just ask any of my local modeler buddies, lol) and just decant the rattle can modelmaster clears into an empty mixing bottle and then pour it into the airbrush tinlet. I shoot it at about 20psi and never, ever had a problem. The rattle can stuff is already premixed for airbush use so no need to fiddle with thinning ratios plus you won't get the orangepeel if you were to use a rattle can, works everytime. Just tossing in my .02 cents, hth.

[Michel C]

No. It works best with lacquer thinner, not the thinner Testors makes for their enamel paints. Any department store grade lacquer thinner from Lowes, Home Depot, or Wal-Mart should do. However, do not use the new "green friendly" stuff that is being marketed in some stores now. That stuff is crap.

Again, I am talking about Testors Dullcote in the large square bottles with purple label, although the Model Master version in the smaller round bottles on the Model Master paint rack is the same formula.

plus

=

I can't make it any simpler than that! Except for one thing. I have noticed that here lately Testors is putting less flattening agent in the bottle. I don't know if it is on purpose or a quality control issue. Sometimes there is even variation when comparing bottles at the hobby shop. So if you end up with a "low octane" bottle and want it even more flat, buy two bottles and use the flattening agent in one to spike up the other.

Is the bottle with the pink label the same stuff as this:

That's the stuff that was giving me the whitening problem, which caused me to start this post. I have since switched to Gunze acrylic clear but I still have the bottle and hear so much good stuff about dullcote that I am willing to give it a try again. But let's be sure it's the same stuff that you guys use.